Hi people

I am going to start a new series of adventures for my group. My Goal is to start out the players as a "noob" to the streets and work their way up to pro shadowrunners.
If you have seen the movie Goodfellas. Its that sort of story that I want to create.

If anyone one has suggestions to this goal I can always use some support GMing especially in terms of character creation.

Thanks

Are your characters starting off middle or lower class? Or are you thinking about having them grow up in the barrens?

If the second, I recommend reading "Gang Leader for a Day" and "Off the Books" both by Sudhir Venkatesh.

I have always wanted to do that style of game, its never quite happened.

For a low-powered "noob" game, 300 BP is usually about right. Be very careful about what qualities you allow, as certain qualities can monopolize your time and energy as a GM, and this effect can be magnified in a low-powered game. Another very effective way to limit the power of your game is to lower the availability limit at character gen to about 6, but then you might need to make a few exceptions (like silencers, for example). Also your initial runs will need to be relatively simple, as your fledgling runners will be limited in terms of skills.

Do you have any specific ideas about what types of characters the group wants play or adventure frameworks?

For character creation I would recommend the following:

- 400BP
- No more than 1 Essence point in Cyberware, total.
- No Bioware
- No skill above 4
- No lifestyles above low
- No Magic attribute above 4
- No Edge attribute above 4
- No foci above rating 2
- At least one street level contact (including Barkeepers)

That should provide fairly fleshed out characters, ready to claw their way up the ranks.

I'd go weaker than others here.

200 BP

Attributes capped at 3(before racial). 1 Stat can go to 4.
No skills above 3
Magic/resonance capped at 2
Max 10BP in resources
Availability limit of 6.

A 3 stat/3 skill makes you professional in your skill so you really can have people who are in that range in there strong suit and IMO the game works better at this level.

Your average joe already has 160BP worth of attributes. A 200BP limit is simply not feasible.

First You (and your Group) have to decide if you want to Play LowPower(with fewer Building Points) or Lowstyle(in the Streets )
What You describe looks like Lowstyle and can easily be done with the Standard Rules. It's your Players that have to go Lowstyle.
Its no Use to cut/cripple the Characters by allowing only 300 (or 200 ) Points and then ,after a session or two, giving them heavy Weapons and heavy Armor, etc
But If the Players have competent Characters they're not in dire need of bigger Equipment
@Shinobi
with only 200 BP the Characters can't do shit /achieve anything if You Play by the Rules

with a lowstyle Dance
Medicineman

Depends on if you agree with knasser or not that average attributes should be 2 or the 1-3e idea that 3 is the average

Let's see what the rulebook thinks about that:



Or let's have a look at some Contacts:

Bartender: 140 BP
Blogger: 140 BP
Mechanic: 170 BP
Armorer: 140 BP
Club Owner: 180 BP
Corporate Manager: 140 BP
Corporate Secretary: 140 BP
Gambler: 150 BP
Janitor: 100 BP (considering that 100BP would be the allowed maximum for characters with a 200BP maximum, players would start out on the level of a janitor...)
Paramedic: 170 BP
Stripper: 160 BP
Taxi Driver: 120 BP

In other words, pretty much every Joe Average would wipe the floor with a runner made with 200BP total... And those are all non-combat, non-specialist NPCs. They are about as average as they get in SR.

Not trying to put words in his mouth (just part of his posted house rules) but I think he derives 2 based on the fact that in older editions average was 3 dice TOTAL. Even with combat pool you were looking at 5 dice (3 skill +1/2 of the average combat pool). Having attributes at 2 with skills at 3 would give you 5 dice again. However with the raise in the target number, 6 dice may be more statistically accurate.

A lot of how much fun you'll have is in what you mean by low powered. I ran a 3rd Edition Game in which the PC's made 90 build point PC's. When it's all said and done, by specializing you can still build some pretty damned powerful and effective PC's. This assume some team work on the part of the players, which isn't always a given.

What I'd start with is talking to your players. Get a feel for what they want, and expect from a low powered game. Is a hand gun going to be a big deal, or does everyone have one? Is magic a factor? Or is it like Nuclear Weapons?

As a GM how do you plan to control their access to things like money-which can pretty quickly stack up and allow the gun bunny to cyber up. Adepts can be real game breakers-be aware of that when making opposition. The IC thread for my low powered game can be found here. It can provide some insights if you're willing to take the time and read it. (Obviously we all have different constraints on our free time, so that may not be realistic.)

Just get everyone around a Table and spend the next 2-5 hours making the characters.
If they are all suposed to have "Grown Up" tegether they should be famialr wich each other.
Encourage Imput form each player on each Character.
With you there you can make sure that nothing gets caried away.
This may aslo give you some "Story Hooks" that develup during Caracter Creation.

Interestingly, the game I'm playing in grew out of my desire to make some "low-level" characters on a 300BP budget and then it sort've took over the campaign. The rules we used were:

300BP
-1 Level 4 Skill & 2 Level 3 Skills or 5 Level 3 Skills.
-Skill groups capped at 2
-Maximum availability of 8
-35 BP maximum spent on resources. 5k¥ per point.

We also used the free Charisma x 2 contact points and something ... uh ... very wrong but other players wanted it. You can break skill groups during character creation.

Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 1
Intuition 2
Logic 2
Willpower 2
Edge 2
Firearms (Group) 3
Close Combat (Group) 3
Pilot Ground Craft 2
Stealth (Group) 2
Influence (Group) 1
10,000 Nuyen for cyber and gear.(maybe some cyber eyes)
This is without any flaws to get more points or being particularly efficient with skills. Just taking unarmed combat or pistols for example would save points for other skills. He can get a success or two on tasks fairly reliably, I think that is solid for a low level campaign. Sure the cops will be a huge threat, but if you are a punk gang member a cop should be. Since your skills are combat oriented you should be able to easily handle the taxi driver and shop keepers. You can achieve plenty, you can't just routinely achieve the really lame blind fire, while deaf, being dragged by one leg by a speeding car shots that everyone seems to shoot for.

6-12 dice the system works well IMO, past that and it becomes a game of how many penalty mods can the GM throw on to make it a challenge.

Yeah, we all know what the rule book says. What tete is referring to is a lengthy debate that occurred around here back when the 4th edition came out. If I recall correctly, the idea was that even if 3 were the mean (average) attribute, the mode (most common) attribute would probably be 2. So if you grabbed 100 average shmucks off the street, most would have attributes of 2, a bunch would have 3s and 4s, and a handful would have 5s and 6s. Its a more realistic distribution, and the 4th edition system works better with lower DPs anyway. There are *numerous* threads on the topic if you want to read more.

However, I would agree with you that 200 BP seems a little too low...

I'd stress thinking in terms of limiting dice pools if you want to keep players relatively evenly powered, not just throwing in arbitrary caps on just things that contribute to dice pools, since such tactics often end up favoring the burly metas to a point that's frankly a bit laughable. One of the few things that keeps trolls relatively balanced, for example, is that as nice as their stat lines are, sinking BPs into nuyen and augmentations instead of raw attributes is often enough to make the less efficient metatypes worth a look thanks to the brute power of 'ware. In an environment where you cannot pursue those options, suddenly attributes and metatype costs are some of the only cost effective uses for bps, and not everyone is really interested in playing a goblinized character. In general, things'll come out a lot better if you just eyeball everything and work closely together on the sheets rather than set down arbitrary limits. The important thing is that nobody gets crazy, out of whack dicepools-- what sources they come from is a secondary concern, at best.

OK
Social Competence:
2 Dice for Interacting with the World thats a 33% chance of critical Glitch !!
Firefight
6D Vs Far Distance -3, bad Visibility -1, (lets assume I-Red or ...(Restlicht ?) Nightvision)
and your Enemy is either in cover or running
thats 2 Dice Vs your Enemies 5-7 Dice You won't hit Shit(crit Glitch !). even if you add Smartlink (which is ImO not Lowstyle) thats 4 vs 5 or 7 Dice .No "Shithitting" either

What you seem to forget is the multiple modifiers ingame
especially for Fights

6-12 dice the system works well IMO
not with all the negative Modifiers, than it Boils down to 2-3 Dice
If you "cut down" the Character abilities you also have to "cut down" the Rules
and thats a lot of Work for nothing (imO)

He who doesn't want to Dance for nothing
Medicineman

And he'd better stay well clear of any body of water. With a 2dices pool for anything ahtletic, he's in serious danger of drowning. And if he evers has to leave hastiily from somewhere with peoples shooting at him, he's not a sitting duck but close... He would also better not try to have any sort of look at his gear's innards. If it don't work, bring it to the shop.

Basically anything that doesn't fit directly into his narrow specialty can be forgotten

I honestly think you guys are kinda reaching here. It's not 2 dice for interacting with the world. It's 2 dice for trying to convince the world to do things it wouldn't otherwise be inclined to do without coaxing. That's a huge difference, and as long as you don't go around trying to sweet talk your way through things, glitches shouldn't be that big of a concern.

So yeah, sure, the character isn't a shadow runner yet. But that's sort of the point of the whole exercise here. Of course, the characters are likely to get killed, but that's kind of the way it goes when you're not a shadow runner and try to do violent crime for a living. The lack of Perception is actually what leaped out at me more than anything.


I still kinda hate the idea of just lowering a bunch of caps though. It exaggerates the effects of min-maxing, and like I said earlier, it overemphasizes metatype differences since attributes are more cost effective than skills. Further, humans end up actually having a hard time finding things to spend points on if you don't let them have much in the way of nuyen-- sure, you can branch out into non-specialty skills, but your dice pool will typically end up so pathetically small that you really shouldn't have even bothered. Frankly, I just toss bp costs more or less out the window and work with the players directly to get totals we can all live with.

I feel if you really want to go "low level" its best to use karma build. Maybe 400-500 karma. The fact that you have to pay a lot for something high will mitigate high scores by itself.

But it's not having something high that ruins it, actually. It's simply leaving it somewhat low or average and using the fact that those points don't count under attribute caps so that you can concentrate on building synergistic stats without crippling yourself physically. With lowered point totals and attribute caps it's frankly dang near impossible for a human not to have one or two really bad dump stats. Meanwhile, trolls and orks can use body and strength as "dump stats" and still be tougher than the average smoothie. That's nothing to sneeze at, particularly in a low powered game where your character is unlikely to be good enough at his job to avoid taking a few hard knocks.

For example, with just under 400 karma and the limitations suggested by Shinobi, you can get a troll that looks like this:

Attribs:
Body:5
Agility:4(5)
Reaction:3
Strength:5(6)
Charisma:2
Intuition:3
Logic:2
Willpower:2
Edge:2

Positive Qualities:
Adrenaline Surge
Martial Artist 1 (Wrestling, +1 Die For Subdual)

Negative Qualities:
Mild Addiction to Novacoke

Martial Arts Maneuvers:
Throw
Ground Fighting

'Ware:
Muscle Replacement 1

Skills:
Unarmed Combat 4 w/ Martial Artist Specialization
Pistols 4 w/ Semi-Automatic Specialization
Perception 2
Athletics Group 3
Stealth Group 3

Contacts:
Pawn Shop Owner, Loyalty 3, Connection 2

5k nuyen leftover for lifestyle and gear.

So, yeah, he's no face, but he's basically a pair of used Wired II from being a half-decent young Samurai. Now, of course, you can just put into place suggested minimum attribute spending rules to counter the worst excesses of this sort of thing, but it's another example of how at the end of the day hard and fast chargen rules don't really work all that hot if all you're really trying to do is dictate dice pool sizes and keep players at a relatively even level.

No, it is the guy playing the Elf with:


That becomes the problem
This not bad when the team are the same as him, but if the rest of the team has average stats and no speed upgrades everyone else might as well go for pizza when combat starts.
IMOHO if the GM wants a low power game he should restrict what they get. This is why I suggest building the characters as a group from the start.

I was just pointing out that some character concepts advantages are exaggerated when you just haphazardly lower a few caps. I'd rather see people just throw some of the rules into the wind and work as a group to make sheets and worry about how the points work out later. I don't honestly feel like the SR4 chargen system scales down all that well, which is why I basically encourage the same approach you seem to be taking. Just saying "Okay, no skills above 3 and only 10k nuyen," is basically the same thing as saying "No functional hackers," for example.

You are right, no perception is bad. Change close combat to unarmed combat and throw perception at 3 on there. And now he has 6 BP to spare, again without any flaws to boost points.

We did a 200 point campaign for a realy short time, the GM just stopped though we were all having fun and being successful. Though it was a gang level campaign so the opponents were much like an average joe.

Bod 4
Agil 1
Rea 2
STR 1
Chr 1
Int 1
log 3
will 3
edge 2
Magic 1

Spellcasting 2(manipulation spells)
ritual casting 1
Counterspelling 2
Conjuring 2
firearms 1
unarmed combat 1
gymnastics 1
arcana 1
chemistry 3(drugs)
Enchanting 3(alchemy)
assensing 1
pilot ground 1(bike-i could of done wheeled but it feels so cheesy)
perception 1

He had a spirit affinity man, and a spirit pact. A few spells like 5,000 in gear, and 3 low end contacts. I could of built him more effectively but he did the job of being a drug dealer of mundane and awakened drugs for a low rent gang. I think people are to used to having a huge amount of mods being thrown at them in every encounter in order to bring them back down to reality that a low end game isn't feasible. But if you jump the security at a low end place there should be virtually no mods. If the cops pull up and get cover behind there car its time for a low end team to GTFO. At the low end people should be running more often since any mods make it virtually impossible. But that is fairly realistic, usually when people grab cover in real life shoot outs go on for ever.

One thing that you are forgetting though, Medicineman, is that many of the negative modifiers can be compensated for... Though I do agree that 200 BP is a fairly low expenditure...

I do believe that 12 dice is a good dice pool though... it is very effective... Hell, even after almost 300 Karma, many of my dice pools are still in the 9-13 range (with my Perception at 15), and I am still pretty darn effective... but that is probably because I can negate a fair amount of penalty...

Keep the Faith (and keep on Dancing)

One thing that you are forgetting though, Medicineman, is that many of the negative modifiers can be compensated for... Though I do agree that 200 BP is a fairly low expenditure...
not at all.but to Compensate (f.E Darkness) means Technology like Smartgun or Cybereyes, but with only 200 Points They'd hardly have the Resources:100 for Attributes, 20-40 for Metarace or Magic/TM,50-60 for Skills( ) , some Connections (Disadvantages are than mandatory)
They'd be Lucky to have 5 Pts for Resources

Kovu Mufasa made a good Point.
Its not restrictions from the Gamemaster that gets a good Lowstyle campaign,but the willingness of the Players
but if you cut their Character abilities down, They'd hardly have a chance !
F.E Firefight :If ,after all Modifiers have been Calculated, and they only Roll 2 or 3 Dice, they will surely want a Laserpointer or Smartlink or better weapons and Upgrades,etc and thats contrary to the Intention of having a lowstyle Campaign

Keep the Faith (and keep on Dancing)
I Will

HougH!
Medicineman

That is true... Hadn't thought that far into the character limits of 200 points...

Keep the Faith

cyber is cheap as dirt. You can get eyes for 1-2BP, now if you want a smartgun or wired 1 you need at least availability 8 to be available. But wired 1 is what 11,000, my quickie build from before had 6 points to spare once i changed close combat to unarmed and picked up perception. That would be 30,000 in cyber which is more than plenty for a low end game if you allowed that much cash. And he still has room for 35 points in limitations to improve in other areas.

So you want to cut down the Chars by lowering their BP to 200 but you allow Smartlink and other enhancer to raise their Pool again ?
you're contradicting yourself !
and What is the Use of a Lowstyle Campaing if You add Hightechnology ?
So the Streetsam has a fightingpool of 6D + smartlink for 8 Dice total (minus Modifiers when the real fighting starts )
Wouldn't it be better for the Sam to have a pool of 7 or 8D but not including smartlink ?
The Chars are still capable and don't depend on Hightech ?

with an Independance Dance
Medicineman

I don't see any problem in having a character who's somewhat dependent on smartlinks in low powered games. We may think of smartlinks as "high technology" but by SR standards we're talking about tech that's existed for well over a decade and comes integrated on many popular weapons by default. Heck, it's frankly realistic to expect people to use such things as a crutch to some extent, when it comes right down to it. A character with 8 dice sans smartlink might actually a better fit for a standard SR4 game than a low powered one, since a pair of smartlinked shades and an Ares Predator costs under a grand, and thus it's a not at all unrealistic to expect a combat oriented characters to steal or even purchase such a rig while in play. 10 dice may be a sorry total for a samurai, but it's probably well in line with the Face and non-combat specialists are packing, and thus may actually be a bit higher than many people would shoot for in a "newbie runner" game.

Actually I suggest a availability of 6, which removes smartguns and wired reflexes. But if having low levels of cyber was important to someones street level campaign its easy enough to say avail 8 instead of 6. And given how cheap they are its easy enough to come up with the BP for them.

Me I'd rather the ganger start off with really low end cyber, like eyes with thermo and flare. For low end games I like someone getting his first piece of combat ware being an in game event. It is a big deal and I prefer big character changing events to happen in game. Combat ware is sort of a right of passage or a sign that you are moving into a bigger world of criminal activity. For normal shadowruners sure its part of there background, for punk gangers I prefer it happen as part of the campaign. Again given the costs even gangers should be able to pull the money together after a few jobs. But hey others might be happy with low end combat ware being in the background of the character and so avail 8 would work for them.

Availbility of 6 does not remove smartgun.

I have to fully agree. The smartgun system is not "high tech." The Ares Predator IV with an availibility of 4R comes standard with a built in smartgun system. The only heavy pistol more available is the Ruger. And Glasses with smartlink are only 4R as well.

Actually, at street level, that is what would be expected. I can easily see the sammie proudly wearing his smartlinked glasses and the gun to go with them as a point of pride. They may be the only pair in the neighbourhood, but thats why he is the sammie.

I actually see that as more flavourful and logical than thermovision and flare compensation.

sorry it removes smart gun cyber, which is what i thought we were discussing. You are right smartgun links outside of cybereyes are a lower availability, though with avail 6 you could have either low light or vision mag with it and that is it. Though you could have cyber eyes for the low light etc, and goggles/glasses for the smartgun.(how i wish earlier editions system of goggles being less effective at being a smartgun links was still around) If medicineman is refering to all smartguns I misunderstood him, but eh its +2 dice 8ish dice in speciifcally shooting does not break the low end feel IMO. there base will still be 6-7ish for most skills they focus on and some mods can get them past that.