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Argent
Can celerity be selected more than once?

I had an idea for a changeling character physadept based off the Thundercats. It makes sense that a predatory cat could move much faster than a normal metahuman but wanted to see what everyone thought about this.

There are specific qualities that only allow you to select them once but celerity is not one of them. Thanks for the feedback.
Karoline
I would say can only be taken once because when you can take a quality more than once it specifically states as such. All other qualities are presumed to only be able to be selected once, and thus generally aren't mentioned as being so again to save on space. You can't for instance take claws twice or ambidexterity twice (Except in a special case) even though the descriptions don't make an exact mention of such.
Warlordtheft
Usually the advantages and disadvantages will describe it as taking different levels. Gremlins level 1, 2, or 3 for example. Otherwise it can only be taken once.

Delarn
Once only. Take some physad power to get a better speed.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Delarn @ Dec 16 2009, 06:39 AM) *
Once only. Take some physad power to get a better speed.


I'm not sure there is one. So far Celerity and Skimmer Disks are the only options I've found for increasing base movement speed. You can use the rules for inline skates as a gear option but movement boosts seem few and far between.

Argent, you can always ask your GM if you feel that your new Metatype needs more speed to work; however, keep in mind that one level of Celerity is going to let you outrun any metahuman you're likely to ever encounter except perhaps a Koborokuru or Wakyambi. I guess you could get around that by using a Troll as your base - the extra movement for being a Troll would give you a higher base then either the of the Elf or Dwarf subtypes listed above.

You might also ask your GM about creating a movement-boosting adept power to add to your existing Celerity. You might not be able to convince him to give you an always-on, no-cost bonus like Celerity twice, but if you had to spend power points or activate it or roll for it, it starts to look more balanced.
Delarn
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Dec 16 2009, 09:13 PM) *
I'm not sure there is one. So far Celerity and Skimmer Disks are the only options I've found for increasing base movement speed. You can use the rules for inline skates as a gear option but movement boosts seem few and far between.

Argent, you can always ask your GM if you feel that your new Metatype needs more speed to work; however, keep in mind that one level of Celerity is going to let you outrun any metahuman you're likely to ever encounter except perhaps a Koborokuru or Wakyambi. I guess you could get around that by using a Troll as your base - the extra movement for being a Troll would give you a higher base then either the of the Elf or Dwarf subtypes listed above.

You might also ask your GM about creating a movement-boosting adept power to add to your existing Celerity. You might not be able to convince him to give you an always-on, no-cost bonus like Celerity twice, but if you had to spend power points or activate it or roll for it, it starts to look more balanced.


The Wakyambi uses the Troll base. He's as tall as a Troll!
BlackHat
Also, if you want to go faster, there are TONS of athletics-boosting options, and ways to get additional IPs. Use those extra actions to take the "sprint" action and roll your huge athletics DP to increase your speed for a turn.
djinni
A troll with Celerity and no running skill can run 2 miles in 3 minutes.
add skimmer discs to that and you are moving at highway speeds...

QUOTE (Delarn @ Dec 16 2009, 04:30 PM) *
The Wakyambi uses the Troll base. He's as tall as a Troll!

they use Elf movement as a base, they then have celerity trait

Stingray
Celerity + Satyr legs-quality stacs..->real running Troll. biggrin.gif
Metapunk
Though all these great ideas have been mentionen I would like to ask you one thing Argent, do you want it to be something natural for your char, which is explained from the fact that you are a changeling, which is what I understood in your question, reading the quality I would have to agree that rulewise you can't take it more then once, but I'd say that a flexible gm could be talked into allowing it. if I understood your questions correct

Metapunk
Method
I don't mean to rain on anybodys fast moving parade but... um... Why? I don't see the point of building a character for SR around the concept of running real fast. They have cars if you need to get around faster. And ranged weapons. Unless your strategy for surviving combat is to run around real fast there are no mechanical benefits I can think of.

Am I missing something?
Karoline
First, extra IPs don't help with how quickly you run in a turn. Go check the Runner's guide to Running (Made by me).

Second, I have to agree with Method, there really isn't much of an advantage to being able to move a huge distance on foot. Bikes are good for tight areas and cars are good for long distances. Only reason you would need to go fast is to outrun someone, and with that you can just get the celerity and that'd be plenty to outrun basically anyone.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 16 2009, 10:55 PM) *
I don't mean to rain on anybodys fast moving parade but... um... Why? I don't see the point of building a character for SR around the concept of running real fast. They have cars if you need to get around faster. And ranged weapons. Unless your strategy for surviving combat is to run around real fast there are no mechanical benefits I can think of.

Am I missing something?

Wakyambi physad - elf base, with Celerity and Elongated limbs. Give him satyr legs to up his movement rate another 50%. As far as adept powers, give him Traceless Walk, Wall Running, Great Leap 4, and Three Dimensional Memory. Round it out with Att. Boost: Agility and some levels in Power Throw or Enhanced Perception.

Boom, you've got the world's best urban combat courier. He can outrun some vehicles, leap great distances, run up walls, and is either hyper-alert or can toss grenades or caltrops with the best of them.

As a bonus, he could probably earn some street cred/cash for his parkour skills.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 16 2009, 03:55 PM) *
Only reason you would need to go fast is to outrun someone, and with that you can just get the celerity and that'd be plenty to outrun basically anyone.


Got to thinking about this after I posted earlier. If somebody was trying to play a melee character, the ability to close with the enemy in the fewest number of turns is key. Even ranged characters who find themselves out of position will get some milage out of speed. For example, my Roto-drones are packing HVARs, but I still wind up pushing them up to their top speed in most fights to cover the team.

I know conventional wisdom is that movement doesn't matter in SR4, since there's no way short of massive cybermods or mutation to increase it - but anytime you can do something the enemy can't, you've got an edge you need to put to work. I don't know that I'd build a whole new player race around it, but I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.
Argent
As a matter of fact, I wanted to create a melee combat specialist who can close in with the enemy as quickly as possible. I was looking for a natural way of doing this, no cyber, and thought a predatory hunter like a tiger or cheeta would be interesting to play and justify taking celerity multiple times. I guess me and the other GM's in the group will just have to work it out. I find movement in SR4 a little cumbersome especially when you have characters with different IP's but that is a different thread.
BlackHat
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 16 2009, 06:55 PM) *
First, extra IPs don't help with how quickly you run in a turn. Go check the Runner's guide to Running (Made by me).


The extra IPs give you more actions you can waste sprinting while in combat.

Edit: Clarification: Even if you can only sprint once per TURN (not sure if that is the case per not, I thought you could sprint multiple times to further increase your speed), having extra IPs helps by allowing you to do other things by freeing up more actions during that turn.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Argent @ Dec 17 2009, 10:50 AM) *
As a matter of fact, I wanted to create a melee combat specialist who can close in with the enemy as quickly as possible. I was looking for a natural way of doing this, no cyber, and thought a predatory hunter like a tiger or cheeta would be interesting to play and justify taking celerity multiple times. I guess me and the other GM's in the group will just have to work it out. I find movement in SR4 a little cumbersome especially when you have characters with different IP's but that is a different thread.


Spirit + Movement. A player in our current game has a movement rate of 80+ (we more or less stopped figuring it out when we realized it didn't matter, as its his possessed armor's movement speed, which he wasn't wearing at the time)
Method
QUOTE (Wiggles Von Beerchuggin)
Boom, you've got the world's best urban combat courier.

So if I want to play a freakishly-tall African elf with freakishly-long goat legs who's job involves running around in combat to deliver packages this all makes sense? Woah. I can't imagine how I've missed that all these years...

That is the kind of PC that would sit at my table and do nothing because I'm not going to design every run with contrived "Casino Royale"- style parkour chase scenes just so he has something to do.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 17 2009, 11:05 PM) *
So if I want to play a freakishly-tall African elf with freakishly-long goat legs who's job involves running around in combat to deliver packages this all makes sense? Woah. I can't imagine how I've missed that all these years...

That is the kind of PC that would sit at my table and do nothing because I'm not going to design every run with contrived "Casino Royale"- style parkour chase scenes just so he has something to do.

You're right, a movement focused adept with an elf base would be an awful character. Because that speed and high Agility would be useless in combat situations. Just roll up a mage and overcast direct combat spells, because that's the most efficient way to play the game.
etherial
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 17 2009, 11:38 AM) *
Spirit + Movement. A player in our current game has a movement rate of 80+ (we more or less stopped figuring it out when we realized it didn't matter, as its his possessed armor's movement speed, which he wasn't wearing at the time)


Can the armor fly? Otherwise, wouldn't it melt the PC's legs if it tried to go that fast while xe was wearing it?
Draco18s
QUOTE (etherial @ Dec 17 2009, 05:24 PM) *
Can the armor fly? Otherwise, wouldn't it melt the PC's legs if it tried to go that fast while xe was wearing it?


I don't know. On either point.
Method
QUOTE (Wiggles Von Beerchuggin' @ Dec 17 2009, 02:20 PM) *
You're right, a movement focused adept with an elf base would be an awful character. Because that speed and high Agility would be useless in combat situations. Just roll up a mage and overcast direct combat spells, because that's the most efficient way to play the game.

A.) one does not "roll up" characters in SR. If you did this coversation would be even less meaningful because the random nature of rolling for character generation (if done right) forces the player to build a more balanced character.

B.) the mage optimized to overcast direct combat spells generally has all his eggs in one basket too.

C.) I didn't say anything about how you should play the game.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
QUOTE (Method @ Dec 18 2009, 12:53 AM) *
A.) one does not "roll up" characters in SR. If you did this coversation would be even less meaningful because the random nature of rolling for character generation (if done right) forces the player to build a more balanced character.

B.) the mage optimized to overcast direct combat spells generally has all his eggs in one basket too.

C.) I didn't say anything about how you should play the game.

One is pedantic about word choice. Which is funny, considering the lack of capitalization in your sentences.

Someone asked about the viability of a character that can move freakishly fast. The character concept I posted can control combat engagement range effectively, and move himself into positions where an ambush is more viable. With boosted elf-agility and Athletics, he can jump and dodge all over the place. You could easily turn him into an infiltrator, or tail. He can shoot, too.

You focused on "parkour" and "urban combat courier" which is all fluff. Then you slagged the concept, and said that PC would do "nothing" because you can't bother to include something for him in a run.

Awesome.
Karoline
This character would be particularly effective against anything that can only do melee (Such as some overspecilized sams/adepts and most critters) because he could easily keep out of range with runs even with the chaser using sprints to try and keep up. Heck, even if the backup of the sam/adept is only a pistol you can do the same thing by keeping out of range of pistols (40m). Of course the problem there is that you have to be fighting stuff that wants to chase you. Usually if you're hitting a building or something the security is going to be fine with letting you run around while they just hold a defensive position.

You could however use the high speed to get around them for a flank. An automatic with full auto would be good for this. Just lay down cover fire from one direction while a friend does it from the other. They can't get behind cover from both directions, so they'll take some massive damage.

So yeah, some cool uses of the high speed. My main reason for saying it wasn't too helpful earlier is the fact that exact distances aren't generally tracked in SR because minis aren't generally used. Movement speed and weapon ranges are much more important when minis are used because without them it is usually just a 'you're in range' or 'you're not in range' instead of 'you're 35.6m away'.
Bobson
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 17 2009, 09:54 PM) *
Of course the problem there is that you have to be fighting stuff that wants to chase you.


Extraction runs (physical objects or, if strong enough, people): The speedster takes the item and runs. The rest of the team goes out a different way. The defending forces have to decide to chase down the almost impossible to catch (everything else is either too slow or too large) item, or focus on the rest of the team which is heavily armed and doesn't have the item they're supposed to be guarding.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bobson @ Dec 18 2009, 02:07 PM) *
Extraction runs (physical objects or, if strong enough, people): The speedster takes the item and runs. The rest of the team goes out a different way. The defending forces have to decide to chase down the almost impossible to catch (everything else is either too slow or too large) item, or focus on the rest of the team which is heavily armed and doesn't have the item they're supposed to be guarding.



The only real flaw that I can see with that is that even though you can outrun anyone chasing you, you cannot outrun the radio communications of the Security teams... you will eventually get boxed in and have to fight it out, and if you are alone when that happens, you will lose...

Keep the Faith
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