I have what I think is an interesting idea for a character, the problem is I have no idea how to build him and wanted something a little more concrete before going to my GM. A friend directed me here for advice. The idea briefly is this: a suicidal houngan decides to give himself over to the loa (read inhabitation by ally spirit). So the player would in essence be the amnesiac ally spirit inhabiting the houngan's body (preferably in a hybrid merge). Is there any way to do this at chargen (to fit the concept) and without totally unbalancing the game?
The second question is really my main concern. I know this could be done using Karmagen (though again the details I'm not quite clear on - would you build the houngan first, then the ally and combine the two or just build the ally?), but I don't want to ruin the game or my enjoyment with a completely overpowered/underpowered character. Can it be done?
Full Version: Inhabitation Ally Spirit PC
QUOTE (Symphonic @ Dec 21 2009, 04:02 PM) 
I have what I think is an interesting idea for a character, the problem is I have no idea how to build him and wanted something a little more concrete before going to my GM. A friend directed me here for advice. The idea briefly is this: a suicidal houngan decides to give himself over to the loa (read inhabitation by ally spirit). So the player would in essence be the amnesiac ally spirit inhabiting the houngan's body (preferably in a hybrid merge). Is there any way to do this at chargen (to fit the concept) and without totally unbalancing the game?
The second question is really my main concern. I know this could be done using Karmagen (though again the details I'm not quite clear on - would you build the houngan first, then the ally and combine the two or just build the ally?), but I don't want to ruin the game or my enjoyment with a completely overpowered/underpowered character. Can it be done?
The second question is really my main concern. I know this could be done using Karmagen (though again the details I'm not quite clear on - would you build the houngan first, then the ally and combine the two or just build the ally?), but I don't want to ruin the game or my enjoyment with a completely overpowered/underpowered character. Can it be done?
What you are looking for is in Runners Companion. The character is a Free Spirit.
Under no circumstances do you ever make 2 characters then combine them. It WILL unbalance the game. Nor can you do it during game play. Although an ally spirit is great friends (loyalty 6) with the creator it is still an NPC under the control of the GM. The GM may allow the creator control of the spirit as long as the spirit remains friendly to the creator but it is still an NPC. If an inhabitation ally spirit inhabits the creator the spirit will either die (if low force) or become a free spirit. In both scenarios the creator dies because the spirit kills its host when it merges. Inhabitation is not possession. If your GM lets you do this it should be written up as a free spirit because making the mage then the ally spirit and combining the two would make a completely overpowered character.
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 21 2009, 03:31 PM)
What you are looking for is in Runners Companion. The character is a Free Spirit.
Under no circumstances do you ever make 2 characters then combine them. It WILL unbalance the game. Nor can you do it during game play. Although an ally spirit is great friends (loyalty 6) with the creator it is still an NPC under the control of the GM. The GM may allow the creator control of the spirit as long as the spirit remains friendly to the creator but it is still an NPC. If an inhabitation ally spirit inhabits the creator the spirit will either die (if low force) or become a free spirit. In both scenarios the creator dies because the spirit kills its host when it merges. Inhabitation is not possession. If your GM lets you do this it should be written up as a free spirit because making the mage then the ally spirit and combining the two would make a completely overpowered character.
Under no circumstances do you ever make 2 characters then combine them. It WILL unbalance the game. Nor can you do it during game play. Although an ally spirit is great friends (loyalty 6) with the creator it is still an NPC under the control of the GM. The GM may allow the creator control of the spirit as long as the spirit remains friendly to the creator but it is still an NPC. If an inhabitation ally spirit inhabits the creator the spirit will either die (if low force) or become a free spirit. In both scenarios the creator dies because the spirit kills its host when it merges. Inhabitation is not possession. If your GM lets you do this it should be written up as a free spirit because making the mage then the ally spirit and combining the two would make a completely overpowered character.
It's hard to disseminate the true information from the false in this post.
1) What he's looking for is in Street Magic.
2) Yes and no. Using the Karmagen system (and using the Initiation variant rule), you can make an Ally Spirit using the Ally Spirit Initiation, and cleverly buy certain skills for the express reason of being able to add them to your Ally Spirit (IE: buy Blades at rank 1, spend 5 karma to have your Ally Spirit know it at its Force). If your GM allows you to retain control of the Ally Spirit post-merge (on the DS forums here, many, many, many people would go rabid at the very thought), then you found an extremely clever way to get much more mileage out of your karmagen.
3) Yes, it will unbalance the game.
4) Actually, you absolutely can do this during game play. The link in my signature details multiple methods.
5) Ally Spirits are considered spirits that are permanently bound, owing you unlimited favors (although admittantly, they are also listed as being Loyalty 6 if it helps you understand them). Only if you tick them off enough (GM's discretion), and only during a rebinding ritual, can they attempt to break free, and then they would become contacts.
6) The fact that low force Ally Spirits automatically "die" (which is actually a misrepresentation - it may just permanently go back to its metaplane of origin. Also, you need to define what "life" is to have something die...) is using a generalization of the Free Spirit section of Street Magic. As a GM myself I would rule that they all automatically are considered close to metahumanity, and thus have a much higher chance of going free.
7) Are people still arguing if the caster dies when Inhabited? Granted, most of the time they do, but read the freaking section!! If it makes for a good story (read: if something potentially awsome can happen for the players), then the host does not neccessarily die.
Inhabitation is not Possession, you are correct.9) Yes, this will create an absolutely powerful character - if built correctly. If built poorly, not so much. Like all characters, this method of creation (Inhabitation fun-ness) can be used to make something terrifyingly powerful or almost ridiculously useless.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 21 2009, 11:59 PM)
It's hard to disseminate the true information from the false in this post.
1) What he's looking for is in Street Magic.
2) Yes and no. Using the Karmagen system (and using the Initiation variant rule), you can make an Ally Spirit using the Ally Spirit Initiation, and cleverly buy certain skills for the express reason of being able to add them to your Ally Spirit (IE: buy Blades at rank 1, spend 5 karma to have your Ally Spirit know it at its Force). If your GM allows you to retain control of the Ally Spirit post-merge (on the DS forums here, many, many, many people would go rabid at the very thought), then you found an extremely clever way to get much more mileage out of your karmagen.
3) Yes, it will unbalance the game.
4) Actually, you absolutely can do this during game play. The link in my signature details multiple methods.
5) Ally Spirits are considered spirits that are permanently bound, owing you unlimited favors (although admittantly, they are also listed as being Loyalty 6 if it helps you understand them). Only if you tick them off enough (GM's discretion), and only during a rebinding ritual, can they attempt to break free, and then they would become contacts.
6) The fact that low force Ally Spirits automatically "die" (which is actually a misrepresentation - it may just permanently go back to its metaplane of origin. Also, you need to define what "life" is to have something die...) is using a generalization of the Free Spirit section of Street Magic. As a GM myself I would rule that they all automatically are considered close to metahumanity, and thus have a much higher chance of going free.
7) Are people still arguing if the caster dies when Inhabited? Granted, most of the time they do, but read the freaking section!! If it makes for a good story (read: if something potentially awsome can happen for the players), then the host does not neccessarily die.
Inhabitation is not Possession, you are correct.
9) Yes, this will create an absolutely powerful character - if built correctly. If built poorly, not so much. Like all characters, this method of creation (Inhabitation fun-ness) can be used to make something terrifyingly powerful or almost ridiculously useless.
1) What he's looking for is in Street Magic.
2) Yes and no. Using the Karmagen system (and using the Initiation variant rule), you can make an Ally Spirit using the Ally Spirit Initiation, and cleverly buy certain skills for the express reason of being able to add them to your Ally Spirit (IE: buy Blades at rank 1, spend 5 karma to have your Ally Spirit know it at its Force). If your GM allows you to retain control of the Ally Spirit post-merge (on the DS forums here, many, many, many people would go rabid at the very thought), then you found an extremely clever way to get much more mileage out of your karmagen.
3) Yes, it will unbalance the game.
4) Actually, you absolutely can do this during game play. The link in my signature details multiple methods.
5) Ally Spirits are considered spirits that are permanently bound, owing you unlimited favors (although admittantly, they are also listed as being Loyalty 6 if it helps you understand them). Only if you tick them off enough (GM's discretion), and only during a rebinding ritual, can they attempt to break free, and then they would become contacts.
6) The fact that low force Ally Spirits automatically "die" (which is actually a misrepresentation - it may just permanently go back to its metaplane of origin. Also, you need to define what "life" is to have something die...) is using a generalization of the Free Spirit section of Street Magic. As a GM myself I would rule that they all automatically are considered close to metahumanity, and thus have a much higher chance of going free.
7) Are people still arguing if the caster dies when Inhabited? Granted, most of the time they do, but read the freaking section!! If it makes for a good story (read: if something potentially awsome can happen for the players), then the host does not neccessarily die.
Inhabitation is not Possession, you are correct.9) Yes, this will create an absolutely powerful character - if built correctly. If built poorly, not so much. Like all characters, this method of creation (Inhabitation fun-ness) can be used to make something terrifyingly powerful or almost ridiculously useless.
It's hard to disseminate the true information from the false in this post.
1) Yes, Ally spirits are in street magic... I was telling him to make a free spirit since that is what he is doing... Although you are making an ally spirit to deliberately warp the rules to make a more powerful free spirit.
2) Yes, using karmagen you can start with initiation and an ally spirit... It is also a GM approval thing...
3) Already said...
4) The aspect of Neraph's comment is true. HOWEVER, only by GM approval could you possibly create two characters. The summoner (original character) and the merged character. Starting or during play. And at that only a GM can approve of you sacrificing one to the other. It would be the same as making a character skimping points on physical stats and then brain-in-a-jar him. There are clear rules for cyborgs. That is not allowed in the rules. There are clear rules for what you are trying to do and you are attempting to find a not-by-RAW loophole in the system to do it.
5) I am not sure what Neraph is referencing here. I believe he is talking about who ultimately controls an ally spirit. Just because it owes you services and is super loyal to you does not make it any different than any other spirit which is an NPC. Most, if not all, GM's allow a player to control the spirits it summons but a GM still has the right to say the spirit would not perform the action.
6) It is true that a low force spirit will return to its metaplane and not actually die. However, since a low force spirit would probably be unwilling to return under its own volition it is similar to death. 6 of one and all that...
7) I have read the section! Why don't you! Street Magic pg 100 Inhabitation
QUOTE
During merging, the vessel's original spirit (if present) is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost (though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories).
Yes, the GM may decide if the character lives. But that is a GM choice.
8} whatever...
9) Can it possibly be done... MAYBE.
Neraph is intentionally attempting to warp the nature of the rules. That is fine in his games and if you can slip it past your GM more power to you. But by RAW you can not do it.
By RAW everything is GM approval. Even basic characters. However, GM approval to bend or break rules-as-written creates a houserule.
On a similar note.... An ally spirit (loyalty 6, friend for life, brother/sister) would NOT kill it's friend. It knows the rules for inhabitation (GM handwavium aside) and would know that.
How about this Neraph. I make a mage character and have my friend make a near cyberzombie character, have the mage summon an ally spirit, inhabit the cyberzombie. have it kill the mage so the cyberzombie player takes control of the ally spirit and the mage player makes a new character. All before the game starts. Pass that by your GM and see if he still lets you attempt what you are asking to do.
Stop deliberately warping the rules to fill some powertrip of yours. Stop telling people that it is ok to do something when it is clearly not ok by RAW. At least state before you even start to explain yourself that it is not RAW and is GM houserule territory.
I do believe that under the Free Spirit rules, there's a quality that discusses the Free Spirit being a former Ally spirit.
QUOTE (darthmord @ Dec 22 2009, 08:11 AM)
I do believe that under the Free Spirit rules, there's a quality that discusses the Free Spirit being a former Ally spirit.
And yet PC Free Spirits are not allowed to have Inhabitation, yet Ally Spirits are...
QUOTE (Mikado Posted Yesterday, 11:46 PM )
7) I have read the section! Why don't you! Street Magic pg 100 Inhabitation
QUOTE (Street Magic, page 100)
During merging, the vessel's original spirit (if present) is consumed and for all intents and purposes that character is essentially lost (though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories).
Emphasis added. It's amazing how people can quote that part and still miss it.
QUOTE (Mikado Posted Yesterday, 11:46 PM )
Neraph is intentionally attempting to warp the nature of the rules. That is fine in his games and if you can slip it past your GM more power to you. But by RAW you can not do it.
By RAW everything is GM approval. Even basic characters. However, GM approval to bend or break rules-as-written creates a houserule.
By RAW everything is GM approval. Even basic characters. However, GM approval to bend or break rules-as-written creates a houserule.
I find it interesting that when a perfectly valid section of the rules is discovered, people will knee-jerkingly disallow it or call it something like this (warping the rules). Need I remind you that the GM deciding to have Inhabited characters not die, not be destroyed, and retain some sort of ability to make their decisions is also RAW? It is a rule, and it is written. I understand you do not like the applications, but that's your problem, not mine.
QUOTE (Mikado Posted Yesterday, 11:46 PM )
How about this Neraph. I make a mage character and have my friend make a near cyberzombie character, have the mage summon an ally spirit, inhabit the cyberzombie. have it kill the mage so the cyberzombie player takes control of the ally spirit and the mage player makes a new character. All before the game starts. Pass that by your GM and see if he still lets you attempt what you are asking to do.
As a GM myself, I am perfectly fine with this, except the emphasized part. If they decide to do this in-game, that's fine. Interesting things happen to the skills of the Street Sam, however; IE: he will probably not be able to use any of his weapons anymore, unless the conjurer decided to spend the extra karma to create an Ally Spirit who could use firearms as well.The thing you are evidentally not seeing is the extreme cost of Karma needed to get this effect. If someone is going to spend 100+ karma to be awsome, why should you tell them no?
QUOTE (Mikado Posted Yesterday, 11:46 PM )
Stop deliberately warping the rules to fill some powertrip of yours. Stop telling people that it is ok to do something when it is clearly not ok by RAW. At least state before you even start to explain yourself that it is not RAW and is GM houserule territory.
The thing is that it is completely RAW - you quoted the rule yourself. If you can't see that, I can't help you.
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