Running wild is particularly confusing on the issue of pricing a critter which is a warform/chimeric, and has multiple additional skills trained.

In both cases the example they give reference the base cost of the animal.

So lets say I want to purchase a well breed trained husky to pull a sled how do I make the prices work together?

I take an Wolf-hybrid (African Wild Dog similar animal) and make it a warform (base cost x 2), I add three attribute enhancers (+30% three times), I then train the dogs to run (seriously, they don't have running in their core skillset: this is an instinctive and their Will is 3 so, thats base cost x 1.25 x 2), I then train the dogs to pull a sled (thats agaisnt instincts, Will 3, so base cost x 10 x 2) I also train the dogs to work together as a pack (Advanced Pack Training which is Basic and again Will 2, so base cost x 2 x 2).

So lets calculate the cost then, simplest way is this:

Base Cost X modifier x modifer, like so

100 x 2 x 1.3 x 1.3 x 1.3 x 1.25 x 2 x 10 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 87,880 Nuyen / Critter. This does not reflect RAW as it refers to base cost at several points, and results in a ridiculously expensive animal.

More Complicated, but not too difficult really, is this: (call base cost y)

yx2+yx0.3+yx0.3+yx0.3+yx1.25x2-y+yx10x2-y+yx2x2-y= total cost

This assumes that all modifiers are applied to the absolute base cost, which isn't exactly clear; also, the -y is there because the total cost of a trained animal = base cost x training modifier x will modifier. So if you train them multiple times and add together the training costs you pay the base cost multiple times unless you remember to take out the base cost to work out training cost. (So the Seeing Eye Dog in Running Wild costs 100 as base cost, plus 1300 as training cost. So a Seeing Eye Dog with combat training would cost 1400 + 100x10x2-100 = 1400 + 1900 = 3,300 Nuyen)

For my husky this process gets a cost of:
200 + 30 + 30 + 30 + 150 + 1900 + 300 = 2,640 Nuyen / critter. Which for a well breed highly trained working dog is fair, if perhaps a little cheap.

My problem is, I can't replicate the costs of the untrained Warforms on page 28 with either of these methods.
Even if I use a third method for calculating warform cost, I can't get it to work:

y x 2 + y x 2 x 0.3 x number of modifications= total cost

For the Grizzly this is:

6,500 x 2 + 6,500 x 2 x 0.3 x 6 = 36,400 which does not equal the cost of 28,500 listed in the book. (This method also begs the question, what cost do you apply the training costs to for warforms/chimerics y or y x 2 ?)

So how do you calculate cost?

I'd do it the second way you did it. All that training specifies base cost x something or % of base cost.

I figure that means you should always use base cost and not just add all the multipliers together. As your example showed, that means that teaching it two tricks is 4 times as expensive as one trick, and teaching 3 tricks is 8 times as expensive. Things shouldn't have exponential costs generally.

I don't have the book, so no idea about replicating any of the book's costs. My guess would be that someone made a mistake in their calculations for the book cost and didn't fix it (Like maybe some value(s) changed since they were calculated and no one remembered to go back and refigure the costs)

Agreed here... the second method makes a great deal more sense... Base cost is exactly that... BASE cost...
It is not Accumulated or Adjusted Cost... so you would take each modificaion you desired, Find the cost for the modification itself (Base Cost x Modification Cost) and then add all modifications together for the final price...

I have no ideas on warform costs though...

Keep the Faith

Honestly, (not having Running Wild on hand, mind you) I always treat in-game costs of items as separate from custom creation of costs, because the SR4 devs don't take their own formulas into consideration when creating the costs. For example, look at the costs of the Skillsoft clusters on p203 of Unwired. They are incredibly reduced compared to the usual cost of Rating x 10,000 for activesofts. Another example would be looking at the Arsenal vehicles compared to the vehicle customization rules. Or any published vehicle in Ghost Cartels compared to the vehicle customization rules in Arsenal (although some of them are spot on).

I like to think of the pre-mades as a mass-produced corporate version of the item that has some cost reduction because of the scale of production. That's one way that I can reconcile it in my mind.

Hahnsoo, you need to allow for the fact that when unwired was written, activsoft costs were rating*3,000 not rating*10,000.
Yours,
Joel

Gah! Thanks for reminding me.*

Still, the point is the same in Arsenal and Ghost Cartels. I actually sat down and calculated it out one day, and many of the vehicles were definitely non-standard costs. It's similar to the problem of the Emotitoy and Empathy software.

*Offtopic rant: Bastards... why make them so much more expensive? In our campaign and in all of the Shadowrun missions games, you'd have to spend all of your pay from one run to get a single good activesoft, which is inferior in every way to an actual skill other than the fact that they cost Karma. Of course, I'm playing an Edge monkey who has 7 Edge, so I really feel the burn from skillsofts.

It would be nice to know how much a guard hellhound costs. Few things in security say don't F with me like a hellhound.

Weren't there calculation rules for this in running wild?

I don't have running wild, if I did Jack might reverse his "I hate hellhounds" policy.

There are calculation rules in Running Wild. They suck, each calculation rule is seperate they don't look at the big picture (what happens when you try to build a warform and then train it).

And yes there are costs for a combat hellhound, costs about 200,000. (That one is easy Base Cost x Training Mod x Will Mod; 10,000 x 10 (for Agaisnt Instincts training) x 2 (for WP 3) = 200,000. But god help you if that was a warform Hellhound (say with 3 mods) is it 400,000+, or 219,000 or 228,000.

Who said anything about training? Just chain the thing to your front door and toss it fresh meat every so often

Hey, if those prices were accurate, the runners would be breaking into compounds to steal the hellhounds.

And if they were accurate, no company would ever bother with hellhounds because they'd cost too darn much. You could have an entire army of drones for the cost of one hellhound. Though once again, that's only if you bother training it. Sometimes just keeping something dangerous around can be useful without training.

well, that's the cost of owning one. in all probability, the corps that actually own them are probably either specialised security corps who have trainers and get their hell hound pups at the cost of nothing more than food and shelter, and get training at cost of only wages for the trainer. or they're megacorps who do the same thing but only for secure facilities (and probably also own a number of smaller corporations that are security corps, of course).

so basically, you shouldn't be expecting hellhounds in too many corp facilities, just the high end ones, typically those that need to rent an astral security drone equivalent.

on the other hand, some paranimals are much more worth it; gabriel hounds for example, which are cheap, have compulsion(immobility), and 3 IPs with a 5P bite attack. also a nice running speed, running and perception skills, stealth skills, tracking, and a very respectable unarmed combat dicepool of 10.

If you consider that that 200K will include the costs of the original pup, housing/feeding the animal whilst it was trained, labour costs (for a very rare skillset), a margin to cover the animals which prove unsuitable for training, and a profit margin then the final cost is probably reasonable.

Stolen goods are what -20%, so thats 160K. Less the cost of retraining the animal to a new master, say (Moderate difficulty) thats 100K. So you could probably sell a stolen trained Hellhound for 60K. Is that worth it? Maybe, but 60K split between the probably 3 people you had doing the job. Thats 20K each, so a reasonable run.

Its probably easier and a bigger pay day to steal the pups, especially if they're warform so represent years of breeding as well. Which also would make a good basis for a run. I can imagine the runners breaking into the hounds' kennel and realising that the pups havn't been weaned yet. Fight an angry bitch hellhound without killing the merchandise, then escape.

Edit: A combat trained pack of Gabriel Hounds cost is (using my second method)
2000+2000x2x2-2000+2000x10x2-2000 = 46,000 ea or 184,000 for 4 . So in terms of cost effectiveness I'm going 4 Gabriel hounds as a pack over 1 Hellhound any night of the week. Don't work during the day though. Thats actually a stupidly cheap price for what you get. Especially since 1 Gabriel hound is going to give a Hellhound a bad night. (With the Hellhound you paying for the fact its astral security as well, the Gabriel hound is only very effective mundane security).

No that is the RETAIL price of a hellhound. From a trainer after markup. So basically that is the price that some rich fat cat is paying for his personal hellhound, but for security the cost is going to be much less. If they are the type of company that uses hellhounds chances are they have their own breeders and handlers and all they have to do is pay their salary. Even if they are doing the worst type of training (Against Instinct) a single trainer should be able to train 3 groups (3 hours a day for each) in 6 months (assume only 4 hits a month). So with a cost of 0 for the puppies and the trainer's salary (lets say 90K plus housing) and 500 per month per dog in expenses that would drop the cost of that hellhound from 200K to @ 15K as a bottom line cost to the corp.

Still not cheap, but not 200K.

Also you can only warform mundane critters.

Where does it say that: only thing I can find is this. And I see no reason why you can't selectively breed Paranormal creatures (those whose breeding habits we understand, at least)for the traits you want. Chimeric Paranormal creatures would be more problematic and I wouldn't allow them as a GM.

Humm. Your right. They do state that the genetics of warforms are generally stored and cloned, so those can't be used for paracritters. However just selective breading programs can probably produce warforms; per RAW.

I just shudder at the stats for a warform Juggernaut.

Why would any Corp ever want to use hellhounds for their security when they could use bogies instead? Flame attack is going to cause all kinds of incidental property damage, isn't really that damaging, can be dodged and reduced with armor/fireproofing. A bogie's howl has no chance of burning down the building, doesn't require line of sight and will affect anyone within hearing distance without select sound filters, armor won't protect against it, and it can't be dodged.

I wanted to make one, but they shot me down.

Costs for Warforms are figured out as Base * (2+.3x) with x being the number of genetic modifications.

Costs for Chimerics are figured out as Base * (3+.3x + .5y) with x being the number of genetic modifications and y being the number of chimeric abilities.

Running Wild, p.28 has two samples to help show you the math.

A grizzly bear, has a base price of 7,500 :nuyen:, 7,500 * (3.8) [2 + .3*6] is 28,500 :nuyen:
A great cat has a base price of 5,000 :nuyen:, so 5,000 * (4.9) [3 + .3*3 + .5*2] is 24,500 :nuyen:

Personally, I think that the costs for a paranormal critter, such as a Hellhound, warformed and trained should be hideously expensive. The price of the creature after going through the warform/chimeric process would be treated as the base cost for training. Just my opinion...

As Tiger Eyes points out to me: use the post warform cost as the base: generates more profit for the corp/trainer this way and the trainability of the critter can be affected by the modifications.

Gizzly's are listed as 6.5K, so that explains why my maths didn't work. That and subtle change between z(2+0.3x) and 2z+z(0.3x) where z is the base cost and x the number of modifications.

It would probably have helped if you'd walked us through costing those warforms / chimerics rather than just listing the final cost. And training warforms based off their post-warform cost is not clear. Suggest these are included in the errata for clarity.

Combat training a Hellhound based off a post warform base ends up with a 400K warform Hellhound with no mods (didn't add any in for ease of calculations). Even subtracting 200K for the cost of re-training it to a new master (Moderate difficulty I'd assume) and subtracting the 20% for stolen goods your looking at something worth about 120K. Which I suppose you'll probably need 3-6 people to steal safely (cough, yeah right you can safely steal a hellhound), so between 20-40K payout. Actually that sounds reasonable. Again, could make an interesting run.

Oh and a warform Juggernaut probably won't happen for several human generations. To develope one you'd need a breeding pair, actually get them to breed, select from their young for the traits you want, breed again, isolate the traits you want again, breed again... for several generations of Juggernauts until you have actually gained the benefit you were looking for. Lets assume 6 months gestation, 6 months to maturity - thats a year between between generations. And I hardly think it takes a Juggernaut only 6 months to reach maturity? So basically to develope a warform Juggernaut you'd have had to have had the breeding program in place for years already.

According to fluff, even the slightest changes in the genome of a paranormal animal can produce a mundane animal instead in the next generation. At least, this is according to the meta-genome fluff that they have in State of the Art and Shadowtech. It takes generations to breed animals toward the kind of physical and personality traits that are desirable, and it requires a larger gene pool than most corporate breeders would have available. This is one reason why novel paranormal animals (like chihuahuas that breathe fire or something) would be worth a LOT of money to a corporate researcher or a shadowrunner.

Fluff says its difficult, not impossible. RAW doesn't seem to say anything.

As a GM because of the fluff I'd only allow it for animals where getting a the requisite breeding population isn't impossible, and animals which mature quickly enough that your not talking multiple human generations between commencing the program and the desired outcome. You have to remember we're only at most 3 or 4 generations since the Awakening; to significantly improve on a breed of mundane dog takes years as it is, without the added complications of mundane throw-backs and the difficulties of the awakened genome.

Given how useful Hellhounds are as astral security, and how well known they are to corporations I'd allow a Hellhound breeding program.

Actually, there is probably an awakened Orc breeding program in some corps 'this would be awkward if it got out' facility.

Breeding them isn't a problem. I'd say every AAA corporation has some subsidiary with an in-house Hellhound or other Paranormal animal breeding program already. It's breeding them with genetic alterations that make them an equivalent of a warform that's the problem. I do agree with you that if there was any paranormal animal that corporations would use to produce the equivalent of a warform, it probably would be the Hellhound or the Barghest.

There's some wonky (read: wrong) science in Running Wild for Warforms, though. They state:
"When bred with other Warforms that have been modified the same way, there is roughly a 50 percent success rate in passing on the positive genetic traits. Crossbreeding Warforms bred for different traits has been successful, and this leads to a broader genetic base for further pairings."
Most positive traits aren't the result of Mendelian genetics, but are instead multi-factorial (and thus, far less than 50% of passing on similar traits to the offspring). In fact, inbred populations like this tend to cause far more problems than solutions. There are currently breeds of dogs that cannot live without human intervention (which actually may be a desirable trait for a warform).

Still, the Awakening is 60 years ago, approximately, in game terms. Who knows what the corporations have been up to since then?

Absolutely those percentages are way off. And I agree the changes in the genetic code make it very difficult, but not impossible. And shadowrunners work in the world of the 'not quite impossible'.

Hahnsoo--The percentages are off because of the need to cull populations with negative reinforcements that would render an non-viable (either due to sterility or congenital defect) outcome throughout the process. I remember bouncing numbers around with several different sources (some geneticists, some not...) and that being the rough figure that we all compromised on. In bred populations do cause problems, but Warforms are equal parts breeding programs, and genetic manipulation to remove "bad" genetics and replace it with "good" genetics. The significant difference between Warforms and Chimerics is that Warforms are limited to a single species' DNA. A small but important difference, similar to the difference between APs and Living Artifacts in Friday.

RE: Warform Awakened Critters--it's absolutely possible and I don't think I precluded it in RAW, but it extremely rare and very costly as the genetic tampering can't be done with the same accuracy on Awakened critters. Thus the need for selective breeding comes into play... I initially had looked into the possibility of a breeding program for stronger Magic attributes (and it isn't precluded from the Attribute Enhancement) but we wanted to keep warform paracritters very rare.

that is exactly the point, as people where complaining that one could go skill monkey by getting skillwires and spending the max amount of points on cash, and turning that cash into activesofts, with plenty in reserve for other gear...

sadly, one cant please everyone...