What I'm wondering about, after perusing Unwired and Emergence;

Do Technomancers actually create anything of lasting value in the matrix? Sprites and threaded CFs are both rather impermanent, and even CFs are still very personal.

Could a TM build a Node, set up programs for it, maybe IC/Agents? Or are they really just sort of parasites of the matrix? Revelling in their superior hacking skills, but not really contributing anything?

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I know my techo bought a Nexi and a slew of commlinks and made a small network for himself. It wasn't Resonance based, but by the same token mages don't make places with their magic. There are metaplanes, but in that respect there are Resonance realms which only technos have access to.

So perhaps hackers should realize that they are only crawling on the surface of a much greater world that only Technomancers truly understand?

They can program using their TM Software skill, and play about with electronics using their TM Hardware skill. Sure, they experience all the disincentives to do that you would expect, but they can do it.

Whether any given TM is that kind of netizen is an entirely personal question.

Are you sure? I got the idea that basically TMs didn't make or use programs.. that Sprites and Complex Forms were all they had. I mean, if they can use programs that work independently from their magical abilities, then you could probably buy some of those from other technomancers..






But it seems Technomancers would have never had that world if the hackers hadn't made it...

There's nothing at all stopping a technomancer from writing a normal program. In fact, it strikes me that technomancers in general and e-scapists in particular are probably the best node and icon designers in the net. Who better to hire to build your system than the freaky guy who talks to computers?

Sure, there's no way a technomancer would sit around writing a program for his or herself, but doing so for other people for money makes perfect sense.

It's never stated that their Software and Hardware skills differ from normal except they can't be taught to people without a Resonance score. These skills fulfil all the same roles as the non-Techno versions when they're used by Technomancers. Technomancers may not need programs, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone with the Software skill can write programs.

The big question is whether they'd ever bother to do so, but that's a question for the individual. Some will probably write programs or design hardware for a living.

@Ascalaphus: to clarify, they can create regular programs, but they cannot use them with their technomancer skills or powers. a technomancer can write a browse program, but in order to operate it they would need a regular commlink (or other node) to run it in, and would have to use their regular computer skill (which many will not have). they can write an agent, which will have to run on a regular node; they could then issue commands to it as well, since no skill or program is required to do so. they can even subscribe to the agent. they just can't run it on their living node.

as has been said, the software skill lets them *write* programs. using those programs is something else altogether, and most technomancers don't have the skills to make use of many programs (note: some programs do not need any skills to be useful; agents. viruses, worms, malware, etc, and these programs *can* be useful to technomancers provided the technomancer has something else to load them into for storage and/or operation)

I'm not sure of that; SR4 p. 233 suggests that they don't write normal programs.





So could they create a program that a normal user could use, with their special TM-version of the skills? If they can, can they also use normal or TM-programs while hacking (and thus ignoring the need for CFs?)

I'd rather think that being able to make a program implies being able to use it. And that'd mostly mean that they have a special programming style and some gimmicks like threading.



It makes sense as fluff, but it's rather uncertain in the rules...



Well, programs don't cost karma, CFs do...

It is unbelievable that you can program something that you can't then use, but others can.



I'd say that TM-Software either doesn't allow you to write regular software at all, or that you can them at least use your TM-skills to run self-written regular software on another node. I can understand that it won't run on the Living Persona though, it makes sense that the LP uses a different "hardware" that can't process normal code.

Reread the quotes you used.





Does it state anywhere that they can't use normal programs with their versions of the skills? It states only that they cannot be taught to people without a Resonance score.

EDIT: "Don't" != "Can't"

@ascalaphus: what's not to understand? when you use an attack CF, the same outcome occurs as if you used an attack program. you used a different skill (technomancer cybercombat vs hacker cybercombat), but the outcome was the same. when you use an edit CF, the same outcome occurs as if you used an edit program. you used a different skill (technomancer computer or hacking vs hacker computer or hacking), but the outcome was the same. different version of the skill, same outcome.

so... you use the technomancer software skill to write something, and the hacker software skill to write something. just like above, the outcome will be the same. only the methods of accomplishing it are different, with the technomancer likely producing code that is a nightmare to decipher, while the hacker produces a standard-looking commercial product.

so why don't resonance skills work when it comes to using programs? because technomancers don't work the same way as hackers, they just generate the same results. and resonance 'tools' (which i suspect might be better described as "specialised subconscious knowledge dealing with how to manipulate the resonance/matrix in specific ways" rather than programs, but can't give any specific rules quote to that effect) are used in completely different ways than software-based hacking programs.

As you see, this is rather unclear, and you two believe different things.

Unwired yields some tantalizing comments:







It appears that the following is the case:

- There is actually no written reason TMs can't use programs; only they can't use their Living Persona to run them. If they want to work with a commlink they're fine.
- TMs can't teach TM-skills to non-TMs, and you need the TM-version to do the TM magic. Otherwise, they're identical.
- They can base software on an agent on a slaved node they've subscribed.

Suddenly another idea occurs to me; Living Personas can't run programs because the biological node can't do that. Likely because it doesn't have memory to store data and files and processes.

So what if you clustered it with a batch of high-end commlinks?

I'm not quite sure what your last point is intended to convey (perhaps you mean that they can use Agents as normal when commanding them - if so I agree), but I agree with the first two conclusions unconditionally.


Nobody knows, for pretty much the same reason that nobody knows what happens when you cluster a calculator and a commlink. The rules about different kinds of nodes and the rules about clustering had a falling out and no longer speak to each other.

Yeah, I meant that - I got the impression TMs weren't supposed to use programs and agents. Granted, it's not explicit, but there's this vibe running through the text.

I suppose in the end, CFs and threading are a lot more powerful, but software is cheap and good, so TMs with their eyes on world domination would probably use both.



Haha

Well, this is rather interesting, all in all. I guess technomancers are kinda cool after all. I began this topic to get some input, and I rather like the returns

Really, I was rather bugged by the way TMs seemed on the surface to be unable to do what they should be most about; being a creative force in the Matrix 2.0..

The way I see it, TMs should be some of the best node-sculptors and networkers around thanks to their intuitive understanding and hyper-real perception of the matrix.