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dataweaver
Did anyone else notice a parallel between Tempo and links?

In the same way that Technomancers were originally introduced as Otaku (a much more limited, almost one-note concept), I'm thinking of introducing a variant or derivative of Tempo into my game. The purpose of this "second generation Astral drug", from a GM perspective, would be to grant non-mages the same sort of access to the world of the supernatural that links grant to the world of the technomancer. For this purpose, I'm seeking to downplay the more sinister properties of Tempo in its successor; while I don't want the drug's use to be without a price, neither do I want any self-respecting Shadowrunner to automatically avoid the stuff as something that will inevitably destroy him.

As well, I'm wondering what the Magic analog of Programs might be. There's a strong corollary between Programs and Complex Forms, where Programs are purchased (and usable by non-Technomancers) while Complex Forms are learned (and usable by Technomancers only); and Complex Forms are the Resonance analog of Spells, much as Sprites are the Resonance analog of Spirits; so turning it around, what would be to Spells as Programs are to Complex Forms? The primary use of this drug would be to temporarily grant Astral Sight to non-mages; but it's possible that a secondary use would be to allow those same non-mages limited access to spell-like effects from which they would otherwise be totally banned. Perhaps I need to review the rules for magic items in Shadowrun; if there are any "mage-only" items, they might fit the bill.
Karoline
Well, the first thought is 'magic items' such as a book that you would read a line from to make someone invisible, or a wand you could point at someone to hit them with stunbolts. While at first thought it seems a bit cheesy and makes it sound like we are moving into D&D, I could see shaman types in particular doing these sorts of things. Magic originally involved alot of trappings and such before people started to realize it was more about concentrating than mixing a pinch of beetle with a dash of sunflower root and blowing it at the enemy.
Mongoose
I agree. Programs basically ARE scrolls, in that they are scripts the user follows, and have "physical componantes" in the form of data files; the big difference is you have (very fast) automated assistance in following the script of a program. I guess the logical extension would be that mundanes might be able to use Ritual Sorcery given the correct props, drugs, etc, but can't cast spells "freeform" the way a mage can. This kinda makes sense, as nearly all current day magical traditions place a HUGE emphasis on ritual magic, or at least imply that it is much easier and ges better results- something that is not so true in the Shadowrun rules. But if you assume everybody practicing the current day traditions is a mundane- well, ritual might be all they got!
Karoline
Well, it might not be hard to think that a umm... mudanemancer or whatever would have a program that would read the entire scroll in a split second, and relate the important parts directly to the brain.

Or perhaps they study the scrolls beforehand and then they just need the scroll as a physical conduit and only have to say a single line or just concentrate hard enough. Or like I said it could be via other objects, such as talisman or other fetishes.
Mongoose
I don't think a program reading a scroll (even a skillsoft) would work; magic doesn't play right with simsense and (so far) even AI's can't cast spells.

Ritual is classically used to build up energy, which is the main reason I like it in this context. Normal mages can channel energy with raw will; ritual might allow the same thing for mundanes. Its not the scroll that would be important, but having the proper know how and gear for the ritual- that could certainly incorporate other objects, like a talisman or fetish, rather than a scroll. "Scroll" was just a handy term for a physical representation / component of the ritual, and one that makes the metaphore with a program easier.

Having to study "scrolls" (or pray to talismans, or whatever) in a ritual fashion beforehand but then being able to cast the "spell" quickly at a later time would be amusing; you'd end up with something much like D&D's old "memorized spells". Could be a variant of anchoring, that allows a munadane to re-power an anchor after the spell has triggered, and set so it is empowered for another trigering.
Karoline
I meant more along the lines of the program would just fill in the important information quickly, the original person would still have to do the work for the actual casting. I don't think prepared spells are the way to go (At least not in that manner).

Just running a rough analog, a mundane would buy a fetish of some kind that would allow them tap into mana and cast a particular spell (Just like a program lets them use a particular complex form if we look at TMs backwards). They'd still need the skills such as spellcasting themselves, but it would be different from a true mage's spellcasting, just like a TMs cybercombat is different from a hacker's.

This way it is a big decision, and not something that anyone, even mages, can just pick up for easy magic. It should likely follow the Hacker example in that the person will need to be fairly specialized to do it properly, but if they follow along a mage, that isn't so hard to do anyway.

Perhaps the biggest problem is that there wouldn't be any ware to help out, which is the main advantage a mundane hacker has over a TM, is easy access to wares.
dataweaver
Wouldn't the fetish itself count as the "ware", in this case? The ritualist would need to learn a variation of spellcasting that is dedicated to invoking fetishes, and would collect fetishes instead of learning spells. Thus, ritualists would be to mages as hackers are to technomancers, and fetishes would be to programs as spells are to Complex Forms. And as Mongoose suggests, a ritualist would lack the versatility of a mage when invoking a fetish.

I might even retcon ritualists into the history of Shadowrun, rather than make them an entirely new phenomenon; but prior to Tempo, they had to rely upon meditative trance states in order to invoke fetishes (not unlike how deckers used to completely immerse themselves in cyberspace to do their thing, leaving their bodies totally vulnerable). That didn't leave much of a market for them, what with mages running around: they tended to be thought of as "mage wannabes" by the magical community. As such, there wasn't much of a demand for fetishes. With the advent of Tempo (and, eventually, its safer derivative), matters change: being high on a drug that provides Astral Sight is an acceptable substitute for the trance state, and doesn't render the ritualist helpless in the short term (although Tempo's long-term effects are a different matter). While mages would still have an edge over ritualists (much like technomancers have an edge over hackers), the ritualists would now be able to carve out a comfortable niche for themselves in the magical community, rather than living on its fringes.
Karoline
Right, that sounds good, but I was talking more about the ability to spend essence to improve their abilities. Hackers can get encephalons, math SPUs, headlink, and a bunch of other ware to boost their abilities onto the same playing field as a technomancer. A ritualist would need something similar to put him truly on par with a mage since he wouldn't have a magic score or be able to initiate or do alot of other things that are very important to mage advancement.

I mean they could be viable as 'jack of all trade' types by slowly buying up every kind of fetish and being able to cast every spell in existance.

Then again, there is a question of what would be done to keep them viable since they could never raise their magic in the first place. Even the best ritualists out there would only be able to get 6 or so dice on their spellcasting since they lack a magic score.

Anyway, just some thoughts about what sort of things need to be addressed. I very much like Data's idea of how things more or less work out.
Daylen
well from dunkelzahn's will...

"To the first party to develop a magic item that can be used by a mundane, I leave the medium-sized chunk of orichalcum I keep in my sock drawer at Lake Louise."

"To the first party to successfully invent an artificial mechanism capable of producing and sustaining a magical effect with no assistance from a living magician or spirit, I leave 8 million nuyen for additional research into the fusion of magic and technology. "

between the two of those it sounds like the ol lizard wants a magical program. Ritual magic does not sound like a magical program to me. and I dont think magic items are any more cheesy than a ritual.
LivingOxymoron
What about the drugs themselves? Given the nature of Tempo, what if different drugs are created that basically turn a mundane into a vessel for a particular type of spirit, which then casts a limited number of spells though the user. Massive side effects, probably illegal everywhere and not something I'd want to use in my game, but its an idea.
dataweaver
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 12 2009, 04:28 PM) *
Right, that sounds good, but I was talking more about the ability to spend essence to improve their abilities. Hackers can get encephalons, math SPUs, headlink, and a bunch of other ware to boost their abilities onto the same playing field as a technomancer. A ritualist would need something similar to put him truly on par with a mage since he wouldn't have a magic score or be able to initiate or do a lot of other things that are very important to mage advancement.

Right. A less than satisfying answer, but an answer nonetheless, is that the mystical equivalent of a guy with ware is the Adept; so it's possible that an Adept ritualist might be able to purchase some powers that do for him what headware does for hackers. (It's less than satisfying in part because of the existence of Mystic Adepts, and in part because it violates the notion that ritualists get by strictly on training and resources, without recourse to inherent supernatural ability.

A somewhat more satisfying answer, albeit one of which I'm somewhat leery, is LivingOxymoron's concept of related drugs which attune the character to certain aspects of magic. Depending on the benefit, these could be temporary effects that occur only while under the influence of a given drug, or they could be the magical equivalent of steroids, permanently mutating the subject in order to grant him Adept Powers; combined with the idea of headware-like Adept Powers, this would address the issue that Karoline raised. This latter possibility would reduce Essence the same way that implants do.

On a related note, I've often wondered if there could be a Resonance equivalent to the Adept; one possibility might be that there are individuals who can use Resonance to incorporate cyberware into their body without losing Essence, thus enabling themselves to take on much more ware than a normal metahuman could. It's a subtle enough effect that I could see it going unnoticed for the most part. This is another sort of "completing the square", and strikes me as being a relatively simple change to implement that wouldn't have much impact on the setting. Another possibility might be that a "Resonance Adept" is an individual whose Resonance takes the form of an almost supernatural mechanical aptitude: whether he's an engineer with a penchant for invention (the Shadowrun equivalent of a mad scientist), a mechanic who can work wonders on busted machinery, or a driver who can pull off stunts that you'd normally only expect a rigger to manage, these would be your mechanical geniuses. And without an inherent link to the Matrix like the ones that technomancers have, they'd also be an easily overlooked element of the setting that wouldn't come to light until after people capable of feeling Resonance become commonplace.

QUOTE (Daylen @ Dec 12 2009, 05:12 PM) *
well from dunkelzahn's will...

"To the first party to develop a magic item that can be used by a mundane, I leave the medium-sized chunk of orichalcum I keep in my sock drawer at Lake Louise."

"To the first party to successfully invent an artificial mechanism capable of producing and sustaining a magical effect with no assistance from a living magician or spirit, I leave 8 million nuyen for additional research into the fusion of magic and technology. "

between the two of those it sounds like the ol lizard wants a magical program. Ritual magic does not sound like a magical program to me. and I dont think magic items are any more cheesy than a ritual.

Ritualists, as I've been defining them, could be said to satisfy Dunkelzahn's first clause above, in that a mundane could take a hit of Tempo or a Tempo-equivalent and then wield fetishes the way that mages wield their magical foci (though without nearly as much versatility). If they can also do so by trancing, without the use of a Tempo-like drug, then their existence would either have to have come about after Dunkelzahn's death (was that before the Year of the Comet? I forget.) or that clause would have to be retconned out of the setting, having already been satisfied. If possible, I'd tend to go with the former; I'm looking to keep this idea as low-impact on the setting's history as possible.

The second clause is still unfulfilled - although I wonder if the Dawn of the Artifacts storyline is going to change that. If so, I may end up abandoning this idea - or not, depending on the exact nature of the changes to be introduced in that series: the idea of magical hacker-equivalents has a lot of appeal to me; and I'll probably only abandon it if it turns out that subsequent changes to the setting make the concept unworkable.
Karoline
He died back in the fifties I think... 52 would be an election year, and he was killed right after or during his enaugeration, so that sounds about right.

Ah, it was 57 thanks to an impeachment.

Edit: I'd been wanting to create something recently, so instead of creating a character, I think I'll work on some preliminary rules and items and such for this.
dataweaver
A further refinement on the subject of ritual "ware": the Technomancer equivalent of headware is the Echoes that are made available via Submersion; similarly, the ritualist equivalent of headware would be drugs or fetishes that grant abilities akin to Metamagic. Such items would necessarily be more valuable (and thus pricier) than items that produce spell-like effects, even if they were equally easy to create (and I doubt that they would be).

QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 14 2009, 01:15 PM) *
He died back in the fifties I think... 52 would be an election year, and he was killed right after or during his enaugeration, so that sounds about right.

Ah, it was 57 thanks to an impeachment.

That works. Halley's Comet was in 2061, so the ritualists could have made their first (albeit limited) appearance then, as part of the Second Awakening. That would mean that they've been on the fringe for about a decade, and are only now receiving the tools needed to establish themselves as a vital part of the magical community. Even now, though, they're likely to be looked down on by "real mages", and they should expect an uphill battle in terms of earning respect.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 14 2009, 01:15 PM) *
Edit: I'd been wanting to create something recently, so instead of creating a character, I think I'll work on some preliminary rules and items and such for this.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Karoline
I've only just gotten started (I blame netflix and finally getting around to watching Heroes, having only seen about 3 episodes before), but I have some background worked up.

My concern with the ware is that ritualists either need something they can spend essence on to improve their rituals, or they need to be required to have a high essence. See the balancing factor between magic and non-magic has always been essence. Magic types (Technomancers included) take hits for spending essence, while it is the main currency for non-magic types. It is possible to not give ritualists anything to really spend their essence on, and thus lets them get things like dermal plating or built in commlinks so that they can be more diverse, but I like the idea of ware that will help them out. Some will be less direct of course, like that geneware that helps with willpower based things, that would be useful to ritualists.

I can also thing of a handful of tailored ware. There is for instance a camera that can take pictures of the astral plane. A ware that does something similar could be useful for a ritualist to tell if the magic is doing what he wants it to do or not. And a specilized ware that would remember the various parts of the ritual and warn the person if he did something wrong. Anyway, those are more future considerations, working on some of the basics for now, though it will be an issue of balance in the future.
dataweaver
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 14 2009, 02:56 PM) *
I've only just gotten started (I blame netflix and finally getting around to watching Heroes, having only seen about 3 episodes before), but I have some background worked up.

My concern with the ware is that ritualists either need something they can spend essence on to improve their rituals, or they need to be required to have a high essence. See the balancing factor between magic and non-magic has always been essence. Magic types (Technomancers included) take hits for spending essence, while it is the main currency for non-magic types. It is possible to not give ritualists anything to really spend their essence on, and thus lets them get things like dermal plating or built in commlinks so that they can be more diverse, but I like the idea of ware that will help them out. Some will be less direct of course, like that geneware that helps with willpower based things, that would be useful to ritualists.

Right. The use of steroid-like Awakened drug treatments that grant Metamagic-like abilities but cost Essence should cover this. OTOH, note that hackers don't necessarily need headware to compete with technomancers; a high-quality link can cover a lot of ground. In the same respect, a ritualist with an appropriate "item of power" should be able to compete with a mage without necessarily having to undergo a "magical drug therapy" - although he'll probably still be at a bit of a disadvantage. There's a reason why some hackers are willing to turn themselves into something not quite human in order to compete better.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 14 2009, 02:56 PM) *
I can also thing of a handful of tailored ware. There is for instance a camera that can take pictures of the astral plane. A ware that does something similar could be useful for a ritualist to tell if the magic is doing what he wants it to do or not. And a specilized ware that would remember the various parts of the ritual and warn the person if he did something wrong. Anyway, those are more future considerations, working on some of the basics for now, though it will be an issue of balance in the future.

Like I said, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Mongoose
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Dec 14 2009, 07:08 PM) *
What about the drugs themselves? Given the nature of Tempo, what if different drugs are created that basically turn a mundane into a vessel for a particular type of spirit, which then casts a limited number of spells though the user. Massive side effects, probably illegal everywhere and not something I'd want to use in my game, but its an idea.


That's a good point. There are already awakened compounds that grant critter powers- and spellcasting (for specific spells) could be among those powers.
Kerrang
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Dec 15 2009, 12:52 PM) *
That's a good point. There are already awakened compounds that grant critter powers- and spellcasting (for specific spells) could be among those powers.


Exactly what I was going to suggest. Magic Compounds are found in Street Magic, and Arsenal, and they are basically analogous to potions and salves from from the high fantasy RPGs. They are costly, given the ingredients required, but at GMs discretion they could be made cheaper and more widely available. The negative effects are generally less harmful than drugs like Tempo, and you also do not have to worry about addiction. There are a limited number of compounds detailed in the books, but rules are also provided for coming up with your own compounds.
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