Yes i know, we already had this topic. But i have to say that it wasn´t finished really satisfying for me.

Here´s the problem:

If you want to get qualities after game-start, you have to pay karma for it. So far so clear. But there HAVE to be some way to get things simply granted or donated by the GM through good old roleplaying e.g.
If i choose to become a ghoul e.g., i want that benefits and have to pay for it. But if a ghoul attacks you and you fail the resitance test of the virus, you become something you don´t want to and have to pay for it anyway? That sucks and is completely out of the roleplaying-intention i have known over the years. If the GM gives you access to a lot of stuff for free, you simply take it and you don´t have to spend karma for the corresponding money-costs.

So is there meanwhile an offical opinion on this? Is there still a possibility to get things through roleplaying instead of paying something off? And please don´t tell me that you have to play for the allowance to spend your karma. ^^

But there HAVE to be some way to get things simply granted or donated by the GM through good old roleplaying e.g.
Little Bonuses (like good Raputation or....(Mut ?) Valor ?...StrongWill) are given for Free by our GM (or by Me,If I GM) but something as Important or Charchanging like the HMHVV Virus must be paid by Karma, because it would be Unfair to other Players Chars if given for Free.
But,hey,Its your Game.If your Group is Ok with it, give It to your Players for Free

with a Dance for free
Medicineman

....oO(and isn't Allowance the Money that you give to your Kids ?)

I would beg to disagree on this point, if the player does not want the change, and it cripples their character concept, to then charge them karma for is it being the top grade of asshat. If they go looking for it, by all means charge them, if you inflict it on them against their will, and then charge them for it, its like someone forcefully giving you a heart transplant and saying you owe them the 1/4 million for the surgery and life time supply of anti rejection drugs, when in most cases you should be able to sue them for millions of dollars.

The Karma system exists to reflect the intrinsic development runners exhibit through gaining precious experience. A samurai who spends karma on raising his Automatics skill hasn't really been blessed by the god of firefights, he's simply used his SMG often enough and well enough in real combat to achieve a higher mastery without additional training. This currency is abstract for book-keeping reasons (just imagine earning 1 point for Automatics, 1 for Strength, 1 for ...).

My interpretation (or house rule perhaps) of the system is that Karma is not necessary. Ask yourself this - suppose your character performed miserably in his latest run and gained a pittance in Karma. He then spends the next six months in training simulators and in sessions with a variety of expert tutors. Does his skill rating remain unchanged until he has better luck on a job? That would be very disatisfying. Consequently the need for Karma should be circumventable through roleplaying, just like the way you have to earn contacts by actually winning them over instead of just throwing a few Karma points at them.

Therefore the Karmic cost of gaining and losing qualities, as I see it, is for instances where the character seeks a quick fix. For example, booking some gene therapy to cure a psychological disorder hasn't really earned the lifting of the negative quality in question so it costs the character in the same way as improving ratings. However, seeking out a world expert and convincing him to take you on as an apprentice might be considered (after months of his teaching) enough effort to warrant awarding the relevant Aptitude quality.

In your ghoul example it could be argued that your Karma pool has been hijacked by your assailant and that the spiritual shift of becoming infected (and gaining all those lovely benefits) takes a one-time toll on your ability to develop in other areas. I'd personally consider that to be a rather brutal game, especially if it's not a quality you wanted, and would instead consider that the quality has been 'achieved' through roleplaying (i.e. being attacked by a ghoul).

As for there being an "official opinion", wouldn't that be something of an oxymoron...?

I would beg to disagree on this point, if the player does not want the change, and it cripples their character concept,
wowowowo

I'd never Change a Char Concept without the Players agreement (And me personally,I hate HMHVV )
Especially I would Never Cripple it ....Hey I Like my Fellow Players

But If You Change a Char (F.E. he takes latent awakening and you as a GM spin an Adventure during which he becomes a full Fledged Mage ,complete with Patron and everything) than the Char has to pay with his Karma or it would be Unfair to the other Players,thats all I'm saying/posting

with a Frinedship Dance
Medicineman

Of course, if you take this special happening you would be completely right, but paying karma for something you don´t want to or something you should have achieved through roleplaying, would be the same as if you create an awesome plan or tactic for your next run and the GM would nevertheless force you to make an success test in tactics if you can really create such a plan or not. In this case roleplaying would be completely useless if not for the fluff. You could go on several runs, shoot all the time and afterwards you could pay off a quality like "nosferatu" which has absolutely no connection to the source of the karma.

would be the same as if you create an awesome plan or tactic for your next run and the GM would nevertheless force you to make an success test in tactics if you can really create such a plan or not.
hmmmmm one Hand you're right....but what about the other Hand ?
If you Play a dumb Skullcraker Troll with LOG 1 and you as a Player come up with a masterful strategic plan wouldn't it be right for the GM to ask for a ...kind of Ingame Resolution ....(Bestätigung?)

You could go on several runs, shoot all the time and afterwards you could pay off a quality like "nosferatu" which has absolutely no connection to the source of the karma.
the same here
Would'nt it be unfair if the Gamesmaster would give your Char an advantage that is worth 150 to 200 Karma
and give nothing to the other Players ?

As I said bevore.If your Group is Ok with it,Houserule it

another (though smaller) example
the Disadvantage in Debt....:should it be paid for in Karma when you pay Back the Money or not ?
You achieved something in game but if you pay back all the Money you wold have a disavantage ,that isn't one

HokaHey
Medicineman

I don't think you'll get an Official answer.

It's your game, you can do what you want.

Given that, I have some suggestions. Fundamentally when the Game World, as determined by the GM, adds a Negative or Positive Quality to a Player Character, there is the question of equity with the other players. If all PC and players feel equally rewarded with non standard in game rewards, things that are not Karma|Nuyen, then you really don't have a problem.

What you are really trying to avoid is Player B feeling slighted by the fact Player A character got a cool Positive Quality for free. Or that Player A feels picked on by having received a Negative Quality when no one else has something like that happen to them.

You also get to deal with balance between the players, there won't be a simple answer. You can have situations where the Team feels it's entirely reasonable to allow one PC to have extra non standard reward because that PC is driving the plot|fun for everyone. It's okay to reward one PC because it makes more fun for all.

You can also have situations where a player will feel a Negative Quality is in fact a reward as it makes for more fun role play.

Just like any other element of the game where the numbers on the sheet meet the RP of the character, you must deal with the people playing the game and what is fun for them. Every PC is 400 BP, but the numbers and effectiveness and amount of fun is far more dependent on the player and PC personalities.

As a side note, in Hero System, non standard rewards are specifically allowed and encouraged. For example, in a few of my own SR games I have given rewards to PCs such as "Pick any skill at 1 and add it to your character", "Pick any NPC you've encountered this session as a L2 contact". This gives me as a GM a tool to help round out a team or PC without depriving the players the chance to spend the karma however they want. You could tell all your players, "Remove 5 BP worth of any Negative Quality." as a reward.

If he take latent awakening he's read the fine print that says he pays the karma cost for awakening, so I'm good with that, if your being generous you 'could' give it to them under 'interesting' circumstances, but asking that they pay for it is part of that particular edge. Now having a character go to a bar, go home with some cute girl, and wake up a vampire, then demanding the 1-200 karma that's worth, would likely get the player feeling they've been shafted.

I'm not sure being a vampire is all that big an advantage.... if you're a sammy, rigger, or hacker, all your ware is forcefully ejected from you body... meaning you just lost all the bp, money and karma, and contacts you sunk into getting it the first place, if your a mage your initiation group might not be so happy with you any more, and if you had a legal sin.... well sucks to be you.

So when characters loot gear off the corpse of a security guard, you charge them 1 karma for every 2500 nuyen of the cost?

Vampirism, the new STD. Or you're just talking about the opening of VtM: Bloodlines.

<Dbl Post>

@Mordinvan
As I Posted before, I'm no Friend of HMHVV its Broken,it destroys Char Concepts ,etc
I'd never infect a Player (not even with his consent !) pleas read what I write.
(Maybe I didn't use the right Words ? )
Me personally I'm shure that vampirism is nothing good,but According to RAW its a... how much 75 ? 100 ?BP Advantage

The same to etherial
How comes you assume me being an Idot charging Karma for Loot ?
I never wrote this and I think thats even ridiculous !

with a slightly disgruntled Dance
Medicineman

As a GM I take a very odd stance on Karma debt or at least odd for what I've seen. I will always make people pay for it but some times not with karma and some times I'll give the over PCs a chance to get X easy to make up for the new vamp and thus lower his karma dbt thus hes not shafted massively and the other aren't short changed and if the other PCs miss out on spotting the freebies and one doesn't their own fault untill the same change comes along a few seestions later.

For Example one PC is (un)lucky enough to get HMHVV the other PCs might have contacts tell them about a ship ment of ware or the location of dealta lab and some blackmail goodies so they cna get in maybe one PC get lucky with a huge score or drugs for his addition or even accese to some experimental gen tech that removes additions. Now these bonus might not add up to being a ghoul but they will in my eyes lower the debt the PC would then have I also only get rid of karma debt by half of all karma goes to paying it off automatically thus allowing slower delevopmetn not a massive stall.

Personally, I would say yes charge him. That will teach him to be more careful about who he goes home with. Players that do stupid stuff should not be given a "free ride" or rewarded for doing the stupid stuff. Do you give them a break when they fire that AK into the gas depot using incendiary rounds? I don't, so why should I give them a break when they do a lot of shacking up without knowing who they are shacking up with.

As for the ghoul fight, well again they failed the "save" and there are consequences to that. There is always the option to retreat instead of going in and fighting. I play The Other Game as well and the consequence for losing to a wraith or ghoul is a disease or loss of level. Should the player not have to loose the XP that goes with the level? I equate Karma to XP, only spendable (like the old 3.x version of The Other Game for wizards to craft magic items).

Just my opinion and like others said, if it works for the group, then that is all that really matters.

I think a lot of people that would charge karma for something like HMVV are missing the point of SR-
they are looking at it purely as a rules system with numbers and stats.
Lets not forget the Roleplaying portion of the game.

Being a ghoul for instance, though statistically pleasing, is a piss poor thing to happen to anyone(RPwise) in game.

Once...long ago, one of my players got infected and made the change into a ghoul-
his character committed suicide-
He prized his looks, and not wanting to eat flesh, go figure.

The same goes with qualities like 'In Debt'
the debt is payed off, then the quality is gone.

There are other factors to consider than just karma and bp's

its a ROLE playing game, not a Stat playing game.

Bingo! Becoming a Ghoul may give your character positive attribute modifiers, but it's a Negative Quality in my eyes.

That's a Stormwind.


The reason we make use of a persistant cost-tracking system is to ensure that all characters have some objective basis for comparison and balancing. The reason that we want comparable and balanced characters is so that all players can share the spotlight as equitably as possible and therefore have equal amounts of agency. To save us a long discussion about what this all means, I'm saying that we want balanced characters so that everyone is given equal chance to roleplay meaningfully.

The implementation of a "did they intend to have this happen" condition as part of whether you pay for a gained quality just gives these guys an unfair advantage as a player (i.e. free qualities).

Yes, the crappiness of HMHVV as an affliction is something I really hate. The fact that it cripples half the character concepts, and mildly inconveniences the other half in exchange for significant stat boosts, is shit and the fact that you can have this happen to your character without your consent is fucking terrible design. It adds nothing to the game in the same way that random 100 foot holes add nothing.

You're going after the wrong end of the problem, in my opinion.

if someone is being turned into a ghoul, they can burn edge to get a critical success on their first resistance test. this will reduce the disease's power to 0. (number of successes required + 4 means you reduce the disease's power to 0). therefore, not turning into a ghoul is actually surprisingly easy for a PC. don't want to become a ghoul? easy enough: burn edge. (this obviously assumes you failed the first and foremost against becoming a ghoul which is to avoid getting infected to begin with)

as to the other forms of HMHVV, well, in general if you are in a position to get infected by them, you are in a position where you should be dead anyways. if you don't want to play a vampire, either turn the character over to the GM as an NPC and make a new character, or if your GM is too much of an ass to let you do that (and you're desperate enough to stay in his/her games anyways) burn edge to die instead, and *then* make a new character.

i do agree that nobody should wake up one morning and be told "oh, by the way, you're a vampire now", but the solution there is to give them a chance to avoid getting turned into a vampire. don't have them wake up and find out they were turned in their sleep, give them a chance to realise what's happening and get away. at that point, they either get away, or at least they had a chance to not become a vampire. better yet, don't punish your PCs for roleplaying and not have random women/men that they go home with turn out to be vampires, and only include that possibility if it's going to be actually meaningful to the plot (otherwise your PCs are quite justified in making all their future characters hermits who have sworn off all unnecessary human contact, as far as i'm concerned)

nm

For me it all depends. I tend to hand out contacts like candy at Halloween when I run games, on the other hand if someone tries a Xanatos Gambit to get something like Infected as a freebie I smack it down pretty hard. On yet another hand, if it honestly happens by accident I'll tend to hand out rewards to other players as well to keep things fair on a bp/ karma scale, though not exactly even since costs do not factor in the huge stigma associated with being Infected in my opinion.

If it occurs during character creation I believe players should pay for it. If it occurs during play I would not charge karma in 99% of instances. It is just like charging karma for getting money, goods or contacts.

In addition to what Jaid said, let me quickly point something out here.
When a character gets bit by a ghoul, their blood turns septic and they start to die. Part of their brain dies during their transformation. A transformation which leaves them as an entirely new creature, with new senses and drives.

That's going to necessitate some adjustments, nu? Personally, I'd offer a guy a karma discount if this happened in play, but it should take some work to adapt to being dual-natured, brain damaged, and hungry for human flesh. The guy isn't who he was before the change, but, hey at least he's not dead. And, like Jaid pointed out, it's a fate anyone can avoid just by burning one of their "get out of death free" points.

Also, and I'm aiming this at no one in particular, but I've got to say that it always makes me wince a little when people talk about spending karma points like it was cash money. Karma ought to represent something more than numbers on a spread sheet.

It sounds like a Roleplay versus Rollplay fallacy to me (no offense intended). There's nothing wrong with spending Karma like money, because money is used to buy goods and services, and in the same manner, Karma is used to buy skills and attributes. How someone chooses to spend this resource is entirely up to the player.

I personally spend Karma on organic choices for my character. Things that the character thinks he needs to learn or study or build up. For example, I've flubbed two Logic tests so far on Parazoology, so I got a Parazoology 1 skill for him this last session, because he wants to actually know shit about it instead of letting down the team. I don't have any interest in Parazoology as a player beyond this. I also have bought a boatload of languages throughout my runner's career because he's a language nut. He likes to speak and be understood, and he likes to understand other people. They are functionally useless in much of the campaign.

Still, I would never, as a GM or player, try to impose that sort of organic karma standard on other people. We play RPGs to have fun, and while I don't see making karma some sort of mystical or organic connection (between the stars, the player, the universe, the character, and the internet) causing much grief, neither do I see treating karma as numbers on the page (and a resource to be spent like so many beans) as being detrimental to most campaigns. Some folks do play Roleplaying Games for the "Game" aspect, the stats and the rolls and the statistics (which is why game system selection is important to a lot to most gaming groups). Any system can be used for folks who aren't into that sort of the thing and are more interested in developing neat and deep/wacky/subtle characters (where the game universe and the means to acquire character traits matter more)... there are reasons your group selects the system it does. Otherwise, I'd be playing the game that causes Cancer.

Back on topic, if you have a game where the Gamemaster and the Players can safely be adversarial and awful consequences are inflicted on both NPC and PC alike (I truly admire such groups, I really do), then it is quite "fair" to drop a bomb like HMHVV (any strain) or weird negative qualities or even character death on the characters, with or without Karma/BP cost. You play the game for a challenge and for dramatic stories, and you know that life isn't fair. However, the vast majority of gaming groups out there play like a compromise between the GM and the players. It's a social contract in which all members vow to try to have fun and enjoy the game, and try not to do things that would cause the other players/GM undue anxiety or pain.

In our group, we joke that it's the players' job as a whole to make the GM cry. But really, we rely on the GM as a facilitator to help us write our personal stories. We also rely on the GM to be the goblins, the gangers, the boss battles, and all of the other crunchy bits that we enjoy doing in our video games. There is a balance that is struck here, and as long as the outcome of the balance is "fun for everyone", it's fair game.

I think nobody should ever be infected against their will - it has a HUGE impact on a character, and the player has probably invested a great deal of time and effort by that point. I would only infect someone if the player okayed it in advance.

Sorry ;its not that Easy (at least by RAW)
Even if you Lower the Power to 0 you still have to Make 9 more tests.the next one will be Power 8 again (and if you Lower this one to ...maybe 4 than the Following Test will be Vs Power 12 (it Adds up ! )
And If you're being bitten by Two Ghouls (Hell According to RRAW Rules even if you only get Close to them)you have to resist against both
But the HMHVV Problem has allready been discussed (in Length !)

i do agree that nobody should wake up one morning and be told "oh, by the way, you're a vampire now", but the solution there is to give them a chance to avoid getting turned into a vampire. don't have them wake up and find out they were turned in their sleep, give them a chance to realise what's happening and get away

You're damned right
+1 from Me

I think nobody should ever be infected against their will - it has a HUGE impact on a character, and the player has probably invested a great deal of time and effort by that point. I would only infect someone if the player okayed it in advance.


Hmmmm, If you don't want to infect someone you have to play without Ghouls,Vampires and any Kind of HMHVV because it's highly contagious (Read the Rules and Shiver !)

HokaHey
Medicineman

Which is why you give the players a way out. From my experience this comes in three ways.

1) If they didn't want it and are ticked they got it don't make them pay karma for it.

2) GM handwave some cure thats been kept for the wealthy and powerful because of its cost and craft a run around stealing it.

3) Fight infected mostly with the negative quality that says they cant pass it on (cant remember the name.)

Any of these work, choose whichever you think solves it best. Personally I prefer Option 2. You keep the infected, no one gets a free boost/character ruined, and you can keep the lethality of the infected. On the other hand you can't make this run EVERY time someone gets infected so its generally a good idea to give them that freebie and from that point on stress that they should wear protective materials to keep from being infected again.

And this would be quite uninteresting. The fear of not being infected is one of the main-moodmakers in the game.

Ya I addressed that right at the end and saying what my groups GM did.

"On the other hand you can't make this run EVERY time someone gets infected..."

2) GM handwave some cure thats been kept for the wealthy and powerful because of its cost and craft a run around stealing it.
No Need to Handwave it
Nanites solve the Problem

with a tiny little Dance
Medicineman

Wait...they can? Then whats so scary about the infection?

The karma cost system as a whole is not persistent in play.

Sure, the changes (Learning stimulus, Initiation/Submersion cost reduction) seem small and secondary at first, but at the bottom line, the character using those will have more free karma to throw at primary stats than the one not.
A character burning Edge due to back luck will lose karma on the other hand, as will some one that loses a focus/ally, perm-binds a spirit/sprite, donates karma to a free spirit - or gets a GM/wound-inflicted Negative Quality... even losing that Positives Quality he paid karma for by GM-fiat.

You need to have those level 9 O-Cells.

because its rare,costly and for the Rich & Famous. If You prepare way ahead for Infection and pay(how Much 25.000 per Dose ?) a huge amount of ¥ it's ok You won't get infected, but if you get surprised by a Ghoul Attack....
you won't be able to get Lvl 8 or 9 O-Cell-Nanites in Time. You're either Dead or a Ghoul !

Hough!
Medicineman

Not so bad at all. +4 Body, +3 Strenght.

Hmmm so my technomancer get's bitten by a vampire (not a combat character, so nothing he could do to stop it, vampiric charm, and etc...) He is now a vampire, loses all technomancer ability (can't have rtesonance and magic), loses all of his ware (rejection), is hunted actively because he is now infected, and then the GM charges him Karma? Remind me never to play in any game you run Forgarn.

Good point.

Won't Help you if everybody shoots you on Sight

Hough!
Medicineman

Or becomes the first resonance based Vamp, sucking life from the internets. Go TechnoVamp, Go!

Vampmancer???