It seems that Games Workshop is smacking down fansites with more copywrite takedown orders. This includes old, out of print, never to be printed again material that brings people into the hobby, and would indirectly net GW fans and cash on new purchases.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/28/games...shop-decla.html

Read the article and get the files on the alternate site before it gets a takedown order as well.

http://www.headlesshollow.com


There is a lesson here on how not to treat your fans and userbase. Just as White Wolf.


Edit: It's on Slashdot as well. http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/12/01/0...-After-Fan-Site

Pulling a TSR, eh? Too bad for them it isn't 1997 anymore.

I imagine most Games Workshop customers are used to the poor treatment, but where does GW intend to get new ones?

I'm always amazed when hobby gaming companies pull stunts like this. Like: How is the RPGA even still around? It's been gutted so often by bad decisions from WotC that I can only assume it is now propped up by nothing more than the sheer name recognition of D&D.

They probably were losing money because of the international economic crisis, took the easy way out by blaming fansites, and are now trying to sue their way out of the hole.

I'm no longer surprised by what GW does, and neither should anyone else that really follows wargaming. Since they went public and started worrying about keeping stockholders happy, instead of customers, they just became another douchebag corporate entity instead of the down-to-earth gaming guys I prefer to give my business to.

The RPGA is around because it is run as a marketing and promotions expense to sell more 4e D&D books. WotC learned almost ten years ago that it was more effective to make it free and use it to draw people into playing their games than to charge for membership and try to keep it afloat.

Actually, you can see GW's financial statements on their Website. They did pretty well thoughout the recession, just as all luxury goods brands typically do. If you've got 600$ to blow of miniatures, you are not the sort of person to be affected by blue collar job losses, you know. It's a niche market for above-average income people. These people always have money.

No, I don't think it's a cash grab, really. My guess is they want to keep a VERY tight reing on their products. They don't like discussion groups. They don't like fan creativity. They want you to get all your knowledge from White Dwarf. They want to control everything about their image. Why? No idea. Maybe the IP guys are permanently traumatised from the Blizzard fuck-up. Shit, I wknow I would be.

A number of years ago a friend told me he thought that Games Workshop regarded adult gamers as troublemakers because they could argue with the company about game balance etc. instead of being stupid 12 year olds who would just go and buy every mini.

Can't really disagree. The Warhammer games break down when you play comptetively. I think GW has noticed this, and they have been promoting tournements and talking with people that play in tournements. Maybe they want to do something about it. Maybe not. I certainly think it's true they envision most customers as playing a few friendly games between friends and family, at which point game balance isn't much of a concern since everyone mostly just has fun.

Maybe, but my point was: Who's participating? Brass tacks: RPGA is about the fat loot, but the increasingly short lifespan of an RPGA campaign makes this less appealing. Today's fat loot will become a lame story that nobody wants to hear faster now than ever before.

I see RPGA is still running at some cons, but in my area that kind of semi-public play no longer exists post-LG. They tell me it is because there are no regional exclusives or premier mods in LFR and I see their point. Why should anyone go to a con or even a game day to play RPGA when they can stay home and play the same mod at the same time in their own basement?

So from where I'm sitting it looks like the RPGA has gotten to the point where it even fails at being "marketing and promotion" unless WotC is looking to break into the coveted moms, cats and imaginary friends market.

From my perspective--RPGA fill the FLGS (both shops when they run the events. So it has not happened yet, of course YMMMV depending on the store and how active the gaming community is in your area.

The problem is most of these companies get so big they loose sight of the fan base. Enforcing your copyright is one thing. trying to be elitist and be the only outlet/venue for fans is how games loose that fan base.

I had a friend who had a Stay-At-Home-Mom D&D game Tuesdays at 11:00 AM. One mom would host, one would run, and the other would cook.

That is possibly the most awesome post I have ever seen.

Maybe it's your areas. Here in Boston, I can think of three places off hand that run RPGA events that are usually pretty full (one of them in a public library, even) and out in Cincinnati, at least two stores there have weekly RPGA groups that play too. On another board with a very small roleplaying community there are at least six or seven people that are part of it. And I've seen the crowds for the Gencon RPGA, so...

I dunno. *shrug*.

On the subject of Warhammer, this blog post comes to mind from an older GW fan: Beardies and Grognards.

Interesting blog post. First, "Gronard" does NOT mean scrotum beard. I don't know where the fuck he got that. It means someone that grumbles a lot.

It's common knowledge (common enough to be on wikipedia) that GW invented games for the sole purpose of selling miniatures. That should basically set your understanding of their approach pretty well. They don't give a shit about anything else other than selling miniatures. So the games don't have to be balanced, no. They just have to exist. Frankly, as is pointed out in the blog, gaming is only one part of "The Hobby". All those countless hours spent painting gluing and modeling are not activities in the way of playing with your army. They are the point. The road is the destination. That's not a bad thing.

The description of their store operating procedure sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I see no problem with how they operate.

It's an interesting perspective on the Blizzard fiasco. I'm guessing the blogger has limited exposure to business practices. Staying away from related but non-core aspects of your business is a very, very common practice. Some companies are opportunistic, yes, but most are not. Their decision to back away from computer gaming was reasonnable business logic. In hindsight of course, they let millions slip away. But at the time of the decision, it probably seemed very sensible.

Anyway, I just got a Steam Tank for Christmas, and as I was assembling I discovered one of the side armour panels had a miscast, and has a huge hole in it. I called Customer Service, he asked me for the number on the back on the box, and told me they were shipping me a new one, and I could keep this one and do whatever I wanted with it. Just like that. So, they may be rough on fan sites, but they do treat customers very well.

From what I know of the writer of the blog post, he's been involved in various positions in companies for at least the last ten years. He was part of the creative team for LUG(?) when they did the Star Trek and Middle Earth stuff, and now he works for Volition Inc, a video game company, as one of their creative directors.

I seriously am not stalking the guy; he's just open with what he's done and where he's been

I also agree with his point that what GW does with their business isn't wrong, per se, but it is dickish. Using third party hobby stores as a thermometer for interest and then sliding in to push out the hobby store nets them a better bottom line, but it's on the same level as Wal-mart: pure Superman level dickery.

But I don't have a personal stake in this; the closest I'll get to mini-gaming is buying Privateer Press minis to paint and those rumored Cthulhutech minis they've talked about on their boards. I just know from the small brushes I've had with them and their fans that while their stores seem very clean and very professional, it really does give off that weird, Stepford sort of normal that freaks me out. Plus, every time we walked in there (myself and my girl) they were very intent on examining the cute female asking for greenstuff's backside. So, yeah.

But then, their store failed in our area, so...

You know, that really sums up my feelings of their stores, thank you, I couldn't really describe the feelings whenever I walk into one.

Well they probably do that to not alarm parents.

True, the true source of a 13 year old' income. Gotta keep them happy. Maybe they won't be so scared about little Jimmy painting orcs and elves with the popularity of the Lord of the Rings films.

If the stores look really clean cut and professional it will minimize the extent to which parents have a fear in the back of their mind that their kid will become an unkempt underachiever because he painted minis in his youth.

Like the blog post says, it would help other hobby stores to adopt GW's clean store policy. I know I groused about having to singlehandedly dust every single shelf when I worked in Blockbuster, but I appreciate it now. Some of these stores I've gone to - whoo! That's the least of the problem gamestores have, but that's a long post here in itself.

Heh, very true, at least dust is the least of the things, sometimes smells can be a bigger factor, though the store can't help it if their customers are the ones that smelled, especially on some card tourney days.

Oh yeah, a while back I stoped by the Compleat Strategist in NYC while on a weekend trip, talk about an interesting store. The shelves was cluttered with stuff and... I was at a loss of where to start and I didn't have to time to just peruse, not with two female friends (non-gamers) with me at the time.

What the hell is up with the smelly people? I never quite grasped that. I mean, I can understand smelly people if we're in the Middle East or some place where body ordors aren't as socially unacceptable, but in the US people are extremely sensitive to body odors.

My favorite story, and I know I've recounted this one before, was when I was in a gamestore with my significant other, doing some impulse shopping. While I was paying, one of Those Guys was nearby and he spotted my girlfriend playing with a set of feather masks they had set up on the counter for whatever reason. Cue awkward conversation between him and her (entirely one-sided) wherein he explained how he heroically killed a red dragon using nothing but his wits and a Decanter of Endless Water.

What goes through your head to keep talking when someone is obviously not paying attention or cares about your 21st level warrior-mage?

That first statement really shows the lack of familiarity you have with people who play wargames. People I know that play have lost jobs due to job cuts. Others of us buy what we can when other expenses like rent and food are taken care of. Some of us have 600$ or more on miniatures because we have been collecting them for years slowly expanding our armies.

Who are "These people" that always have money. I know maybe one or two people that have an above average income that play. Thats out of like 2 dozen people.

IMHO D&D books are more expensive to maintain than an army. Shadowrun is up there also. Even 15$ for each pdf at the new prices, add in, core, augment, armoury, street magic, seattle, and one other, and thats 90$, thats near what it takes for the average force.

I guess he was so excited that he couldn't contain himself. Sometimes if I'm really excited about something I have to make a mental effort not to speak out of turn or inappropriately about it.

Well, getting to this point with just 4th Edition dead tree + PDFs runs about $1,400 or so. If you started back at 1st Edition and bought each book as it was released, it'd be closer to $6,000, perhaps a bit more. And that's just Shadowrun. I know I have more than that with D&D, Paranoia, CthulhuTech, Eclipse Phase, All Flesh, Traveller, and others.

Carl

And I feel bad about it, because I was that kid when I was a teenager, but at the same time, you have to understand where my girl is coming from. When you're a girl, especially an attractive one, you're an open target among the geek crowd, even with your boyfriend standing right there next to you. It's why she doesn't tend to follow me in when I make a stop in to my local stores to poke around for a few minutes - the outright stares, the awkward conversations, the whole store following her around..it's not worth the hassle of standing around with me.

It was actually worse (to bring it back around to the subject) the time we went to the GW we had in our local mall to pick up green stuff for a Ral Partha dragon she bought at Gencon. Have you ever walked into a place and had everyone stop what they're doing and stare at you? Yeah. A little awkward.


Let's call a spade a spade - the whole frigging hobby as a whole is expensive, and that includes tabletop, LARP, board games, and mini's. Everything is expensive and none of it is cheap; the moment you buy a book, you're out at least twenty dollars unless it's a rare and highly sought after book that people are going to throw money at you for. I'm a big fan of DnD 4th, but I'm also trying to be a lot more conscious of my spending, so I don't own anything over the first core set, the FR Campaign guide, and KotS (which I bought before they re-released it free, on the web, with revisions - the perils of being an early adopter). I've been watching out for sales and discounts, but even when the local Waldenbooks started its going out of business sales, they're still only 20% off of the cover price.

Luckily, it's also an opt-in hobby, so I can pick and choose as I like. So there's that.

As a non-minis gamer (outside of the pre-painted plastic ones I pick up for my D&D 4E game) how much does an "average" Warhammer army cost to create? I know there are different point values depending on the size of the army but I'm curious as to what the comparison is. I would also think that all that time invested in painting, sanding, etc. would have some sort of cost value attached to it.

A butterface girl with a low-cut shirt pretty much commands the floor at any gathering of geekery. I took a big-tit ex of mine to a comic book convention and, out of the blue, an amateur fantasy artist swooped in on her and asked if she liked dragons. Her cold reply of "no" and the poor slob's dejected look were something to behold.

Nerd stinkery is a common issue but I've also attended plenty of sporting events where I'm pressed up against a piece of man flab who smells of stale beer and onions. I'd say for 90% of fans of anything, they're hygienic. It's that 10% that makes the entire hobby look like it's filled with shut-in cases.

Armchair psychologist statement: I think for folk with predilections toward obsessiveness there is "everyday mode," where you shower, wear clean clothes, etc. and then there's "geek mode," where you let yourself go to hell simply because you feel at home in a place, be it a game store or a football stadium... and who cares if you stink at home? Stinky nerds wouldn't even have jobs if they stank all the time. (Cue poster who shares story of stinky nerd coworker in 5... 4... 3...)

I've had times, mostly on the weekends, where I just want to veg out around the house and don't take a second for personal grooming. If we end up going out though, I always brush my teeth and use deodorant to at least look decent, if not shave. I spent all of my time at my gf's parent's house unshaven, mostly because I was feeling fsking lazy and didn't want to bother.

But there are Those Guys that smell and look like they've never see the underside of a showerhead before, and they're the ones bringing the hobby down.

Wes: See also the Queen Bee syndrome, where relatively decent looking girls in geek circles can command an entire army if they so choose. Female geeks can be very attractive, but I've moved out of the mindset that a girl needs to wear glasses and can tell me the Konami Code off-hand before I'll be interested.

(I was a total nerd at one point, no lie)

Human beings consist of a very thin layer of civilization over top of millions of years of evolution. Among most animal species, a female that clearly is in good breeding form is the object of intense interest from every male in sight. Or smell. What keeps her from being pestered incessantly is the one male that beats the shit out of any other male that gets close. Even that doesn't work all the time.

Our cultural indoctrination filters that male instinct through training that instills patterns of behaviour that are considered appropriate within the society. Over the course of millennia we have learned to get along in crowded conditions in a way that doesn't get most of us killed. We learn how to surreptitiously look at the female, how to approach her in ways that do not repel her, and how to present our animal instincts in a way that she will find attractive. If that training goes awry, or is absent.... who knows, for any number of reasons.... then the instincts are expressed in behaviour that is unacceptable to society as a whole, and the female in particular. The guy who doesn't know how to act around a woman is still driven by a very powerful instinct that has kept the species alive for a long time. The drive even overrides obvious cues that he is failing miserably.

So he keeps trying. Despite fear, years of bad experiences, and complete misunderstanding of himself and his world. Despite disgusted disinterest from the woman, angry stares from her man who himself is trained by society not to beat the shit out of this interloper, and self-loathing for the humiliation to which he subjects himself, he keeps trying.

The smelly nerd is the introverted version of the crotch-grabbing "yeah baby!" frat guy.

It's a hard question to answer, because it depends on several factors. Not just the points values like you mentioned, but in whether you're after new or used minis, paying to get them painted or not, and what sort of army you're making (in terms of force composition ideas, not just what side/army/nation you want to play, though the two go together).

In the same way that the points value determines -- in the broadest sense -- the cost of an army, it's important to remember that it also determines the cost of individual miniatures within an army. A handy prepackaged boxed set of High Elven Spearmen (fairly basic troopers for their faction) may be moderately priced in terms of both money (being a boxed set of plastic models) and points (being the core troops of a High Elf army). A basic unit of 16 of them is about $35, and, according to what I think is the most recent army book for High Elves, would be about a 175 point unit.

Or, for $45, you could buy a "High Elf Hero on Dragon" model that could then be configured to run you about 550 points for just that one model. A big ass model, yes, but for just $10 more you're getting about triple the points.

Army building is a complicated thing, that way, in that it's hard to pin down an average when it comes to a "points to dollars" ratio...and it's worth pointing out that this is even within the same army! When you go to armies like the Skaven (rat men who attack in huge hordes) or Orks/Goblins (ditto), you run into really dirt cheap basic infantrymen when it comes to points cost, but the game company is still charging you $35 for a box of 16 dudes...so the price tag just goes up, up, up.

That's one reason (among many) that over in their sci-fi game, Warhammer 40k, Space Marines stay so popular. Because their core troops are already elite superhuman soldiers in top notch armor and toting fantastic guns, each trooper costs double or even triple, in points, what the basic foot soldier of other armies might. When you're fielding the same points cost as your opponent, but 1/3 or even 1/4 the physical miniatures (which ALSO cuts down on the cost of the required cases, and headaches, associated with transporting your army), dollar values get all out of wack.

So basically, then, all of that comes down to what playstyle you like, what army you choose, and what your tolerance is for painting (or for paying to have them painted, which is another reason smaller, more elite armies, are often popular). It's one big fat caveat, and just a warning that estimates like this are very tricky.

All that said? Games Workshop tends to have a halfway decent core "starter army" for pretty much every faction, that gives you a little bit of what each faction is known for -- a mix of basic infantrymen, specialized guerilla or artillery type guys, a few character/leader models, some vehicles or cavalry, a pinch of this, a pinch of that -- and will normally leave you maybe a single boxed unit or two away from a solid, tournament-playable, force. Most of those boxed sets are $175-$200 bucks.

For a basic "tabletop quality" paint job, if you're of a mind to get things painted for you instead of paint them yourselves, you can generally look at being charged at least the price of the models in question to get them painted (so double it for a VERY rough gauge of what it might cost).

And then? And then you can find them on eBay -- often those same boxed sets, maybe even still in the box as a retailer crumbles and tries to liquidate inventory -- for...say...half MSRP? Fairly regularly. Or, alternately, you can find a single very well painted model for $150 for a $15 model, painted by a real pro/award winner.

So the whole thing's just fuzzy as all hell, is what I'm basically saying. It depends on an AWFUL lot of factors (even including just what's popular at the moment, what book just came out, or what time of year it is, as eBay gets flooded with armies no one wants any more). Imagine if everyone sold their Street Samurai, karma and gear and all, on eBay when the new Street Magic hit shelves, and then six months later the same kids were all buying Technomancers and were eager to ditch their Mages and Adepts, used, on Craigslist. GW's rotating army book schedule and "codex creep" makes sure the used market is always, always, hopping...and as such, always, always, unpredictable to get into the game.

The university I went to was Engineering disciplines only. Every day for every girl was a "get stared at" day. When there were parties, most guys that actually had girlfriends didn't want to bring them, because they got stared at obsessively all night long. One time, in a class, we had to parter up for labs (this was chemistry iirc) and I asked the girl next to me if she wanted to be my partner - because she looked smart and attentive to the subject matter. You should have seen the distrust in her eyes. "Yeeeaaahh.... I guess we can do that... ... ...". She wasn't even hot by normal standards.

I recently got back into Warhammer, and I got myself an Empire army. But now that I make more money than I ever have as a kid, I seem to have less to spend than I ever had (you know what I'm talking about!). So anyway, I was really price-conscious about my army. So I took my time and swooped up choice bargains on ebay and only bought from GW the stuff that's too hard to get on ebay, plus a pain set.

My 2000+ army, the minimum to have a decent game, really, cost me around 600$. And I got most of my shit half price or less on ebay. Retail is probably at least 800$. That's a lot of fucking dough. Which brings up my objection that Shadowrun (or other RP games) cost as much. You can probably, over the lifetime of the game, pay that much for books. But you sure as shit don't need 600$ UP FRONT before being able to even play the fucking game. Plus you can spread the cost around your gaming group, if you play with friends. When I used to play with meat popsicles (as opposed to electronic people) we used to pass the hat around for 5-10$ bills when we bought a few books. Can't do that with minis.

This takes me down memory lane on a tangent that sort of reverses the situation.

This was some 40 years ago. (Yeah, I know.) We still had Grade 13 in Ontario at that time. In my chemistry class (that was the memory trigger) our teacher paired us up for experiments. Boy-girl if possible, because "Boys are good at setting up, girls are good at cleaning up." (Yeah, I know. It was 40 years ago!) I was really good in chemistry (read: nerd), and he paired me with ... well, I won't give her name. Repeating her chemistry to get her diploma. Blonde, stunning figure, miniskirts, got a brand new Thunderbird for her 16th birthday, the object of lust for every boy in the school. I became the object of disgusted, hateful envy, complete with stares of disbelief from the cool guys. Not just for the classroom pairing, or the walking down the hallways together, but because she asked me to tutor her in chemistry, one-on-one after school. We studied in, among other places, the nurses station with the leather couch, and in her basement rec room with the bearskin rug in front of the fireplace. (I'm not making this up!) It was torture, as I tried to get formulas and concepts through to her as we were shoulder to shoulder over the books and my mind and eyes drifted to couch and rug ... and parts best left unsaid.

So at the end of the year, just before exams, she drove me home in her T-bird. In my driveway, she turned to me, lifting one mini-skirted knee up on the seat between us, and said in a soft whisper, "Peter, I am so grateful. I wish there was some way I could thank you."

I was frozen with fear. I knew exactly what she was saying. I wanted it with every cell of my body. The memory of her soft... well... the unsocialized nerd could think of nothing better to say than, "It was my pleasure to help you. You passing the exam will be thanks enough for me." And I ran.

Yeah, you're right. But I didn't have the courage or the experience to accept what she offered. In the long run I was lucky. Those qualities eventually came years later. But there isn't an antisocial, stammering, unkempt geek at a convention or a game store I don't relate to at least in some small way. There but for the grace of God and a few understanding women go I.

Could have been you, too, guys. Have a tiny bit of compassion next time you hold your nose.

PS. Some years later, when I became single again, I tried to find her. Never did.

I think we all have a story like that. Me, I can't think of one. I just hung out with dancers all through high school

I have compassion for those guys - a lot of them have slight mental disorders or are products of bad home lives. But that doesn't mean that I have to tolerate rude or bad or stinky behavior from them either.

in reference to the early comment of buying $600+ of minis - you cannot forget that on ebay there is a huge second hand market for GW mini's.

Getting bakc into it recently i've purchased 4,000 pts of Nids and probably close to 3,000 on Marines and the only thing i bought/had bought for me new was 1 Tyranids battleforce (before they changed it) and 1 Black reach set. Everything else was from Ebay at significantly reduced prices. I got a 1,000+ points nids army for less than $75. I recently got a box of marines stuff for around $25 that had over $200 of minis in it.

But GW have survived a lot of recesssions, they were opening stores in the UK when i was a lad that was 25+yrs ago.

To be fair, though, I honestly don't think many high school kids would have exactly been smooth in that situation, whether they were on the chess team OR the football team.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, even today how many grownups can say that they would be totally ready with some smooth James Bond rejoinder and just the right look if something like that happened totally unexpectedly? I mean, being perfectly honest about it?

I've got all the rejoinders ready!

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Do you expect me to talk?"

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Nothing would give me greater pleasure, but I'm afraid I have a business appointment."

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"I'd respectfully request that you change my assignment to Nassau."

"…I wish there was some way I could thank you."
"Why do Chinese girls taste different from all other girls?"

~J

Fair enough. Maybe some grownup who had run over a 'similar' scenario a thousand times in his mind. Just sayin'.

Where are these "understanding women" of whom you speak? I can't find any.

That's because they usually get picked up quickly.
I married one and she's still here twelve years later.

Hate to say it, but same I'm a jerk because I tighten the dating pool, I'M SORRY.


Someone's been playing too many dating sims lately.

I opted out of the GW -let's continue to buy more army stuff- bulldrekk long time ago. Because it is basically a sink hole. Sure, I loved to play with my undead Army and my Chaos Horde (Hurl and Stench), but it got too expensive in the end with all the new gew gaws and time to paint them etc. Time, money and finding people willing to play a serious battle with me instead of a battle of the sexes. I know that girls are in short supply, but... *grumble* I'm willing to let certain things slide fwhen dealing with nerds and geeks, including social ineptness, but somethings aren't done.

Back on track... With them (the neboulus evil corp) trying and in part succeeding in not allowing us fans to congreate and have fun talking about the games we love. That makes me even want to fiddle around with the minis even less. What happened to them?! Money is that important to them?! The problem will still be there, when the next batch of teens grow up. Are they that myopic?! Or do they not know that us grown up gamers has plenty more money than a 12 yr old? That they should use the fansites as a breeding ground for new things? Eh gads man, it is cheap too!

Yeah, I am a gamergirl, a nerd and a geek. Yeah, I've tried the whole "Let's stalk the nice gamer/girl around the shop or the con (reminds me of an unwashed smelly male's first encounter with a bar of soap. In the gonads I might add. That serves him right for trying to sneak a peak whilst us girls were taking a shower. Not to mention the very publicly scolding), where ever she goes..
Brrr.. I am not polite nor dimplomatic enough to tolerate that kind of behavior for long. Nope, not really.
At least LARPers are used to girls. Well, accustomed to the concept of girls.
One well told tale at the physics department at the Uni where I studied loong time ago, is of a girl, cute as a button, who decked a guy for trying to do things with her person, she wouldn't tolerate. Physics department at my old university is the ultimate nesting ground for geeks and nerds. Not to mention busy hands and busy minds, but the busy hands is part and parcel of being human.

Sure I can swoon at the welltold tale of meeting a dragon and living to tell the tale of it. But showing off your munchkin genes or talent, will get you nowhere. A gamergirl is picky, you know. Substance, not numbers iffn' you don't mind.

I like geeks, I like nerds. When they overcome the whole shyness of one having boobs and a vagina, they are Nice Guys. And I'd rather have a Nice Guy in my bed and in my heart than anything else.
At least I was reasonable enough to marry a Nice GamerGeek with a very nice full SR library (1st ed through 4th ed) and loads of fluff on the side. Darlings, I mean the novels, hmm'kay?

There are also some girls, gamer or not, who hang out with geeks/nerds because they know they can get whoever they want in these circles. And even girls who prefer geeks, or look for them because they're usually kind, knowledgeable (and they even start to get fashionable).
Anyway, I met my girl at the friday evening shadowrun-players meet and drink where someone brought her because she wanted to meet some geeks...

Thank you for the in-depth clarification. That made more sense than how anyone else has attempted to explain it to me.



I see piles of those old codexes at used book stores. I don't know who would buy them. But what I don't understand is why someone would dump expensive figurines on eBay if they plan to continue playing the game. Is it a matter of playing the "in-vogue" Warhammer/Warhammer 40K race? You can still use the same minis, even with codex updates, yes?


You sound like my future Missus. Even though I find them horrible, she likes the novels as well. Men, there are plenty of geeky women out there. You just have to make the effort to go out with a LOT of women to find them. Which isn't a bad thing, really. It's no different than a jock trying to find a fellow sports fan for a wife.

As a side note, does anyone find WotC's "Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress" columns a bit... pander-y? I'll admit, I thought that the printed chick-lit biography was cute and was an excellent tool to bring non-geek, young women into D&D and role-playing games in general. I'd toss it to any high school girl. But as a regular column that takes the tone of "OMG grrls, you can totally make up your own house rulez!" I find it... I dunno. Something about it bugs me. I know I'm not the target audience and I think an outsider point-of-view is important as the gaming community is so in-bred that it literally bleeds blue. But I think equating "outsider" with "woman" is a mistake.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not for us. Not that I don't dislike you Wes, I'm just stating the obvious before someone starts up. It's exactly that - it's for the girls that are actually into fantasy, and I don't mean the Conan smash kind of stuff, but fairy princesses and unicorns and all of that, that are interested in gaming but can't find a comfortable "in". I could go on about my girl (and will, in a moment) but Shelly was a real treat for her to read when I bought Confessions for her, because she identified with it a lot. I have to put Miss Mazzanoble down after awhile because she raises my sugar intake like whoa though, and I'm usually pretty tolerable of that over the top writing style. I have also met her in-person, and she's a lot more restrained and kind of bewildered that she has a fanbase. She was very sweet though, and signed a copy of her book for my girlfriend while we talked about awesome pink sparkly dice that she'd bought over at the Chessex booth (sidenote: my girl has exactly the same set, which we laughed about).

My own significant other is a beautiful young lady I met six years ago on deviantart, and we've been living together for near four years now, with a year of dating before that. We're still extremely compatible, but I'm the geekier of the pair of us. She's a fringe geek that is still new to a lot of the hobby, but she's also curious and interested when I start on a topic I know. And I've learned a lot of things I don't think I'd ever have known if it wasn't for her insistance. She's also helped bring me out of my shell a whole lot, because I was seriously veering into otaku-dom (the bad Japanese kind) before I met her.

Also, her parents bought me classic Kenner Star Wars figures this year for Christmas. I love my SO

This is the rational choice if you are willing to spare the entire cost of the new things you're getting, but if the new thing is shiny enough and new enough, or the old stuff is obsolete enough (I'm given to understand that releases can cause dramatic shifts in balance, which can make certain minis worthless to someone tournament-focused or just sufficiently competitive), dumping the old minis takes just that little bit more off the effective price tag.

~J

Ebay minis come 50% from online stores, where the discounts are pretty low - maybe 10% less. With shipping, it is usually a bad deal. I've never bought from stores, but judging by the fact fucking 50% of offers or more come from stores, it's gotta be working.

The other half are from individuals. I have no other why they sell. Some are pro-painters, of course, who add value by painting the minis and then sell them for profit. That's cool. But unpainted minis are hard to understand. It seems some people start armies but then decide to stop, so they sell the couple of units they had. I don't know. My dad actually buys shitload of minis (he's got the cash) and I keep trying to convince him to shop ebay, but he doesn't because he can't understand why someone would sell at a loss. Neither can I, but that doesn't mean I won't take advantage of it.


Hah, anyone else picturing that scene in Porky's?

I keep being surprised by how much negative sexual shit happens to women, in general. Kinda sucks. It seems I never think about it, being a guy. That stuff never happens to me.

I only ever met a gamer chick once. She was damn hot too, in that cute as a button way. I bet she had tons of trouble finding groups where she wasn't considered meat. I never got to know her well enough to know what she did with the attention.

I have been really putting in the effort to carefully observe females over the past two years or so. By that I mean that I am trying to find out what they really like to do, and what makes them happy. I think that the majority of socialized males can approach a female and interact in a socially acceptable manner to accomplish immediate goals and leave an at least neutral impression due to manners and etiquette. But my question was, how can someone approach and engage a female in a way that makes the female get a strong positive impression? How can I, as a male, perform actions or select conversation trees that cause the female to feel good in my presence? How many hours of proximity does a female require to begin to feel relaxed in my presence?

So far, I have come up with some things that females, with few exceptions, *aren't* interested in:
*Firearms, both classical and modern
*Swords
*Unarmed combat that seems violent
*Tactical tomohawks
*Shotgun dismemberment
*Nietzche
*John Milius
*Strategy videogames
*Battle of Stalingrad
*Boxing
*Soviet BMPs
*SWAT room-clearing tactics

Today I resolved that instead of coming up with an endless list of negatives, I must instead find out thing that females *are* interested in. I don't have very many items, but the following seem to generate an almost universal interested response from females:
*Physical appearance ("I like your shoes.")
*Chocolate/Food/Eating/Caloric intake ("Here, I baked some high quality choclate brownies with nuts and several types of chocolate. Won't you have some?")
*Puppies, kittens, cats, and dogs ("One time I raised a cat and he did this and this and that.")
*Modern consumeristic escapist Asian martial arts that make hand to hand combat seem graceful rather than violent ("I break his chi by gently pirouetting and imagining warm energy flowing from my lower gut into my arms, and then I do this form on a grassy knoll in the sunlight while breathing softly.")
*Menopause (but if you're male I get the impression you shouldn't randomly bring this up in conversation, but among females they seem to love spontanieously bring up among themselves and then they'll go on for like 10 or 20 minutes)


Maybe you all can help me. What are some things I can bring up with females in the field and have them generate a positive response?