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LivingOxymoron
Has anyone ever run a religious Character, or even one who just integrated certain religious traditions into their personality? Not a stereotype, or an over the top cinematic one, or what you 'thought' they would be like, but something that you actually did some research and/or thinking to round out your game experience?

I'm just curious as to what other people have done.

I'm thinking (next time I actually get a chance to play), of playing an observant Jew or Muslim and trying to reconcile a runner's lifestyle and obligations with an honest attempt at observing the traditions of his religion.
zeborazor
I'm currently running a Eastern Orthodox Priest. Though I have not gone over the top in following his rules, otherwise making the game near unplayable. He turns a blind eye to his friends when they insist on things getting dirty, but usually attempt to coerice them into doing what he considers the correct and moral path. Control Actions was once used to hold a vicious Street Sam at bay while the unarmed gangers ran for their life. But he tries not to influence things so directly, taking away free will and all that.
Godwyn
A guy in our group is running a minister/priest/something like that. It is also the basis for his magical tradition. The Church is also a reliable source of work for us through him, and unlikely to do the standard Johnson double-cross. Although the downside is our pay often borders on charity work. . . which is why my character has run up a debt of about 70,000 nuyen.gif to the Russian mob.
Glyph
Most of my characters have some kind of religious leanings, even if it is "muddled agnosticism," but while it influences them, I have never been fond of people who wear their religion on their sleeves, so I don't make characters where their religion is their big, defining characteristic. And honestly, a strongly religious character would have a hard time functioning in a lot of campaigns. It depends - Shadowrun is a mix of noir fatalism and "fight the system" idealism, so a strongly religious character could function as a part of a group leaning towards the latter. In other words, groups that would shut down a polluting factory in the barrens, rather than groups that would burn down a BTL treatment center because the Yaks think it's cutting into their profits too much.
Karoline
I have to agree with Glyph (I do that alot it seems like) that in general it is going to be hard to pair a religion with working in the shadows. Now some of the... I guess less religious and more spiritual things could work quite well (Like maybe Buddhism. Don't really know much, but it might work). But a truly devout Christian would have alot of trouble justifying a run because if nothing else there is that whole 'thou shall not kill' thing, and lots of runs have a tendency to turn violent.

Perhaps some sort of crusader type could work, but the problem is that most runs aren't going to be of any particular interest religion wise. I could maybe see someone who runs on a sort of 'well, I'm damned, but I'm going to drag as much evil into hell with me as I can'. Along the lines of Scar from FMA. Basically in their minds the corps are evil and so doing damage to them in any way is a good thing. Perhaps good enough to absolve a person of all the killing they did, or maybe they figure they've already done something that they can't be redeemed for, so they'll take advantage of that to bring evil down outside the 'laws' of their religion.

For anyone who has read the Trilogy "His Dark Materials" (Starts with the Golden Compass) there is an interesting idea presented (No idea if it is based in fact at all) of a clergyman who has spent his entire life atoning for a murder he hasn't committed yet, so that when he commits it, he'll still be allowed to go to heaven (Or maybe just stay out of hell, don't remember exactly). Another sort of possibility.

Still, I'm sure there are plenty of other ways you could go about it, because even though basically every religion includes stuff about peace and non-violence and not killing and such, basically all have justified plenty of killings. (Crusades, Inquisition, Jihad, Witch Burnings, blah blah blah)
Godwyn
Then again, there are plenty of proper Shadowrun organizations/religions/beliefs that run the shadows quite well. Shamans and Terra First anyone?

pbangarth
I have a Qabbalistic Tradition mage who is very in tune with the mythology and mysticism of his tradition. The spirits who possess him are continually reminding him of the path off of which he has stepped in order to enter the shadows.
LivingOxymoron
I guess I'm not really talking about a Minister/Rabbi/Imam/Monk/Priest, etc... I'm talking about a regular (or not so regular) lay adherent to a particular religion who's "job" happens to be running.

Like a Jew who does as much as possible to not run on Friday nights and Saturdays.

Or a Muslim who contributes 2.5% of all his run income to charity and prefers to work at nights (so he doesn't have to miss a prayer time).

Or a Catholic who searched and searched for a priest he could trust with his confessions.

Or a Hindu that treats running as a religious lesson since this is his dharma.

Stuff like that.
pbangarth
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jan 2 2010, 11:51 PM) *
I guess I'm not really talking about a Minister/Rabbi/Imam/Monk/Priest, etc... I'm talking about a regular (or not so regular) lay adherent to a particular religion who's "job" happens to be running.
Well, that's what I'm trying to do with my guy. His religious beliefs are filtering all his experiences and he is continually having to compromise and justify his behaviour within himself. I see him risking a slippery slope in order to feed a need for ... adventure ... excitement ... one-upmanship on a relative ... prestige ... escape from nerdiness....
Cardul
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jan 3 2010, 02:51 AM) *
Or a Hindu that treats running as a religious lesson since this is his dharma.

Stuff like that.



LONG time since I played that character....
Shivist Kshatriya Physical Adept...complete with Tulwar weapon focus.
I think I freaked the rest o the team of a few times, but..it has been so
long, I cannot remember much about how I played the character..
'Sconnie
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jan 3 2010, 07:51 AM) *
Like a Jew who does as much as possible to not run on Friday nights and Saturdays.


I worked up a Qabbalistic adept based on Walter Sobchak from The Big Lebowski who took Shomer Shabbos as a Geas.
Neraph
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 3 2010, 12:15 AM) *
But a truly devout Christian would have alot of trouble justifying a run because if nothing else there is that whole 'thou shall not kill' thing, and lots of runs have a tendency to turn violent.

To be perfectly fair:
1) It's "Thou Shalt Not Murder." The word used in Hewbrew is raw-tsahk', which means
QUOTE (Strong)
properly, to dash to pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

2) The Israelites are still under this Commandment themselves. It's in the Torah. The Old Testament is just the Torah, the Chronicles, the books of the Judges, the books of the Kings, the books of the Prophets, and a couple of other texts the Israelites still use (and technically it's Israelites - the Jews are Israelites specifically from the tribe of Judah. There are 11 other tribes too).

You could easily play a fundamentalist/extremist (depending if you're correct/politically correct) Muslim, any number of naturalistic faiths warring against the 'corps (not neccessarily associated with Terra! First or other super-Green movements), or a Crusader-styled guy following the Zoroastrian (spelling?) faith. Or, conversely, one of the darker paths like a Black Mage, an "evil" practitioner of the Zoroastrian tradition, a maho-tsukai, or something along those lines.

Also, if you were to play a Free Spirit character from Christian Theurgy/Zoroastrian, you could play him as an avenging angel who isn't exactly breaking the 6th Commandment, as it was A) given to humans, B) you're acting under God's orders, or C) you're actually distributing punishment, as no-one is without sin and the punishment for sin is death (you'd be "justified" by "executing" them for their sins, not actually murdering them).

*braces for flame-bath*
zeborazor
Yeah, you could be a Christian who has "visions" from God telling him to judge humanity etc.
pbangarth
Or you could just define a group as not human, and then killing them is not murder. Lots of precedent for that one.
Glyph
QUOTE (LivingOxymoron @ Jan 2 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Not a stereotype, or an over the top cinematic one, or what you 'thought' they would be like, but something that you actually did some research and/or thinking to round out your game experience?

Bringing it back to the original topic - I think once you get to the "My faith tells me to kill these people" point, you are getting to the stereotype/over the top type of character. To be honest, that type of religious character (the unhinged crusader type) is pretty trite and played out by now. Someone who actually has some moral qualms about some of the things they do as a runner is a much more interesting type of character to play. The noir atmosphere that is part of cyberpunk is pointless if the character doesn't have any ideals that he is tempted to compromise.
AKWeaponsSpecialist
Actually, I'm getting ready to play an ork theurgist next game (swapping with the other GM). He's primarily defensive, and he obeys "Thou Shalt Not Murder" (which when you recognize it as 'murder' instead of 'kill' it makes Deuteronomy make FAR more sense), he just stunbolts his enemies, except feral HMHVV. Multicast powerbolts to the face for ferals. He is a moral runner, trying to guide the amoral assassin away from her ways with subtlety. In case you're interested, he's a mystic adept with unarmed 3, clubs 1(staff), Combat Sense II, Motion Sense, Magic Sense, Heal, Deflection, Ignite (for church candles, but can be put to other uses), Stunbolt, and Powerbolt. He's primarily defensive, and serves ad majorem Dei gloriam, inque hominum salutem (For the greater glory of God, and the salvation of humanity). This should be interesting. Anyway, if this isn't the kind of thing you were looking for, mea culpa.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 3 2010, 02:00 AM) *
Most of my characters have some kind of religious leanings, even if it is "muddled agnosticism," but while it influences them, I have never been fond of people who wear their religion on their sleeves, so I don't make characters where their religion is their big, defining characteristic. And honestly, a strongly religious character would have a hard time functioning in a lot of campaigns.


Yeah, I think that shadow runners, when taken as a group, would tend to be the sort of people that keep religion on the periphery of their lives-- the easiest way to reconcile their actions with their beliefs is to simply not actively think about the conflict very often to begin with. After all, many criminals believe in an Abrahamic god, but unless they're pretty masochistic, they're going to spend more time doing what they do and less time praying for forgiveness afterwards-- the cognitive dissonance that would result simply makes a bit of hypocrisy the path of least resistance. Remember, people generally don't go out of their way to seek internal conflict when it's so easily avoided with a dollop of denial and some instant gratification. Basically, just keep in mind that religion can be a fundamental part of someone's world view without necessarily being a central part of how they live their every day lives. Faith dies hard, but pushing it out of the foreground is pretty easy.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 5 2010, 12:20 AM) *
Someone who actually has some moral qualms about some of the things they do as a runner is a much more interesting type of character to play. The noir atmosphere that is part of cyberpunk is pointless if the character doesn't have any ideals that he is tempted to compromise.
This is exactly the situation for the one religious character I do play. Dancing on the edge of a slippery slope is a delicious exercise.
tete
In the long time SR2 group I was in we had a character who was catholic. He was the demolitionist and former construction worker. He went to confession on occasion and he wasn't a runner by choice he had been forced to keep a low profile by pissing off the mafia. He always insisted no one get killed in the explosions, he later became a medic and started his own doc wagon competitor. Last I heard he was still running his company. He also refused cybernetics or bioware (god gave him what he needed) for the most part (he did reluctantly get a datajack and some other small things) and he was mundane. In that group less than 1/2 of us we superhuman in anyway (street sam, shaman, phys adept). The rest of us (demolitionist, decker, face, sneak) had 5 or more essence and were mundane.
Celt IMC
I played a muslim character. He was a troll and as part of his background he had tried to go on hajj. Due to racism, he only got as far as the area formerly know as Libya and signed up in the Desert Wars, which is where he learned the skill set to apply as a shadowrunner character. smile.gif I lifted the street name Half Hajj from Effinger's When Gravity Fails.

In play I gradually increased his charisma through Charisma stat, Ettiquette skill and bioware. Eventually in a downtime gap in play, I had him complete his hajj, though the street name stuck.
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Celt IMC @ Jan 5 2010, 12:43 PM) *
I played a muslim character. He was a troll and as part of his background he had tried to go on hajj. Due to racism, he only got as far as the area formerly know as Libya and signed up in the Desert Wars, which is where he learned the skill set to apply as a shadowrunner character. smile.gif I lifted the street name Half Hajj from Effinger's When Gravity Fails.

In play I gradually increased his charisma through Charisma stat, Ettiquette skill and bioware. Eventually in a downtime gap in play, I had him complete his hajj, though the street name stuck.



Very nice, honestly I have... less than healthy respect for Islam thanks to my own experiences (Hey, I soldiered in that particular region, I try to be open minded but there are only so many times a particular group can send you a bullet "express mail" before you start forming an opinion), I did play a pagan that was very carefull about observing the correct holy days according to his specific tradition. Funny thing was he was a sammy. No one ever suspects the guy spouting off about Freya to be packing a cyber shotgun!
AKWeaponsSpecialist
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Jan 5 2010, 02:29 PM) *
Very nice, honestly I have... less than healthy respect for Islam thanks to my own experiences (Hey, I soldiered in that particular region, I try to be open minded but there are only so many times a particular group can send you a bullet "express mail" before you start forming an opinion), I did play a pagan that was very carefull about observing the correct holy days according to his specific tradition. Funny thing was he was a sammy. No one ever suspects the guy spouting off about Freya to be packing a cyber shotgun!

Unless they've played Too Human biggrin.gif
Tyro
Zoroastrianism works very well for a strongly religious type without getting trite. It teaches that everyone in the world is engaged in a sort of shadow war of order vs. chaos, and that everyone takes part in some way - some people are just more aware of the war than others. I built a Zoroastrian character once, the Behdin Adel - Behdin is a title meaning someone who has been formally inducted into the religion; it translates to "follower of Daena", one translation of which is "good religion". Adel (it means "Righteous" in ancient Persian) is part of a radical Zoroastrian sect which engages in acts of terrorism for the greater good. It isn't about smiting the infidels - it's about punishing evil people for their acts. Much more room for character development.
Cardul
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Jan 5 2010, 07:29 PM) *
Funny thing was he was a sammy. No one ever suspects the guy spouting off about Freya to be packing a cyber shotgun!


I would...Just because she gets half the Honoured Dead for bed partners does not mean that she is not still a warrior goddess like
all the Aesir.
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 7 2010, 12:05 PM) *
I would...Just because she gets half the Honoured Dead for bed partners does not mean that she is not still a warrior goddess like
all the Aesir.


Why do you think he liked her so much?
DamienKnight
Priests can be great runners, so long as they have a skewed view on the church's teachings.

A first time player in my game played an adept priest. He is a big anime fan and loosely based it on the concept of some priest vampire killer guy. His character was from a super secret group dedicated to killing infected, unofficially supported by certain cardinals in the Vattican. He played the char as a real Bigot, who relentlessly pursued anyone he even mildy suspected of being infected.

The group included a vampire and a Loup Garou. The wolfboy concealed his body, just letting the claws out in combat. Tried to convince the Priest that he was just a phys ad whose killing hands manifested in a strange way. The priest was distracted by all the Ghouls I threw at them on the first run, but started stalking the Loup Garou after the run. The vampire character started spying on them both and selling information on each one to the other. The vampire kept the Priest so keyed up about the Loup Garou, he never noticed the vampire for what he was.

Eventually the Priest tried to kill the Loup Garou right after a run. The Loup Garou escaped, then went to the vampire for help. The vampire character hired an assassin, using the Loup Garou's resources, and paid him to sneak into the church where the Priest stayed and infect him with the Ghoul strain of the virus.

The priest never realized what had happened. He became sick, and eventually changed... forced to flee the church before he ate the parishioners. Disconnected from his organization (he wasnt about to go tell a bunch of zealot infected-slayers that he had become a ghoul) he decided to hide out in the barrens, starving himself. He had a crisis of faith, but decided to just let himself die rather than take the chance of pissing off God. At the height of hunger and self pity, some jerk tried to mug him. He lost himself to his ghoul hunger and killed and ate the guy. After feeling remorse for what he did, he had an epiphany. He was turned to a ghoul by God himself, so that he could start a ministry among the infected!

The player retired the character, who built a church in the Pullyaup barrens dedicated to teaching infected how they might achieve salvation by only eating the dead or by killing the most unsavable wretches among the lost.
Tyro
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jan 7 2010, 10:22 AM) *
Priests can be great runners, so long as they have a skewed view on the church's teachings.

A first time player in my game played an adept priest. He is a big anime fan and loosely based it on the concept of some priest vampire killer guy. His character was from a super secret group dedicated to killing infected, unofficially supported by certain cardinals in the Vattican. He played the char as a real Bigot, who relentlessly pursued anyone he even mildy suspected of being infected.

The group included a vampire and a Loup Garou. The wolfboy concealed his body, just letting the claws out in combat. Tried to convince the Priest that he was just a phys ad whose killing hands manifested in a strange way. The priest was distracted by all the Ghouls I threw at them on the first run, but started stalking the Loup Garou after the run. The vampire character started spying on them both and selling information on each one to the other. The vampire kept the Priest so keyed up about the Loup Garou, he never noticed the vampire for what he was.

Eventually the Priest tried to kill the Loup Garou right after a run. The Loup Garou escaped, then went to the vampire for help. The vampire character hired an assassin, using the Loup Garou's resources, and paid him to sneak into the church where the Priest stayed and infect him with the Ghoul strain of the virus.

The priest never realized what had happened. He became sick, and eventually changed... forced to flee the church before he ate the parishioners. Disconnected from his organization (he wasnt about to go tell a bunch of zealot infected-slayers that he had become a ghoul) he decided to hide out in the barrens, starving himself. He had a crisis of faith, but decided to just let himself die rather than take the chance of pissing off God. At the height of hunger and self pity, some jerk tried to mug him. He lost himself to his ghoul hunger and killed and ate the guy. After feeling remorse for what he did, he had an epiphany. He was turned to a ghoul by God himself, so that he could start a ministry among the infected!

The player retired the character, who built a church in the Pullyaup barrens dedicated to teaching infected how they might achieve salvation by only eating the dead or by killing the most unsavable wretches among the lost.

Poor guy... Awesome stories rarely make for happy people.

I wouldn't say you have to have a skewed view of your church's teachings. Plenty of religions (Asatru comes to mind) work perfectly well with certain running styles, no modification required.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
I would...Just because she gets half the Honoured Dead for bed partners does not mean that she is not still a warrior goddess like
all the Aesir.

IIRC, Freya (and her brother, Frey/Freyr) is one of the Vanir, not the Aesir.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jan 8 2010, 09:56 AM) *
IIRC, Freya (and her brother, Frey/Freyr) is one of the Vanir, not the Aesir.


Yes, but they are on a sort of permanent loan to the Aesir.
Eryk the Red
I played a religious character for a bit. He was cool, but a little too messed up for my tastes.

He was an Orthodox Jew (not Chasidic) hitman. He had some magic, but I kind of regretted doing that. I made him a mage just because the group needed a mage. The important bit is that he was a hitman, a shooter, and he took his faith very seriously. That required that he make some difficult justifications in his head. It's not as though he killed for self-defense, or for a cause. He killed for money. So he had a rule for his jobs: he would never kill a Jew. He would not take jobs targetting Jews, and if he found out the target was Jewish, he'd walk away. He made this clear to employers, so there would be no surprises. In his mind, non-Jews, while being no less human, were not afforded the same moral protections as Jews.

He was part of a Jewish crime ring prior to the campaign, which got taken out, resulting in his wife's arrest. His motivation for running is to raise the money to find her and organize a run to free her. He lives in a tiny filthy apartment, and has a growing addiction to betameth.

He was a neat character to play, but if I continued to play him, he almost definitely would have died before he ever found his wife. He was desperate and took a lot of risks (which payed off in the handful of runs I played him in).
tete
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jan 7 2010, 05:22 PM) *
loosely based it on the concept of some priest vampire killer guy.


I can't stop thinking "I kick arse for the Lord"... I know it was Zombies but its still and priest undead killer wink.gif
Celt IMC
QUOTE (tete @ Jan 8 2010, 12:22 PM) *
I can't stop thinking "I kick arse for the Lord"... I know it was Zombies but its still and priest undead killer wink.gif


Seth: So what are you, Jacob? A faithless preacher? Or a mean motherfraggin' servant of God?
Jacob: I'm a mean, mhm mhm servant of God.
Snow_Fox
The problem with the question is ow observant do you mean? For example Reform, Conservative and Hassidik (sp?) Jews have different definitions of "kosher" and some very religous jewish people have no problem with pork, cheeseburgers and lobster. Most of the billion or so Muslims in the world do not believe in killing themselves for Allah but there are quite a few head cases who feel they are devout that way. Many Arabs, who are Muslims, want nothing (pleasant) to do with Jews, but that is more geo-political than anything in holy scriptures.

So how observant do you mean? In theory a wiccan or any monotheist would ever take a life (thou shall not kill, an it harm none etc) A Jew who won't run after sundown on friday until dusk Saturday? A Christian who won't run on Sunday? A Muslim who will stop to prey 5 times a day?

The question should be answered.
Neraph
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jan 9 2010, 10:43 AM) *
A Muslim who will stop to prey 5 times a day?

Hehe, a hunting Muslim? (pray, not prey)
Tyro
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jan 9 2010, 09:43 AM) *
The problem with the question is ow observant do you mean? For example Reform, Conservative and Hassidik (sp?) Jews have different definitions of "kosher" and some very religous jewish people have no problem with pork, cheeseburgers and lobster. Most of the billion or so Muslims in the world do not believe in killing themselves for Allah but there are quite a few head cases who feel they are devout that way. Many Arabs, who are Muslims, want nothing (pleasant) to do with Jews, but that is more geo-political than anything in holy scriptures.

So how observant do you mean? In theory a wiccan or any monotheist would ever take a life (thou shall not kill, an it harm none etc) A Jew who won't run after sundown on friday until dusk Saturday? A Christian who won't run on Sunday? A Muslim who will stop to prey 5 times a day?

The question should be answered.

As was mentioned earlier by another poster, it's thou shalt not murder.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 9 2010, 04:29 PM) *
As was mentioned earlier by another poster, it's thou shalt not murder.
I don't know, there are a lot of interpretations that say 'kill'. See for example, THIS. What the original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek may be is irrelevant to the beliefs and actions of one who works according to the interpretation of his particular sect.
Tyro
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 9 2010, 05:56 PM) *
I don't know, there are a lot of interpretations that say 'kill'. See for example, THIS. What the original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek may be is irrelevant to the beliefs and actions of one who works according to the interpretation of his particular sect.

The original Bible was supposedly written with divine inspiration/written by God through the bodies of men/etc. Most modern translations use murder, not kill, as they are translated from the oldest verifiable copies.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 9 2010, 06:00 PM) *
The original Bible was supposedly written with divine inspiration/written by God through the bodies of men/etc. Most modern translations use murder, not kill, as they are translated from the oldest verifiable copies.
The King James version is still a powerful and widely used version. Doesn't matter what more modern versions say if this is the one your sect uses.
Karoline
I love the word sect![/random]

I've always heard it as kill. Many people have always heard it as kill. Regardless of what something actually is people will act on what they believe. If people believe that there is a God, then they will act as though there is a God, regardless of if there actually is a God. If people believe the bible says "Thou Shall not streak" then they will quote it and spread that belief like a plague (Plenty of internet rumors happen like this. Someone says that something is true and everyone believes them, and if they don't then 5 of their friends will and will convince them of it). If people believe the bible says "Thou Shall not Kill." then that is what they will act under, the idea that that is what the bible says, regardless of what the original bible might say, or what some new bible might say.

Incidentally, what is the difference between Kill and Murder for the sake of a character like this beyond that Kill extends to non-humans and Murder does not?
Glyph
Generally, murder means deliberately killing someone in cold blood (i.e. wetwork), while killing includes things like fighting in a war, self-defense, etc.

Basically, the difference between the 5 point pacifist negative quality and the 10 point pacifist negative quality.
Tyro
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 9 2010, 09:10 PM) *
Generally, murder means deliberately killing someone in cold blood (i.e. wetwork), while killing includes things like fighting in a war, self-defense, etc.

Basically, the difference between the 5 point pacifist negative quality and the 10 point pacifist negative quality.

Couldn't have put it better myself ^_^
Karoline
I have a feeling that there would be alot of moral argument over a runner who is breaking into a facility and being shot at by the guards could really call him killing the guards 'self-defense' and not murder. I mean in the real world if you rob a bank and then kill a cop because he was shooting at you, it is 1st degree murder, not self-defense.

Regardless, yeah, I see the difference between kill and murder here. I wasn't thinking of it in legal terms.
Tyro
I see murder (from a moral or ethical perspective) as killing without justification. (Remember, morals are personal values, while ethics are societal.) If killing for personal profit is moral for you, I would not consider your doing so murder from your moral perspective. You'd still have to deal with other people's morals and local culture (ethics), however.
Karoline
QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 10 2010, 03:01 PM) *
I see murder (from a moral or ethical perspective) as killing with justification. (Remember, morals are personal values, while ethics are societal.)


You mean killing without justification?
Tyro
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 10 2010, 01:13 PM) *
You mean killing without justification?

Yes, that's what I meant. I just got up; thank you for the heads up. Edited.
Snow_Fox
All of which bounces around my question. You are saying that any Christian who shoots someone doesn't count as Christian. there are a whole bunch of people in the US military right now who'd probably not agree with you. Also to go back to my post, then the extreme case of Muslim's -the wack jobs not normal folks_ would actually be blessed to kill infidels.
LivingOxymoron
I'm with you on this one.

Obviously, if a person's faith (or their connection to the secular community and traditions of their faith) are strong enough, consciously or unconsciously, they will more than likely try to compensate the rigors of their life with other forms of observance.

Take Christianity as an example (since you pointed it out). Running is a dangerous profession... runners kill people. Christians, Jews, and Muslims (who all follow the 10 commandments) aren't "out of the club" if they kill someone... quite to the contrary, these and other religions all provide for ways to atone for one's actions. Sometimes it could be taking actions to mitigate the harm one causes. Sometimes, one's beliefs allow one to concoct elaborate justifications for ones actions. After all, religions are not simply the words contained in a single book... they are the sum total of the beliefs, interpretations, and cultures that evolve over the years.

From my own personal experience, when I was in the military, if I missed a particular holiday observance I wasn't automatically not a Jew anymore. When I missed the Yom Kippur fast one year due to operational responsibility, I simply fasted the next time I got the chance. Same thing with a friend of mine who was Muslim. He was on an exercise during part of Ramadan. He simply made up the days he missed after the exercise was over.

QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jan 10 2010, 06:47 PM) *
All of which bounces around my question. You are saying that any Christian who shoots someone doesn't count as Christian. there are a whole bunch of people in the US military right now who'd probably not agree with you. Also to go back to my post, then the extreme case of Muslim's -the wack jobs not normal folks_ would actually be blessed to kill infidels.

MatrixJargon
We've had varying levels of religion in our campaigns throughout the ages. I had made one character (whom I ended up never using) that went by the street name "Paladin" and was heavily religious. If you want to play a fully religious character, be prepared to play either a bit of a dark hypocrite, or like the priest from Firefly/Serenity. I also, at one time, played a character who refused to kill anybody. He was the team's moral voice, and it caused a lot of interesting in-confrontations. "If you do any of that goody two shoes don't let me shoot anybody shit this run I'm going to kill you" was a fairly frequent example. I suppose, in the end, the team never did kill him simply because they needed him. He was like...a decker/medic/face. I played virtually every support role for a team of covert ops fighters. It worked out better than you'd think.

Finally, we had one campaign in which our Johnson turned out to be an Fallen-Angel. It was a one time GM doing sort of a guest session for us, and you'd be surprised how well he managed to fit it in to Shadowrun. Very interesting leg work, even involved me calling the Catholic church. One of the best sessions I've ever played, even if it was a bit fast and loose with some of the rules and lore of Shadowrun. Plus, I now get to say "I did a run once where a fallen angel had us sneak a shipment of drugs in to Miami"

EDIT: I'm actually religious in real life, even if most of my SR characters aren't.
Tyro
"It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps" biggrin.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 9 2010, 10:10 PM) *
Generally, murder means deliberately killing someone in cold blood (i.e. wetwork), while killing includes things like fighting in a war, self-defense, etc.

Basically, the difference between the 5 point pacifist negative quality and the 10 point pacifist negative quality.

Yes, but what did the word 'kill' mean in 1611 when the King James was translated? That's the real question. For example, the King James uses the phrase "gay attire," which would not be used (almost at all) in common conversations today, and if it is used, has a different meaning.

Or like when in Genesis 2 when God tells Adam and Eve to "replenish the world." In 1611 the word Replenish had one meaning - to fill. About a hundred years later, they added the secondary definition "to fill again," then another roughly hundred years later they switched the primary definition to "to fill again" with the secondary definition "to fill." Then about 70 years later, they simply dropped the old primary definition, which was "to fill," so it now simply means "to fill again." All this has lead to some interesting (and heretical) thoughts of pre-Adamite civilizations, including a first Judgement of Man and a rebellion of Satan before the world was made, which is all clearly against what the Scriptures say.
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