Back in old SR3 days, nobody wanted to play a hacker. In SR2 it was the same as SR1. Now I'm running SR4 and I've got one (AI) hacker in my group - who barely pays scant attention to the rules.
I'm scratching my head why nobody wants to play a hacker in SR4 and why everyone assumes they're boring. I'm tempted to create an all hacker campaign next time to address this where everyone must play a hacker of some sort, and establish some rules about minimum expectations of character class to really encourage people to think laterally - ie. a hacker that is cross skilled, to allow for some flexible play but at the same time stick to a theme.
I wanted to know if anyone else has thought of this or tried this?
- J.
Full Version: All Hacker Game?
The real problem with the 4E rules for hacking is that they require a completely different set of mechanics to use and having to look up those mechanics. There really needs to be a simpler mechanism that interacts with the rest of the system in a way similar to how magic does.
QUOTE (gtjormungand @ Dec 19 2009, 08:36 AM) 
The real problem with the 4E rules for hacking is that they require a completely different set of mechanics to use and having to look up those mechanics.
Huh?Basically it is just that the "Attributes" and some of the skills change, just as with Mages and the astral plane. The "Attributes" are the Programs.
@The Jake: Have you read Otherland by Tad Williams? It is a really good
QUOTE (gtjormungand @ Dec 19 2009, 07:36 AM)
The real problem with the 4E rules for hacking is that they require a completely different set of mechanics to use and having to look up those mechanics. There really needs to be a simpler mechanism that interacts with the rest of the system in a way similar to how magic does.
Then we are clearly talking about different games because 4E is actually quite simple now. So simple infact that I'm of the opinion if people can't use the rules as they exist now, then quite frankly then they will probably never get used.
Infact, I'm almost so lost on the idea that if people aren't willing to play them, then I think you could just as comfortably scrap them entirely from the core rules in the next edition, use them as NPC contacts and there would be almost no change of gameplay for 90% of the groups out there.
- J.
I don't see why people don't want to play hackers or TMs[I understand not playing AI... Not fun for me, particularly]. I had the most fun when being the only one who could hack. n.n It made me feel, even though I failed at combat, as though I had something to offer the rest of the party.
With AR now, Hacking on the fly is soooooo cool !
even here crush the turtle can say it :
Crush: 'Cause we were like, "woaaaah.", and I was like, "woaaaah." and you were like, "woaaahh..."
even here crush the turtle can say it :
Crush: 'Cause we were like, "woaaaah.", and I was like, "woaaaah." and you were like, "woaaahh..."
I think the biggest problems are:
1. People are still traumatized from the old rules and haven't given the new ones a proper chance
2. It generally brings things to a bit of halt because you are usually doing purly matrix stuff (And most of the group sits around listening) or you are doing purely meat stuff (And the hacker sits around listening and getting in one or two shots that will likely miss). I think this is something that can be fixed, having a fight happening in meat while the hacker has to break into a node, but overall it seems to usually be one or the other, not both mixed.
3. The rules are almost too simple if you're just using the basic book, too complex if you add everything from unwired, and overall somewhat uninteresting because you don't have much in the form of tactical options.
4. Advancement really sucks for hackers. You can easily start with a 7 in hacking, a bunch of rating 6 programs, a similar commlink, and basically all the ware you could want for hacking. There is almost nothing to look forward to in becoming a better hacker as you can basically start at the absolute top of your game.
1. People are still traumatized from the old rules and haven't given the new ones a proper chance
2. It generally brings things to a bit of halt because you are usually doing purly matrix stuff (And most of the group sits around listening) or you are doing purely meat stuff (And the hacker sits around listening and getting in one or two shots that will likely miss). I think this is something that can be fixed, having a fight happening in meat while the hacker has to break into a node, but overall it seems to usually be one or the other, not both mixed.
3. The rules are almost too simple if you're just using the basic book, too complex if you add everything from unwired, and overall somewhat uninteresting because you don't have much in the form of tactical options.
4. Advancement really sucks for hackers. You can easily start with a 7 in hacking, a bunch of rating 6 programs, a similar commlink, and basically all the ware you could want for hacking. There is almost nothing to look forward to in becoming a better hacker as you can basically start at the absolute top of your game.
I mentioned this in a post the other day, but I was thinking of setting a campaign during the events of Emergence and running with a heavy shonen element. IE, your players are all experts in one kind of hacking and are pulled together one by one to match up against themed antagonists. One or two of your players probably being technomancers, you could have one of them get kidnapped and have to have the rest of the team try to rescue them.
Could just be that I've been reading a ton of One Piece lately...
Could just be that I've been reading a ton of One Piece lately...
I love Deckers and would certainly welcome more people playing them in my group. Once we did have one guy who read up on all his decking fluff and rules and played with a Seattle based runner team from his jackpoints in the Cal Free. I never found any problems with intergration at all (but then my group has long ago developed the habit for split parties and so on, so it's all same old same old).
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 19 2009, 05:13 PM)
I think the biggest problems are:
1. People are still traumatized from the old rules and haven't given the new ones a proper chance
2. It generally brings things to a bit of halt because you are usually doing purly matrix stuff (And most of the group sits around listening) or you are doing purely meat stuff (And the hacker sits around listening and getting in one or two shots that will likely miss). I think this is something that can be fixed, having a fight happening in meat while the hacker has to break into a node, but overall it seems to usually be one or the other, not both mixed.
3. The rules are almost too simple if you're just using the basic book, too complex if you add everything from unwired, and overall somewhat uninteresting because you don't have much in the form of tactical options.
4. Advancement really sucks for hackers. You can easily start with a 7 in hacking, a bunch of rating 6 programs, a similar commlink, and basically all the ware you could want for hacking. There is almost nothing to look forward to in becoming a better hacker as you can basically start at the absolute top of your game.
1. People are still traumatized from the old rules and haven't given the new ones a proper chance
2. It generally brings things to a bit of halt because you are usually doing purly matrix stuff (And most of the group sits around listening) or you are doing purely meat stuff (And the hacker sits around listening and getting in one or two shots that will likely miss). I think this is something that can be fixed, having a fight happening in meat while the hacker has to break into a node, but overall it seems to usually be one or the other, not both mixed.
3. The rules are almost too simple if you're just using the basic book, too complex if you add everything from unwired, and overall somewhat uninteresting because you don't have much in the form of tactical options.
4. Advancement really sucks for hackers. You can easily start with a 7 in hacking, a bunch of rating 6 programs, a similar commlink, and basically all the ware you could want for hacking. There is almost nothing to look forward to in becoming a better hacker as you can basically start at the absolute top of your game.
Nothing says that you have to start at the absolute top of your game though... and if you really want to be part of the cutting edge, write your own programs/design your own higher end hardware... nothing states that programs are restricted to 6 (in fact, it says quite the opposite in Unwired), but such programs are not readily available, so just write your own... and as for hardware, there are published systems that exceed the rating 6 cap for starting player characters...
Keep the Faith
I think it's a specialization and game-within-a-game issue, and I must admit that one of my weaknesses as a GM is that I don't fully incorporate the Matrix and Astral space into my games as fully as I probably should. Basically, the mechanics and concepts are just barely different and unintuitive enough to cause newer GMs headaches, which encourages them to put off incorporating such environments into the game fully, which only feeds into the problem-- the less you feature those as a primary part of your game, the less interesting they will seem to players and the less they'll feel encouraged to really explore that space. I don't even mean to imply that it's necessarily all a fault of the writers making the rules unwieldy here, either-- I think one of the biggest issues is simply that the Astral and the Matrix both represent a different way of interacting with and perceiving the world. Astral space and full VR deal with things we simply have no true analogs for in our own lives, so it's natural that players and GMs will gravitate towards meatspace while starting off-- it's simply easier to conceptualize and play with on the fly.
And then, of course, as Karoline pointed out, there is the simple issue of table management. If I have 5 players and only 1 of them is dealing with the Astral or full VR, then a lot of the focus will lie in meatspace, with the other two realities mostly being tools with which to interact with the "real world." It is after all the common ground that all players have in common (with AIs being the exception that proves the rule.) This is partly why I said it's a "specialization" issue as well, since Beefy the Troll Tank with a million soak dice can also pose roughly the same problem depending on the group make up. If everyone is geared up for a high society espionage game, he may find himself with a whole lot of nothing to do. And if you toss him a few token combats? Well, everyone else might end up stuck hitting the deck for a while as he Hulks out.
And then, of course, as Karoline pointed out, there is the simple issue of table management. If I have 5 players and only 1 of them is dealing with the Astral or full VR, then a lot of the focus will lie in meatspace, with the other two realities mostly being tools with which to interact with the "real world." It is after all the common ground that all players have in common (with AIs being the exception that proves the rule.) This is partly why I said it's a "specialization" issue as well, since Beefy the Troll Tank with a million soak dice can also pose roughly the same problem depending on the group make up. If everyone is geared up for a high society espionage game, he may find himself with a whole lot of nothing to do. And if you toss him a few token combats? Well, everyone else might end up stuck hitting the deck for a while as he Hulks out.
If your players don't want to play hackers, why do you want to make them?
There are many sorts of approaches you can take with all hacker types. Now, I will confess I don't know all about the SR4 hacking mechanics, but look at some of the various options out there. You could be an information gathering team, like Brill or even the intelligence group in Enemy of the State, using technology to keep tabs on people and then sell that information to different groups.
Another options would be along the lines of a think tank, have them be faced with problems that no one else can solve and they need to apply their talents to getting it done. If you've ever played the System Shock games, or games like Street Hacker, those have some examples of how it could work.
Also, something that may work in SR is a specialized group of 'hackers'. Initially hackers would form little groups like that, where one might be a skilled virus writer, this one knows security, another knows phone technology. They could be specialists in their own fields, much like you ere saying, have them be techie/sammy, techie/face, techie/magic, etc. Though the stories would have to require all of them to use their techie sides regularly, or else it would just seem like it was tacked on.
Another options would be along the lines of a think tank, have them be faced with problems that no one else can solve and they need to apply their talents to getting it done. If you've ever played the System Shock games, or games like Street Hacker, those have some examples of how it could work.
Also, something that may work in SR is a specialized group of 'hackers'. Initially hackers would form little groups like that, where one might be a skilled virus writer, this one knows security, another knows phone technology. They could be specialists in their own fields, much like you ere saying, have them be techie/sammy, techie/face, techie/magic, etc. Though the stories would have to require all of them to use their techie sides regularly, or else it would just seem like it was tacked on.
The hacker in our game eats up most of the time, checking things, planting databombs, disabling security, unlocking doors, signing our fake SINs up as employees. He really does play most of the time, the other 3 of us usually just sit around for 2hrs, before our run actually starts.
I dunno if this is specifically related but I think it highlights something -
In my last session the players were being hunted by Lone Star for various crimes (events in the car park shootout in Ghost Cartels, where the PCs were quite careless). In short, they have no rigger in the party, the team hacker was absent that day and they needed a ride. So they rely on their (poor) pilot/hardware/mechanic skills and some Edge to break into a car and steal it. They normally do this selectively, being picky about which cars and where they do it - and so they've never felt the full ire of the Star (or the GM). This session they did it in broad daylight in a B neighbourhood zone. So I had the car tracked, cops arrive and it just went downhill.
The players were kicking themselves and blaming their pitiful dicerolling when I had to point out (something along these lines):
"Guys - what the hell do you expect? Not one of you wants to play a rigger. Not one of you has a car that isn't stolen or wanted for something by somebody. None of you even paid karma for your driving skill and not one of you wants to learn how to hack either. You then decide to steal a car in a decent security zone! You bring this shit on yourselves by trying to do things your characters are not built for and nobody wants to take on the responsibility of fulfilling these gaps within the team. Seriously. You reap what you sow."
This wasn't me being an a$$hole about it either. They've stolen cars like this at least 5 times in game by my count and I didn't want to throw the cops at them every time. But it makes sense that one day, somewhere, they'd screw up and feel the heat -- this was that moment. They kept doing this thinking that they'd a) never be stung on it or b) could weasel their way out of it if they did. And it all stems from the view that they don't need to build a balanced team.
Oh well. Hopefully they'll learn....
- J.
In my last session the players were being hunted by Lone Star for various crimes (events in the car park shootout in Ghost Cartels, where the PCs were quite careless). In short, they have no rigger in the party, the team hacker was absent that day and they needed a ride. So they rely on their (poor) pilot/hardware/mechanic skills and some Edge to break into a car and steal it. They normally do this selectively, being picky about which cars and where they do it - and so they've never felt the full ire of the Star (or the GM). This session they did it in broad daylight in a B neighbourhood zone. So I had the car tracked, cops arrive and it just went downhill.
The players were kicking themselves and blaming their pitiful dicerolling when I had to point out (something along these lines):
"Guys - what the hell do you expect? Not one of you wants to play a rigger. Not one of you has a car that isn't stolen or wanted for something by somebody. None of you even paid karma for your driving skill and not one of you wants to learn how to hack either. You then decide to steal a car in a decent security zone! You bring this shit on yourselves by trying to do things your characters are not built for and nobody wants to take on the responsibility of fulfilling these gaps within the team. Seriously. You reap what you sow."
This wasn't me being an a$$hole about it either. They've stolen cars like this at least 5 times in game by my count and I didn't want to throw the cops at them every time. But it makes sense that one day, somewhere, they'd screw up and feel the heat -- this was that moment. They kept doing this thinking that they'd a) never be stung on it or b) could weasel their way out of it if they did. And it all stems from the view that they don't need to build a balanced team.
Oh well. Hopefully they'll learn....
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 19 2009, 02:42 AM)
Infact, I'm almost so lost on the idea that if people aren't willing to play them, then I think you could just as comfortably scrap them entirely from the core rules in the next edition, use them as NPC contacts and there would be almost no change of gameplay for 90% of the groups out there.
That would be me. TRON the RPG has never really appealed to me.
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Dec 20 2009, 03:47 AM)
If your players don't want to play hackers, why do you want to make them?
It's a sadly neglected element of the game that has a lot to offer. I would like to explore it more.
I don't much enjoyment running games that make zero (or next to zero) use of the Matrix.
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 20 2009, 01:10 AM)
This wasn't me being an a$$hole about it either. They've stolen cars like this at least 5 times in game by my count and I didn't want to throw the cops at them every time. But it makes sense that one day, somewhere, they'd screw up and feel the heat -- this was that moment. They kept doing this thinking that they'd a) never be stung on it or b) could weasel their way out of it if they did. And it all stems from the view that they don't need to build a balanced team.
Oh well. Hopefully they'll learn....
- J.
Oh well. Hopefully they'll learn....
- J.
I think your depiction of the game world is reasonable, but on the other hand, I cannot help but sympathize with the players a bit, simply because it's pretty much impossible to convince me to play a Rigger.
I have never liked playing a rigger because you put all those BP into buying drones only to have them be the first thing that normally gets shot up. And more than likely you'll be spending a good portion of your cut just fixing them. It's not very often other teamates are willing to help cover the costs.
Back on topic, I don't mind playing a hacker. They can be a lot of fun, especially in games where the team doesn't focus on combat.
Back on topic, I don't mind playing a hacker. They can be a lot of fun, especially in games where the team doesn't focus on combat.
To me it's a flavor thing. I'm just not a gearhead. Closest I can get is a small drone "rigger" that's really more of a Hacker/snoop.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 19 2009, 09:16 PM)
Nothing says that you have to start at the absolute top of your game though... and if you really want to be part of the cutting edge, write your own programs/design your own higher end hardware... nothing states that programs are restricted to 6 (in fact, it says quite the opposite in Unwired), but such programs are not readily available, so just write your own... and as for hardware, there are published systems that exceed the rating 6 cap for starting player characters...
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
Two questions prompted by this:
1) Different people seem to have different takes on whether a player can write software above rating 6.
In particular, since the optimize component is separate, it seems that in order to test the program one could conclude that one has to be able to run it at its rating. If so, how do you do so? (It is also reasonable to say that is not a problem, that you can run it degraded, and still test it thoroughly. It probably depends upon your mental model of all these things, and is not described in fluff.)
2) Except for a couple of high end rating 7 corp (Zurich) systems, I don't think there is much above rating 6. Is there a way a player can get above 6, without an AI to help out, either starting or during play?
Thanks,
Joel
Well, some things to do if you want to really use the Matrix:
- Make up your mind on how all that visualization really works; what it means. Reading some good novels can't hurt; Neuromancer and it's follow-ups. Palace by Katherine Kerr and Mark Kreighbaum is also very focused on things on the "Map", I'm re-reading it myself for ideas right now.
- Study network topology (a bit); some understanding of real-world security-through-design helps to make believable challenges without needing to use elite IC all the time. It also gives you more ideas on how to make hacking more varied.
- Look beyond the "core" of hacking; hackers have other classic interests. I've met several who engaged in speed-lockpicking competitions for example. Social engineering is another side skill; style and design for the visual Matrix is another. Being able to show your players the different directions in which they can develop is crucial.
- Make sure there are enough interesting people and spots on the matrix. I really liked the Target: Matrix book for this.
- A problem with hackers is that they start close to the end of their core development; you need to change that. Work out some form of software degradation rules. Keeping up should be part of the struggle; all their competitors are constantly improving security and attack forms. Once you consider software ratings as relative to the rest, instead of an absolute quality, this makes sense. Call it keeping up with the state of the art.
You can work out your own SOTA system; I'm working on one for my own group intended to be simpler and less open to abuse than the Unwired one. When it's done I'll publish it here.
- Make up your mind on how all that visualization really works; what it means. Reading some good novels can't hurt; Neuromancer and it's follow-ups. Palace by Katherine Kerr and Mark Kreighbaum is also very focused on things on the "Map", I'm re-reading it myself for ideas right now.
- Study network topology (a bit); some understanding of real-world security-through-design helps to make believable challenges without needing to use elite IC all the time. It also gives you more ideas on how to make hacking more varied.
- Look beyond the "core" of hacking; hackers have other classic interests. I've met several who engaged in speed-lockpicking competitions for example. Social engineering is another side skill; style and design for the visual Matrix is another. Being able to show your players the different directions in which they can develop is crucial.
- Make sure there are enough interesting people and spots on the matrix. I really liked the Target: Matrix book for this.
- A problem with hackers is that they start close to the end of their core development; you need to change that. Work out some form of software degradation rules. Keeping up should be part of the struggle; all their competitors are constantly improving security and attack forms. Once you consider software ratings as relative to the rest, instead of an absolute quality, this makes sense. Call it keeping up with the state of the art.
You can work out your own SOTA system; I'm working on one for my own group intended to be simpler and less open to abuse than the Unwired one. When it's done I'll publish it here.
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Dec 20 2009, 12:40 AM)
Two questions prompted by this:
1) Different people seem to have different takes on whether a player can write software above rating 6.
In particular, since the optimize component is separate, it seems that in order to test the program one could conclude that one has to be able to run it at its rating. If so, how do you do so? (It is also reasonable to say that is not a problem, that you can run it degraded, and still test it thoroughly. It probably depends upon your mental model of all these things, and is not described in fluff.)
2) Except for a couple of high end rating 7 corp (Zurich) systems, I don't think there is much above rating 6. Is there a way a player can get above 6, without an AI to help out, either starting or during play?
Thanks,
Joel
1) Different people seem to have different takes on whether a player can write software above rating 6.
In particular, since the optimize component is separate, it seems that in order to test the program one could conclude that one has to be able to run it at its rating. If so, how do you do so? (It is also reasonable to say that is not a problem, that you can run it degraded, and still test it thoroughly. It probably depends upon your mental model of all these things, and is not described in fluff.)
2) Except for a couple of high end rating 7 corp (Zurich) systems, I don't think there is much above rating 6. Is there a way a player can get above 6, without an AI to help out, either starting or during play?
Thanks,
Joel
Agreed. The book says
QUOTE
Matrix attributes generally range in scale from 1 to 6, with the
lower ratings indicating cheap, outdated, or salvaged components/
soft ware and higher ratings refl ecting well-made parts/code. Some
cutting-edge and prototype models may exceed rating 6 attributes,
but these are exceptionally rare and hard to come by.
lower ratings indicating cheap, outdated, or salvaged components/
soft ware and higher ratings refl ecting well-made parts/code. Some
cutting-edge and prototype models may exceed rating 6 attributes,
but these are exceptionally rare and hard to come by.
QUOTE
Programs have variable ratings, normally in the range
from 1 to 6, though some cutting-edge or military-grade
software can rank higher.
from 1 to 6, though some cutting-edge or military-grade
software can rank higher.
This seems to me to indicate that anything above 6 should be exceedingly rare. In fact I recall (but can't find) some mention of rating 7 programs and hardware being rare and valuable enough to be the focus of an entire run. I don't think you're just going to be able to cobble together your own higher rating code by writing it in your basement. If it was that easy corps would have a bunch of rating 12+ programs defending all their nodes and no hacker would ever be able break into a corp.
Oh, and one problem I see with an all hacker game is that there isn't much room for specialization among hackers (one of the reasons that there is rarely more than 1 hacker in a group). The most important skill is easily hacking followed by potentially cybercombat (Depends on how good you are at hacking and how good your stealth is). Once you have two people who are maxed out in that, other roles are fairly limited. Computer, data search, hardware, software, and ECM don't generally need really high skills to be effective, and don't benefit alot from being higher either (Not a big deal that you can do a data search in 4 minutes instead of 5 generally). This isn't so much a problem as far as a group of hackers would go (Having several people that can break in and fight ICs is a good thing for a matrix gang), but much more so as a group of PCs go because it will be hard for people to shine, and that is generally important to a game being fun.
If I got involved in a game my Chaos Mage would also cross class as a hacker. "Why the frak would he do that?!?" is most likely the question most of you are asking.
The reason is that he is thinking along similar lines (reality can be "Hacked") and this would be the final step. Yes, compared to pure hackers he's meat, but I think it would make the character much more well rounded.
It also doesn't hurt that the character concept that I have has both of the mages hands replaced with cyber hands and he has a commlink (and datajack and Orientation System) stuffed into one (and a Radar sensor and Olfactory Booster in the other). If my character learns Masking he can reasonably pull off being a mundane hacker... who the heck expects a mage to have TWO cyberhands?
The reason is that he is thinking along similar lines (reality can be "Hacked") and this would be the final step. Yes, compared to pure hackers he's meat, but I think it would make the character much more well rounded.
It also doesn't hurt that the character concept that I have has both of the mages hands replaced with cyber hands and he has a commlink (and datajack and Orientation System) stuffed into one (and a Radar sensor and Olfactory Booster in the other). If my character learns Masking he can reasonably pull off being a mundane hacker... who the heck expects a mage to have TWO cyberhands?
QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Dec 19 2009, 10:40 PM)
Two questions prompted by this:
1) Different people seem to have different takes on whether a player can write software above rating 6.
In particular, since the optimize component is separate, it seems that in order to test the program one could conclude that one has to be able to run it at its rating. If so, how do you do so? (It is also reasonable to say that is not a problem, that you can run it degraded, and still test it thoroughly. It probably depends upon your mental model of all these things, and is not described in fluff.)
2) Except for a couple of high end rating 7 corp (Zurich) systems, I don't think there is much above rating 6. Is there a way a player can get above 6, without an AI to help out, either starting or during play?
Thanks,
Joel
1) Different people seem to have different takes on whether a player can write software above rating 6.
In particular, since the optimize component is separate, it seems that in order to test the program one could conclude that one has to be able to run it at its rating. If so, how do you do so? (It is also reasonable to say that is not a problem, that you can run it degraded, and still test it thoroughly. It probably depends upon your mental model of all these things, and is not described in fluff.)
2) Except for a couple of high end rating 7 corp (Zurich) systems, I don't think there is much above rating 6. Is there a way a player can get above 6, without an AI to help out, either starting or during play?
Thanks,
Joel
Well, let me see if I can help here...
First, System Architecture indicates that you can indeed get beyond Rating 6 for Hardware and software packages on a system... see Zurich Orbital (Rating 9 Firewall, Rating 8 System and Response) statistics in Unwired... and the entry on Ultraviolet systems requires that the systems have ratings of 10 (in all categories except Signal) to qualify, so there is crunch that indicates that the barrier of 6 is only a barrier for character creation... if you want higher rated hardware/system resources, you would have to build them yourselves...
Second, Software design indicates that there are software packages rated above 6 in the Cutting Edge Sidebar of Unwired... Ratings of 7 or higher do exist (Usually used by government and military operatives, special hacker units or corporate operatives... you wnat such high-end software, you create it yourself...
Are these common... NO... Could you program them in your basement... Maybe... there are real world examples of elite hackers that program high end worms/viruii in their basement...
But that is not how it works in our game... you need specialized systems (rated at Shop level as a minimum, and preferably a facility) to create such software, and you must follow the time intervals to do so... took me 9 months to craft a Rated 7 Agent with options... it is a very worthwile piece of software, as it is not common, and is very useful... some sfotware can be programmed in short order (intervals of a Month) while others take a while (intervals of 3+ Months), and the thresholds are difficult for the higher end stuff; combined with the decrementing Extended Roll Rules (-1 Dice per roll, Cumulative) you may or may not have wasted your time in the creation of the software you are interested in...
It has been very well balanced in our game, and is no more powerful than the Technomancer who can thread to 2x their Resonance in their CF's (as a relatively quick action in comparison No Less)... and keeps the hacker who really cares at the cutting/bleeding edge of the power scale (if you are using the hacking rules in the first place, which apparently a lot of people do not, if the comments on Dumpshock are any indicator)...
I like the fact that they left it open to allow the hacker to do such things in cannon... and it makes a lot of sense... If some people see it as beeing overpowered, maybe they are not using the Matrix to its full potential...
As for Hacking taking up a lot of time, I have yet to truly see that at our table, but that is of course subjective... everyone participates in simultaneous actions within meat/matrix/astral space on their actions... but then again, we have an exceptional GM as well, who is capable of running a seamless integration of the various themes in the game... the character that I am playing has been doing so for 28 months, and it is only getting more interesting as time goes along...
The question arises then: What about astral/Resonance Quests? Well, when we have a character (2 mages and a Technomancer) who wishes to peform a quest, the rest of the characters tag along as either astral entities (on the Astral Quest) or Resonance Memories (ont eh Resonance Quest) so that no one is left out... we still play our characters, but they take on different aspects of memory from the initiating character of the Quest (Hell, sometimes on astral quests, we even go as our physical selves due to the Astral Gateway Power)... this has left everyone very happy indeed...
Hope that I have answered the questions put forth JoelHalpern... if not, let me know...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 20 2009, 11:51 AM)
Well, some things to do if you want to really use the Matrix:
- Make up your mind on how all that visualization really works; what it means. Reading some good novels can't hurt; Neuromancer and it's follow-ups. Palace by Katherine Kerr and Mark Kreighbaum is also very focused on things on the "Map", I'm re-reading it myself for ideas right now.
- Study network topology (a bit); some understanding of real-world security-through-design helps to make believable challenges without needing to use elite IC all the time. It also gives you more ideas on how to make hacking more varied.
- Look beyond the "core" of hacking; hackers have other classic interests. I've met several who engaged in speed-lockpicking competitions for example. Social engineering is another side skill; style and design for the visual Matrix is another. Being able to show your players the different directions in which they can develop is crucial.
- Make sure there are enough interesting people and spots on the matrix. I really liked the Target: Matrix book for this.
- A problem with hackers is that they start close to the end of their core development; you need to change that. Work out some form of software degradation rules. Keeping up should be part of the struggle; all their competitors are constantly improving security and attack forms. Once you consider software ratings as relative to the rest, instead of an absolute quality, this makes sense. Call it keeping up with the state of the art.
You can work out your own SOTA system; I'm working on one for my own group intended to be simpler and less open to abuse than the Unwired one. When it's done I'll publish it here.
- Make up your mind on how all that visualization really works; what it means. Reading some good novels can't hurt; Neuromancer and it's follow-ups. Palace by Katherine Kerr and Mark Kreighbaum is also very focused on things on the "Map", I'm re-reading it myself for ideas right now.
- Study network topology (a bit); some understanding of real-world security-through-design helps to make believable challenges without needing to use elite IC all the time. It also gives you more ideas on how to make hacking more varied.
- Look beyond the "core" of hacking; hackers have other classic interests. I've met several who engaged in speed-lockpicking competitions for example. Social engineering is another side skill; style and design for the visual Matrix is another. Being able to show your players the different directions in which they can develop is crucial.
- Make sure there are enough interesting people and spots on the matrix. I really liked the Target: Matrix book for this.
- A problem with hackers is that they start close to the end of their core development; you need to change that. Work out some form of software degradation rules. Keeping up should be part of the struggle; all their competitors are constantly improving security and attack forms. Once you consider software ratings as relative to the rest, instead of an absolute quality, this makes sense. Call it keeping up with the state of the art.
You can work out your own SOTA system; I'm working on one for my own group intended to be simpler and less open to abuse than the Unwired one. When it's done I'll publish it here.
I think you're getting closer to the mark here about my particular group dynamic.
Of my SR gaming group 3 of us work in IT (2 of us in IT Security, all of us technical enough to know what would work IRL). It could be that more often than not, the last sort of roles we'd take would be hackers for that reason.
But I've seen this pattern with multiple groups in Shadowrun where nobody wanted to take on this role.
I definitely do/have done just about everything on that list. I just read Charles Stross 'Halting State' earlier this year and loved it. Looking for other Matrix-style books now (Brasyl and Snow Crash I think was next).
- J.
My experience is that the more you know about computer security and networks the stupider and more incomprehensible the matrix rules become.
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 21 2009, 12:08 AM)
My experience is that the more you know about computer security and networks the stupider and more incomprehensible the matrix rules become.
So true. The one hacker at my table isn't that IT savvy (but is planning on working in IT) and I've told him to completely dismiss what he knows of IT in real life. It doesn't help.
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 20 2009, 04:37 PM)
So true. The one hacker at my table isn't that IT savvy (but is planning on working in IT) and I've told him to completely dismiss what he knows of IT in real life. It doesn't help.
- J.
- J.
But that is funny... I know a fair bit, work in the industry, and have friends that do so as well... when I game in Shadowrun, I just leave that knowledge behind... it is a game, not a reality simulator...
Keep the Faith
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