So - the topic makes it fairly clear ... if I can get an official ruling from a dev on this then great but I'm also interested in hearing community opinion.

Simon the Stealthy is wearing a chameleon suit and is sneaking up on Paulo the Perceptive using the Infiltration skill, let's say it's in a background area where there isn't much natural/living stuff - an industrial area.

Paulo is using Astral Perception.

Does Paulo need to take the -4 penalty to his perception tests (in order to spot Simon) because of the chameleon suit? You could argue "the chameleon suit doesn't exist in astral space" but the other way you could argue "astral perception doesn't let you see through walls" so things that impede perception in the realworld™ impede it in the astral.

This is the main area of contention our group just struck. Beyond this, how about the infiltration skill? Can Paulo (with their astral perception) ignore Simon's use of the Infiltration skill? I don't believe he can but I have heard the explanation "In astral, everyone's life signs and auras are bright glowing things that show up really clearly against the background, no way you can sneak up on me!"

Now, I don't think that astral perception should be "immunity to the infiltration skill" but I've had a harder time justifying "chameleon/camoflage suits work versus astrally perceiving people".

What are the thoughts on this, and has a ruling previously been made on this that I should know about?

No - while the chameleon suit does, in fact, have an astral shadow (as do all objects,) as far as astral perception goes, it's just a suit of clothing.


Again, no - infiltration is useful against astral perception (even including a specific specialization,) though in an industrial area with no plants, people or decent cover (astral shadows, again) it'd be hugely penalized.

QFT

While there is some justification from the argument that since astral sight can't see through walls the cham suit should be at least somewhat useful, you have to consider that any clothing would conceal you just as much from astral sight as a cham suit, so you either give no bonus for the suit, or you give some kind of bonus for any sort of clothing that covers your body.

And infiltration isn't just about standing in a shadow. It is about being where the other guy isn't looking, it is about using whatever cover you have available. It is sometimes even about throwing a rock over there so they look where you want at just the right moment.

In the area you are talking about it would be no harder to sneak up on him with him using astral sight than with him using regular sight. There isn't going to be much cover from either kind of sight, and what cover there is will break both kinds of sight.

So, final answer is the only difference between Mr. Perceptive using regular and astral sight is the astral sight will cancel out the -4 from the suit. Otherwise it will be identical in the case you've given.

To me the crux of the matter is what skill is being used when you are trying to spot/find/detect someone while using Astral Perception. Do you use Perception while using Astral Perception? Or do you use Assensing?

By RAW, SR4A p 191:
"Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space."

Also, in Street Magic p114:
"It is important to remember that assensing is a psychic sense. Though it is often referred to and experienced in visual terms, it is not entirely the same as physical sight (which is why blind magicians and ghouls can assense without penalty)."

And the Chameleon Suit states on SR4A p326:
"Chameleon Suit: A full body suit made from ruthenium polymers supported by a sensor suite that scans the surroundings and replicates the images at the proper perspectives, providing the wearer with chameleon abilities. Apply a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to see the wearer. Also armored for additional protection."

To find a sneaking person using Astral Perception, you would roll either a Perception test or an Assensing test. I'm not sure which, as we tend to roll Perception Tests at our table, but some folks use Assensing. Officially, Assensing is used only for interpreting auras, but I've yet to see a page ruling that says that you can use it to detect astral sneaking folks (Does anyone have a page reference?)

In any case, since it is not physical sight, you wouldn't get bonus dice from Visual specializations of Perception and you wouldn't get the -4 dice pool modifier from Chameleon Suits.

Note that you'd probably use the Astral Visibility modifiers on Street Magic p114 instead of normal Perception modifiers.

Actually here's another one.

Can someone incapable of sensing the astral, sneak astrally. (I think the answer is yes, but playing devil's advocate). The two viewscapes are radically different. (though I think a mundane could easily be taught to envisage things astrally just as we do off the descriptions in the book). How would someone trying to infiltrate astrally have any idea where observers such as projecting mages or spirits are? At the very least, someone incapable of astral perception will be at a significant disadvantage.


Also, I disagree w/ Karoline yet again on the perception part. In astral, living entities give off light, other items exist only as matter shadows. Since people run around clothed normally w/ no astral visibility penalty, that is a non-starter. The modifiers are not the same for both. (heavily suggest looking in Street magic in the astral visibility section). It'll be more than just losing the bonuses from the chameleon suit. (if it is an empty urban area like described, street magic actually gives situational bonuses to astral perception!)

So stock tricks of infiltration such as hiding in the shadows are radically different. Just because the astrally perciever can't see you... he can see that there is a light source lighting up that area over there. (which must be a living entity, or other astral construct). Just as you could see, there's a torch behind the corner there by the light it gives off even though you can't see the torch itself.

How to put this, in meatspace... a character standing under a street lamp is lit up by the street lamp. In the astral, the street lamp is lit up by the living entity standing under it. (and other weirdness, such as glass isn't see through on the astral, they're opaque).

I'm not saying there's more or less cover available, just that the way the cover is used is different for an astral infiltrator as opposed to a mundane one. (normally astral infiltration would only be used by a projecting mage, or someone explicitly trying to avoid astral surveillance).

Also, if you're dealing w/ astral. Assensing takes the place of perception.
Quote SR4a 191.
"Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifically trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made."

I think this is one way AR can provide an advantage to someone who is astrally naive. You can place an AR overlay over detectable "living" and "non-living" objects, and thus allow you to see potential living "hotspots" and "deadzones" so you can hide more effectively among living auras or at least totally behind line of sight. At the very least, you can use the concept of "astral contrast" (living against non-living background) to greater effect. The torch example would be entirely more noticeable if it was in an abandoned building versus an alleyway around a corner that was already lit by street lamps (you might not even know there was a torch there because the street lighting or broad daylight would outshine the torch as a light source). Isn't there an astral cover grenade in Arsenal , as well? At the very least, it would provide a distraction so you can sneak off in a different direction.

Thanks for the page reference. I thought I was losing my mind. I should bring it up at my table, since we've been using Perception.

This is heavily incorrect on the lighting part.

In astral you couldn't see a computer screen, you couldn't tell whether the desk lamp was on or off. Those entities only exist as astral shadows.

So someone 'hiding' in a dark alley. To astral the alley isn't dark, there's light pouring out of it. The only way to cover that up is if there were other living astral entities in the near vicinity 'obscuring' that light w/ their own light.

Also just to point this out... Assensing is a trained only skill. If you haven't bought it, you cannot interpret astral auras, or make astral perception tests. Even dual-natured critters... or people who bought astral perception like an adept... they can 'see' the big floaty astral entity attacking them, they just don't know how to interpret it. (and normal stuff applies, such as no need to make a test to see things which are obvious... such as an astral spirit not using concealment/sneaking to approach you/attack you).

Wait wait wait... you're telling me that a person who could NOT astrally perceive could NOT put an AR overlay that predicts what would give off light and what would not in a computer simulation of the astral plane, much like making an AR overlay of Miracle Shooter? This is NOT talking about putting up an AR environment in the astral (which is impossible, you goof)... this is putting up an AR display that allows people who CAN'T astrally perceive use AR to simulate an Astral environment. It wouldn't be perfect, of course. It would have huge problems. But it would allow someone to try to hide from an Astrally Perceiving opponent a fighting chance at stealth. EDIT: I did quote the appropriate passage from you, so as to put my statement in context, and I did state an Astrally Naive individual (someone who can't Astrally Perceive). READ BETTAR!!! *grin* Just kidding.

And light isn't "pouring out" of the alleyway. The only bright and shining beacons on the astral plane are astral entities, like dual natured creatures and astrally projecting mages. Living creatures give off light, but so does the Earth. And even if there was something bright in the alleyway, if there were other living beings around, you might not have a chance to see it off hand. Try figuring out if a porch light is on around a corner at dusk, or with street lights around. I think you'd be surprised at how difficult it is. I did state that a burning torch in an abandoned building would be far more noticeable than a burning torch in an alleyway around a corner with OTHER light sources around to mask it. Such is the same way with a human standing in an abandoned building and a human standing around a corner in an alley, with other humans and possibly astral constructs/spirits floating around near it.

Even then, the analogy isn't perfect, because Astral Perception is not sight. It is blocked by LOS by sight, but it doesn't necessarily have the diffusion that normal lighting does.

Just to add to all of the fun...

If every living thing has an aura, what about insects, micro-flora (yeasts, mods, and etc). Even in a location which is devoid of complex life, there will still be million or even billions of the little guys.

In the example of the dark alley there is probably garbage. Garbage will be festering with life, and therefore with auras. Can you tell at a glance whether that blob over there in the alley is a garbage can full of 200 million yeasts and molds, 4 rats, and 100 thousand cockroaches, or one shadowrunner waiting to ambush you?

You might as well ask "How does Troll Thermovision work?" There's really no way for us to know in 2010, since it's a sense that we don't possess and computer simulations can only tell us so much. The human brain is good at filtering out details and determining what is important and what is not. I'm sure that human astral perception works on a similar manner. Even if all of the bacteria and yeast on your skin was luminescent, that might not create enough light to cause you to see them. Heck, try looking at a low-voltage LED at some point and see if you can determine if it's on or off with other light sources around. At the very least, the glow of the earth would probably mask the micro-flora.

Orcus... look in street magic. It covers all that. Including astral visibility modifiers. You are only partially correct, it's just that small background items like that aren't that significant.

Example: Barren (city streets) +1 visibility, Devoid (no bystanders), +2 dice. That's +3 bonus dice for astrally perception in the OP's example. (while for visual perception there would be a -4 chameleon suit penalty and a nighttime visibility penalty... so call it -6). So which sense is being used makes a huge difference.

The worst possible conditions to be using astral perception is trying to see something hiding n a herd of animals in the middle of a jungle. (-2, -2).



I'm not saying an AR overlay wouldn't be possible.. .it's just that the overlay could not account for everything and anything. You basically would need a full fledged tacnet software, plus a 'reality filter' running on top of that. Also purely astral entities would not show up on it, as they'd be invisibility to your technical sensors. And you wouldn't know how weak/strong auras would be. It's better than nothing yes as an idea, just impractical, and of limited utility IMO.

Also, living auras are bright and vibrant, whether or not they are awakened. Truly awakened are yes brighter, but you're talking about the difference between a 50W and a 100W lightbulb. (let alone masking)

I don't think you'd need a reality filter. Reality Filter is just software that translates machine language to a specific VR sculpting rather than the default. You wouldn't need a tacnet either, since you are simply using software similar to Miracle Shooter. You will need a trid camera or something similar to get visual input. The software would simply take silhouettes and match them up with "living" or "non-living" and give you probabilities on how well you'd be hidden in various locations and "paint" targets with commlink-specific AROs. You wouldn't be able to see astral-only entities, but it's not "SOFTWARE MAEK HIDDEN, HUR HUR". It's just a tool. It would range from completely bloody obvious ideas to someone with an inkling of astral theory (stand in a crowd of living beings to hide) to risk prediction when you approach certain angles. I can see corporations working with their security mages to develop these for their personal use, quite easily... it's pretty much a no-brainer, actually.

I disagree with your assessment of using lightbulbs as a measure of astral visibility, especially since the modifiers for it are far skewed from the 50W and 100W estimation you are making, but that's something people can determine at their own tables, as it isn't vision... it's a psychic sense. For all we know, astrally perceiving entities can "smell" or even "taste" various presences nearby them.

Just so people know, there is a difference between bright and gives off light. Clothing is often described as 'bright and vibrant' even though it gives off no light. So is there anywhere in the books where is specifically says that the aura gives off astral light, or simply that it is bright?

That sort of concentration should be part of the natural background 'lighting' of the Astral. Any place with a LOT of life will be brightly lit even if the life is just trillions of trillions of bacteria, insects, etc.

Assensing should be able to tell you about a particular concentration of 'life'.

I'm just saying that a garbage can full of mold and insects should provide cover. IE give a negative to the astral perception of someone looking for you.

That basically answers the question of how Infiltration works against astral sight.

But the question about light/bright is a good one: do astral forms give off light? I think they do; living things are what causes mana to exist. Most of the stuff on the astral plane that you can see is mana; so mana-generating things do really emit "light".

Quote: Street Magic (112)
"Unlike the dull gray shadows of physical objects, the reflections of living and magical things glow brightly in the astral."
...
"The more complex a living being, the more complex its corresponding aura. While collections of microbes may just cast a hazy glow in astral space, metahuman auras flicker and dance with layers of emotion and composition."
...
"While clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer’s aura,"...

By the way, none of the stuff in Street Magic contravenes or changes what's in SR4a/BBB. It only serves to further clarify and paint a picture of the astral. The astral is a place where 'dead' items only exist as 'grey shadows' of themselves like ghosts. And where living auras 'light' the world. It's familiar enough for us to be able to visualize... but still utterly alien to our normal sense of things in what conceals and what stands out. That is why I said, even in an empty alley, a pile of garbage is not going to obscure compared to the light given off by a living form. Astral infiltration is a completely different mindset than normal infiltration... and would normally only be attempted by a projecting mage trying to infiltrate. (at most living 'junk' would only change urban conditions defined from a +3 astral perception bonus to a +2 astral perception bonus).

IE: I mask my aura to appear mundane like the guards on patrol, then walk behind them as if I was part of the patrol. (guards can't see the astral form, and an astral observer such as a spirit or security mage may probably overlook me). Or similarly.. I quickly duck through a 'wall' in a more 'active' infiltration attempt. (something a normal infiltrator couldn't do or consider).

Then it gets other wierdness... you can't see through windows in astral, by extension you can't see through the fiber optic glass of mage sight systems...


This is why threads like this irritate me a little. You have people who clearly haven't read the rulebooks commenting on 'how it works' answering the OP's question in a manner clearly contradicted by the rulebook.

This is why I normally make it clear when posting on something I'm unsure about, or when there's alternate viewpoints and readings. I am not a final authority, but I can and do read the books and choose not to comment on things when I'm unsure.


Tacnets & reality filters... The entire purpose of a reality filter is to change the way you visualize a node... the purpose of a tacnet is to combine sensor data into usefull AR overlays for tactical purposes (stealth & infiltration included). That's why I said your software is a mix of the two. Just 'seeing' what's in front of you won't help you unless you have some kind of expert system like a tacnet classifying things so the reality filter can display them in your AR astral sneak overlay. See where I'm coming from?
(BTW: simsense can't record astral vision... so that's right out as an option).

I'm suggesting it because I think your idea is cool and has merit, I'm merely suggesting a way to do it using two relatively common and reasonably understood pieces of software already in the game. The unique thing is the specially written reality filter, since normally that wouldn't be used in AR interactions w/ real world. Only in interactions w/ the virtual world. Actually though, a tacnet would already give bonus dice to infiltration tests provided the infiltrator was a contributing member.

I think that "light" doesn't exist in astral space, so torch analogies might be a little off, other weird things are being sensed in astral that make it even stranger for us mundanes to understand, like residual emotions and magical signatures. If a mage and a free spirit fought to the death on top of that garbage in the ally, it could be really strange to "look" at. I think it might be best to stick to the modifiers in the book and imagine how the person was able to hide or not. If my players argue that "they were hiding behind a window", I would argue that the mage "saw" a trail of anxiety leading up to that window.this is why you gotta use assensing vs. perception.

Also the Tac-net overlay is a great idea.