Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Some street elements...
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Nyost Akasuke
So, I was looking through Street Magic and got to reading the Grimoire section. As I was reading, I scanned the various elemental effects they added as well as some spells. A few questions popped in my head, and since I plan on making my second SR character a magician of some type, I decided to run these questions by you, the good people of Dumpshock.

1. Blast Element: This element looks really fun, and I might make it a 'theme' for my mage. Question one is - A Blast-based '[Element] Wall' spell, how exactly would this operate? Does it constantly generate the 'Blast' effect in both (or all) directions, effectively creating massive winds? Or does it only use the 'Blast' effect when something comes in contact with it? If the latter is the case, is it save to assume that a Blast Wall would stop or even push bullets and other projectiles to move in accordance with the blast path?
1b. Can I use it in an attempt to fly, or juggle small metahumans? Just kidding

2. Blast Element involved again. The Firewater spell gave me the inspiration to make a similar dual-element spell invoking the Blast and Metal properties. Could this be considered similar to a shotgun blast or a blast of flechette ammunition (though Metal element is already considered as flechette ammunition in a way)? Would this spell be resisted with half Impact armor (like blast element?) or with full Impact armor (like metal element?) or is this simply something I decide when the spell is made (or the gamemaster)?

3. More Blast element, this time dual'd with Sound. My main concern with this combo is that Sound element causes nausea and deafening when a subject has taken more damage than his Willpower. Sound element causes Stun, while Blast deals Phys. damage. Would the physical damage boxes taken from the 'Blast' side of the combat spell contribute to the boxes required for Sound's secondary effect, or would this only concern Stun/Sound damage?

If any of the above questions can be answered with ''Gamemaster's decision'' or some similar answer, would you please add what you would do in that situation, concerning these spells/elements?

Thanks for the help. =) Still an SR'er in training and need all the assistance I can get. Everyone's been awesome to me.
Nyost Akasuke
60+ views and no one has a comment? Seriously?
What's wrong? x.X
WyldKnight
1. I would guess only when they touch because thats how it works with all the others.

2. Idk about this one but I would assume that the higher armor is used in this case full impact.

3. Still trying to figure it out heh, I've seen a lot of people say Lightning spells do both physical and stun so I would assume you would do the same with Sound/Blast.
Nyost Akasuke
Thanks. Even if you're not sure, that puts me in a much better position than I was before. I'm entirely clueless, xD So anything anyone can offer is like ... well, awesome.
AKWeaponsSpecialist
QUOTE (Nyost Akasuke @ Jan 1 2010, 02:45 PM) *
60+ views and no one has a comment? Seriously?
What's wrong? x.X

Perhaps I'm not the only one who saw this as similar to loading EX-EX, Gel, Flechette, and normal ammo into a gun and then firing a burst. It makes the universe explode because the game mechanics can't handle it. It's an individual GM decision, but I would personally take you aside and ask you to use different combinations, so I don't have to deal with the headache of coming up with a plausible use for that combination that isn't unbalanced and makes sense. Light+fire, Fire+smoke, water+acid, water+blast, these all make sense AND would be less difficult to combine than, say, blast+metal. Also, the Blast on Blast Wall wouldn't be in effect until one made contact with the wall; it'd only mess with bullets if that's in the [Element] Wall description. I hope I was helpful.

Just so you know, I make no claims to having system mastery. I'm rather new to the game as well, and just try to keep things simultaneously simple and entertaining.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Nyost Akasuke @ Jan 1 2010, 02:08 AM) *
So, I was looking through Street Magic and got to reading the Grimoire section. As I was reading, I scanned the various elemental effects they added as well as some spells. A few questions popped in my head, and since I plan on making my second SR character a magician of some type, I decided to run these questions by you, the good people of Dumpshock.

1. Blast Element: This element looks really fun, and I might make it a 'theme' for my mage. Question one is - A Blast-based '[Element] Wall' spell, how exactly would this operate? Does it constantly generate the 'Blast' effect in both (or all) directions, effectively creating massive winds? Or does it only use the 'Blast' effect when something comes in contact with it? If the latter is the case, is it save to assume that a Blast Wall would stop or even push bullets and other projectiles to move in accordance with the blast path?
1b. Can I use it in an attempt to fly, or juggle small metahumans? Just kidding
Only contact with the wall causes damage.

QUOTE
2. Blast Element involved again. The Firewater spell gave me the inspiration to make a similar dual-element spell invoking the Blast and Metal properties. Could this be considered similar to a shotgun blast or a blast of flechette ammunition (though Metal element is already considered as flechette ammunition in a way)? Would this spell be resisted with half Impact armor (like blast element?) or with full Impact armor (like metal element?) or is this simply something I decide when the spell is made (or the gamemaster)?
In making up the spell, make choices as to which of the contradicting aspects takes effect, and apply the appropriate modifiers to the Drain.

QUOTE
3. More Blast element, this time dual'd with Sound. My main concern with this combo is that Sound element causes nausea and deafening when a subject has taken more damage than his Willpower. Sound element causes Stun, while Blast deals Phys. damage. Would the physical damage boxes taken from the 'Blast' side of the combat spell contribute to the boxes required for Sound's secondary effect, or would this only concern Stun/Sound damage?
Using the Firewater example and the guideline above, only one set of damage boxes are done by this spell, even if it combines two effects. So, again, choose whether it is Stun or Physical, and adjust the Drain accordingly. This particular combination may almost be redundant, then.
Nyost Akasuke
@AKWeaponspecialist: I can understand these combinations being a little crazy, which is why I decided to bring it all here before I caused some GM to cry by presenting him with crazy spells. I didn't think Blast/Metal would be too insane of a combo though. The way I envisioned it was the Metal element (fragments of iron) accelerated by the Blast element, resulting in something similar to a shotgun round. I just wanted to know if that would be a 'plausible' effect, and if in essence I could create a 'Buckshot' spell that acts similar to a shotgun? Pertaining to [Element] Wall, what I'm most concerned with is the effect of the wall on projectiles. The spell description states that solid walls (of Ice, Metal, Earth, etc) have an Armor and Structure rating, and can be used to block incoming attacks. Insubstantial walls (Fire, smoke, light, etc) do not block incoming attacks. But if the Blast effect of a Blast Wall is indeed initiated upon contact, what does this mean?

Imagine, if you will, a bullet traveling towards the wall. The Blast 'element' is probably considered insubstantial, but the fluff in it's description visualizes it as a powerful shockwave or gust of wind both of which seem to me as 'insubstantial' compared to actual physical objects (earth, ice, etc.) So, when the bullet hits the wall, should it be treated as insubstantial (and let the bullet pass since it has no Armor and Structure rating?) or does the wall's effect somehow come in and affect the bullet in some way? In short, the damage of the wall isn't what concerns me, it's the capabilities of the spell in regards to being a 'Wall'.

@pbangarth: So they are indeed all things I choose at the creation of a spell? That helps a lot, thanks. So then a Blast/Sound spell could be either phys. or stun, with half the damage attributed to each element and with the possibility of knockdown and nausea (following guidelines similar to the layout of Firewater)? If so, I can totally make good with that idea.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Nyost Akasuke @ Jan 1 2010, 05:15 PM) *
Imagine, if you will, a bullet traveling towards the wall. The Blast 'element' is probably considered insubstantial, but the fluff in it's description visualizes it as a powerful shockwave or gust of wind both of which seem to me as 'insubstantial' compared to actual physical objects (earth, ice, etc.) So, when the bullet hits the wall, should it be treated as insubstantial (and let the bullet pass since it has no Armor and Structure rating?) or does the wall's effect somehow come in and affect the bullet in some way? In short, the damage of the wall isn't what concerns me, it's the capabilities of the spell in regards to being a 'Wall'.

@pbangarth: So they are indeed all things I choose at the creation of a spell? That helps a lot, thanks. So then a Blast/Sound spell could be either phys. or stun, with half the damage attributed to each element and with the possibility of knockdown and nausea (following guidelines similar to the layout of Firewater)? If so, I can totally make good with that idea.
The [Element] Wall spell could make an attempt to overcome the Object Resistance of the bullet in order to do something to it as it passes through. It might be stretching things, though, to use the [Element] Wall as if it were a Barrier spell as well.

Street Magic has a pretty straightforward system for creating spells. See what your GM thinks.
Ranger
The [Element] Wall spell description states, "Note that some elemental walls (fire, smoke, etc.) are not solid and will not block attacks, though they may inflict Visibility modifiers as determined by the gamemaster. Solid walls (earth, ice, etc.) have an Armor and Structure rating equal to the casterís Spellcasting hits" (SM, 173). Since a hurricane-like force (basically air moving at a high velocity) for the Blast element is not solid, the spell would not stop a projectile. Since the Blast element is also transparent, attackers would not suffer any Visibility modifiers, per se. However, I would rule that the projectiles suffer some kind of penalty due to the air disturbance. Exactly how much is up to your GM, but maybe -4 suffices, which puts it in line with the "Heavy Fog/Mist/Rain/Smoke" Visibility modifier.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Ranger @ Jan 1 2010, 11:01 PM) *
Exactly how much is up to your GM, but maybe -4 suffices, which puts it in line with the "Heavy Fog/Mist/Rain/Smoke" Visibility modifier.
Maybe a negative modifier equal to the damage from the Blast?
Nyost Akasuke
Either of those options is tempting enough to take up Blast Wall as a spell, and I greatly appreciate the input. ^-^ I'm leaning towards the Wall's 'disturbance' being equivalent to the damage value of the wall, but that's only because I think that the amount of Force put into the wall should directly affect it's disruptive capabilities (If the GM even rules this as a possibility, of course.)

If I choose to incorporate the Blast Wall spell into my character, should I add this possible effect somewhere in it's description?

Ranger
If you're going to have the penalty be variable, then I suggest a penalty equal to the caster's hits instead of the DV, to follow the same rule mechanic as determining the Armor and Structure rating that a solid wall created by the [Element] Wall spell would have.

Yes, I would add that house rule--it's technically a house rule, afterall--to your character sheet somewhere, or else I'm sure everyone in your gaming group will forget about it. smile.gif
Nyost Akasuke
Hits? Alright. I was writing it down and I decided on the penalty being half the Force of the spell (round down).

But now that you mention hits... I might have to try that instead. This is what I have so far. A lot of it is just [Element] Wall copied, but eh..

[ Spoiler ]


I hope that last part is worded correctly.
Ranger
QUOTE (Nyost Akasuke @ Jan 1 2010, 11:36 PM) *
With GM's Approval: Any firearms/bullets, projectile weapons, or thrown weapons that must pass through the Blast Wall incur a negative Dice Pool modifier equal to the half the Force of the spell (round down)[Or equal to the caster's Spellcasting hits] when determining Ranged Combat.


Remove "firearms" from your sentence, since that sounds like the attacker is throwing his firearm through the wall. wink.gif

How about the following rewording:

"With GM's Approval: Any ranged attack that must pass through the Blast Wall incurs a negative Dice Pool modifier equal to the half the Force of the spell (round down)[Or equal to the caster's Spellcasting hits]."

Shorter sentence, and generically includes all ranged attacks.
Nyost Akasuke
Awesome. It works. Thanks.
:3 Now, to find an online GM willing to work with a young newbie like me with crazy spell-slingin' Blast Mages and Lizardman Street Hackers.

Woo!

Thanks for the help everyone. I think in a short amount of time I might actually get the hang of all these rules and dice and such.
RedeemerofOgar
@Ranger: Not "any ranged attack" but rather "any projectile attack." There is no strong reason that lasers or powerbolts would be affected by such a wall.
Ranger
QUOTE (RedeemerofOgar @ Jan 5 2010, 10:43 PM) *
@Ranger: Not "any ranged attack" but rather "any projectile attack." There is no strong reason that lasers or powerbolts would be affected by such a wall.


True about lasers. Powerbolts don't make ranged attack tests, so they aren't affected. smile.gif
Apathy
I might make non-firearm projectiles (arrows, bolts, spears, tossed dwarves) more susceptible to negative modifiers than bullets. Could easily see them getting modifier equal to force instead of half force. Thoughts?
Tyro
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jan 6 2010, 04:55 PM) *
I might make non-firearm projectiles (arrows, bolts, spears, tossed dwarves) more susceptible to negative modifiers than bullets. Could easily see them getting modifier equal to force instead of half force. Thoughts?

That sounds reasonable. LOL @ dwarf toss.
Karoline
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jan 6 2010, 06:55 PM) *
I might make non-firearm projectiles (arrows, bolts, spears, tossed dwarves) more susceptible to negative modifiers than bullets. Could easily see them getting modifier equal to force instead of half force. Thoughts?


While the arrow/bolt/dwarf may be moving slower than the bullet, it also has way more mass, and thus is much harder to redirect. I figure if anything the blast is going to affect the bullet more than an arrow, and thus you should just KISS and give the same modifier to all projectile type attacks. Particularly heavy objects (And dwarves) should likely be affected less.
Apathy
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 7 2010, 01:41 AM) *
While the arrow/bolt/dwarf may be moving slower than the bullet, it also has way more mass, and thus is much harder to redirect. I figure if anything the blast is going to affect the bullet more than an arrow, and thus you should just KISS and give the same modifier to all projectile type attacks. Particularly heavy objects (And dwarves) should likely be affected less.

It's not mass but density matters. A dwarf has more mass than a bullet, but also a much larger surface area for the blast to exert against. The velocity difference is additional icing on the cake, because it means less time exposed to the blast forces before it reaches the target.

Still, you might be right that it's adding needless complexity.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012