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Tyro
I think this is a very important question for anyone building an augmented character to ask (not just Samurai). If upgrading is allowed, it's in your best interest to start with better 'ware (synaptic boosters, etc.) and upgrade later. If not, it's probably better to start with cheap stuff - used Wired Reflexes for street games, for example - and buy the good stuff later.
Saint Sithney
What about a trade-in/trade-up option? biggrin.gif
Karoline
Personally I'd allow and have seen allowed an option to upgrade your 'ware within the same grade. It makes sense, you get some new wires added in on top of the old ones, they tone your muscle some more or add in more of it, whatever. I do however have a bit of a conceptual problem with your basic cerebral booster somehow being made into delta cerebral boosters. The fluff for delta stuff says that it is custom built/grown/made for you, which is why the essence cost is so low (Beyond simply being of higher quality) and so it seems unlikely that you could do a direct upgrade for just the price difference.

From a more game perspective though, I'd hate to have to decide between bothering to upgrade my X now, or waiting till I can save up for my Delta X (It can be somewhat fun to make choices like that at times, but it creates a juggling act I don't really like, kind of like deciding between spending BP on specialization or going the cheaper route and waiting to get Karma.)

You could of course trade in your old 'ware to help pay for an upgrade, but seeing as you're likely to get <25% of the original price, that is a hefty cost. Then again, I guess you could consider it as a 'rental' fee of sorts for getting the abilities in advance.

Sorry, know I didn't really go anywhere with all this, but it is late and I'm tired. Time for bed.
ker'ion
[NOTE:] The "other" on the player area is because I've never been a player in a SR game, as the only other person in my group who has shown any interest in GMing refuses to do so unless he can successfully kill everyone off in each session.
WyldKnight
QUOTE (ker'ion @ Jan 6 2010, 01:39 AM) *
[NOTE:] The "other" on the player area is because I've never been a player in a SR game, as the only other person in my group who has shown any interest in GMing refuses to do so unless he can successfully kill everyone off in each session.


First off thats just frightening.

On topic though my GM let us upgrade depending on what kind of ware it was like a few posts before stated. Then again we don't run our games as hardcore as some other people around here do.

I tried to vote we can upgrade no matter what but it says I don't select any so...yeah.
Dragnar
Mages and adepts already get to "upgrade" their schtick for free (and the former are already slightly stronger than mundanes).
Not letting people upgrade their stuff makes them weaker and actually punishes organic concepts (people won't take a piece of ware if they could get their hands on the better version).
So, while letting people just pay the cost difference to upgrade may not be "realistic", it's actually better from a gaming standpoint.
StealthSigma
This is our rules....

You can upgrade 'ware as long as it's within the same grade, but depending on whether it's bio or cyber we use a different formula.

For cyber you "trade-up" you sell your old cyber for 10% of book value and you buy new cyber at the negotiated price.
So going from Muscle Replacement 1 to 2. Would cost 10,000 for MR2 minus 500 for trade-in value, costing 9,500 total.

For bio you "upgrade" you pay for the cost difference between the old and new ratings plus 10% of the new rating.
So going from Muscle Augmentation 1 to 2. Would cost 7,000 for MA2 plus 1,400 for upgrading, costing 8,400 total.
Godwyn
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 6 2010, 03:33 PM) *
This is our rules....

You can upgrade 'ware as long as it's within the same grade, but depending on whether it's bio or cyber we use a different formula.

For cyber you "trade-up" you sell your old cyber for 10% of book value and you buy new cyber at the negotiated price.
So going from Muscle Replacement 1 to 2. Would cost 10,000 for MR2 minus 500 for trade-in value, costing 9,500 total.

For bio you "upgrade" you pay for the cost difference between the old and new ratings plus 10% of the new rating.
So going from Muscle Augmentation 1 to 2. Would cost 7,000 for MA2 plus 1,400 for upgrading, costing 8,400 total.


10%? Group really needs a better face cool.gif

I prefer the DM rule/logical upgrade approach, as others have mentioned. Muscle augmentation from 1 to 2, sure. To Delta, no.
MikeKozar
I've been pondering this myself, since our team's CybOrk couldn't afford a full-body conversion at character creation and clearly intends to do so when it becomes available. I'm certainly not going to stand in the way of his character concept (provided it's not exploitive or otherwise fun-defeating for the rest of the team) but I want to make sure that it is as close to the rules as possible - knowing you won without cheating is more satisfying.

One section that I thought was relevant was Augmentation, Pg 128 , where it talks about replacing cyberware with a higher grade, and how it leaves an Essence Hole that can be credited towards the next upgrade. I had been planning on suggesting this to him, but this discussion makes me think I'm missing something. Why would you *not* allow upgrades?

QUOTE (Augmentation, Pg 128)
In other words, if you remove one cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal. Note that a bioware implant would not be able to fill that same hole, howeverócyberware only.

Essence holes are important when replacing or upgrading implants. If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new implant may well have a lower Essence Cost than the old one and the character will develop an Essence hole that she can fill with further augmentations. Likewise, upgrading an implant often increases its Essence Costócharacters might choose to remove another implant to create an Essence hole so she can upgrade her implant without losing more Essence.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jan 6 2010, 05:39 PM) *
Why would you *not* allow upgrades?


If a whole system needs to be replaced, e.g. cyberware, then you're not just buying new parts to add on, but replacing the whole thing. You can't just strip it down a little, add some widgets and get Beta compatibility out of previously standard base parts. So, you have to buy and install an entirely new system, which means all new money.

Going from Wired 1 to Wired 3 may use some of the same parts though, so there would be more of an upgrade available there.
Omenowl
I would make them yank out their current cyberware and install the new upgrade. It is like a car engine at a certain point if you want a bigger engine or more power you yank out the old one and install the bigger one. Players can always recoup 10-15% of the cyberware cost by selling it used.

I would just recalculate the essence as if they didn't have any previous cyberware. Whichever essence loss is greater (the old installation or the new one) is what the characters essence is base based off of.

Fortunately cyberlimbs can be modular so players can just switch them out as needed.
Karoline
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jan 6 2010, 08:39 PM) *
Why would you *not* allow upgrades?


The question here is of providing a direct upgrade to the bio/cyber ware in particular. What you are talking about is 'upgrading' by virtue of removing the old ware and putting in new ware (Which is totally acceptable and in the rules, no questions asked). So the three schools of thought are that ware can be upgraded directly to a better model (Rating and grade) by paying for (New-Old) nuyen worth of parts and surgery, that you can upgrade some ware slightly (Rating only) for (New-Old) nuyen worth of new parts and surgery but new grades require a whole new base system (Somewhat supported by the fact that you have to have Alpha things to go in your Alpha cyberarm), and that you can't upgrade the ware directly, and so will have to rip it out and buy brand new ware of the higher rating/grade. This generally means you'll only get a pittance for the old ware, and thus upgrading you're ware becomes extreamly expensive, and something you have to think about alot before you do so, because upgrading from Muscle Toner 2 -> 3 is fairly pointless if you plan to get to 4 eventually unless you really need the bonus right now. This third method is perhaps the most supported by the rules because it clearly outlines essence holes and removal of ware, but never once mentions a direct upgrade of the ware itself.

Personally I like the second one the best because it is believable, and allows people to get power boosts a bit at a time instead of in giant leaps as forced by the third school of thought. The first one does the same, but I do like there to be some barriers in there, and upgrading from one grade of ware to the next seems like it should be a big thing for a character and not just one more small step by step process. Of course this does mean that Alpha and Beta will see less use thanks to people wanting to go strait from basic to Delta, but I figure it will still see enough use just because it is so much cheaper, and you sometimes don't need that much extra essence.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 6 2010, 06:09 PM) *
If a whole system needs to be replaced, e.g. cyberware, then you're not just buying new parts to add on, but replacing the whole thing. You can't just strip it down a little, add some widgets and get Beta compatibility out of previously standard base parts. So, you have to buy and install an entirely new system, which means all new money.

Upgrading from Wired 1 to Wired 3 may use some of the same parts though, so there would be more of an upgrade available there.



Ah, I see. So if my Rigger wanted to swap out his Lower Arm Cyberarm for a Full Arm, and insisted that the parts he already owned be integrated, giving him a discount, that would be an upgrade. Interesting.
Warlordtheft
For me, it really depends on the ware involved. Some I'll allow, others will have to be replaced. The other thing is the grades. If you change grades--you replace the whole system.
Tyro
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Jan 7 2010, 08:11 AM) *
For me, it really depends on the ware involved. Some I'll allow, others will have to be replaced. The other thing is the grades. If you change grades--you replace the whole system.

That's pretty much how I see it.
Elfenlied
In our group, it's unconditionally allowed. You merely have to pass the availability check for the new rating.

E.g. you have a Synaptic Booster 2. As soon as you make the Availability 18 check, you can pay 80.000, and you're good to go.
Ascalaphus
I suppose upgrading without fuss (in the same grade, and only with first-hand ware, after Availability tests) does cut down on anguished decisions at chargen. "Do I take the Skillwires-3 now, or do I hold out for 5 when we get some payouts in-game?"
Da9iel
For selling off used ware, we estimate surgery costs based on essence and grade. We assume data jacks (I think they have the lowest price/essence) are basically free and all costs are surgical. I. e. surgery costs 5000• per point of essence for standard grade. Beta grade sugery costs--how do I put this--20,000• per point of essence ų 0.7 if including essence reduction. We then subtract out the surgical costs to give the equipment base costs. Yes that means the datajack hardware is worth nothing. Legal (and legally obtained) used cyber pawning starts at 25% equipment base costs before negotiation. Hey, they sell it for 50%; why should they pay more? Fencing looted cyberware gets even less, 10%. Harsh?

I haven't reconciled this with the fact that used stuff costs 50% installed. Perhaps the increased essence could be accounted for by sloppier surgery. If data jacks are free before installation, what's the savings for a "used" one? Sloppy surgery. Yeah. I like it.
Stry
My opinion with grades and costs of cyberware is look at it like going to a Ford dealer. Standard cyberware is off the shelf parts; a good example is going to a car dealer and buying a V8 Mustang and there is a good chance he may have one in stock. Alphaware is more akin to a asking for a SVT Cobra Mustang, the dealer may have it on stock but he will most likely have st special order it for you. Betaware is is where things start to get complex you ask the dealer for a Roush Mustang or a Saleen Mustang, chances are that dealership does not have one and can not get one, only special dealers sell them and you would have to go to one of those dealers to get one. Deltaware would be more like going to a car dealer and asking for a Ford GT, or an Aston Martin DBS, chances are the dealer that sells them will not return your call, unless you are rich and or famous.

The other aspect of it is the clinic/surgeon. Your standard cyberware would be to extend the car analogy would be your standard car mechanic at the dealership, nothing special about him or the rest of the staff there. The alphaware surgeon, would be the chief mechanic at the garage that specializes in something, he can have additional training to be able do some slightly customization. A betaware surgeon might be a mechanic for a pit cure, or has won some minor awards at a car show, on top of the additional training to be able to do highly customized work, ether he or some of his staff will have some minor magic to add in the process. A Deltaware clinic/surgeon is like a Chip Foose or Jessie James, they have lots of training, skill, talent and resources to be able to build a car from scratch, and have lot of powerful metamagic to add in the healing prosses.

The thing to remember is the reason why data jacks seem so cheap is they are very common for salary men and professionals in SR. Two points here, frist Lets say for the sake of simplicity that the average wage slave makes around •50,000 a year. (Yes I know that is a little on the high end.) To spend 10% of your pay on an item is a lot for any one, no matter how much you make. So in my opinion •5,000 is not cheap, so I can easily see some on unknowing person walk into a street doc's clinic and pay for a "reconditioned" datajack. Second is if wired reflexes were as common as data jacks for every day people, wired reflexes would cost a lot less.

I think the game developers want to keep the sell price of used cyberware down as a means to prevent people from killing and organlegging every one they met with impressive cyberware.

Things to remember.
Even if you can afford •50,000 for a deltaware datajack, there are not that many delta level clinics. If memory serves correct there are slighty more than a hand full of delta clinics in the 6th world.
As rewards some Mr. Johnsons might allow one time access to a deltaware clinic, you still have to pay for the deltaware.

Karoline
Besides the rarity of delta clinics and the fact that most wage slaves don't want to burn that much money if they can help it, keep in mind that IC no one knows about essence, and so the advantages of delta grade cyber and such is much less directly seen. Why would a wageslave pay 5k for something they can get for 500 if both things do the same thing and work equally well? And even if they did know about essence, would the common wageslave who likely has less than a point of essence tops really be concerned about saving .05 essence? Only people who are going to be concerned about such a small amount are mages and sams. Someone only moderately using 'ware isn't gong to care too much about a few fractions of a point.
etherial
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 8 2010, 02:36 PM) *
keep in mind that IC no one knows about essence,


I dislike this kind of thinking, especially in a high-tech universe.
Stry
They may not know about essence per say, but they know a body can contain only so much ware before suffering ill results.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stry @ Jan 8 2010, 04:31 PM) *
They may not know about essence per say, but they know a body can contain only so much ware before suffering ill results.


True. It is somewhat detectable via assensing after all. I guess I should say that people don't know exact essence numbers, and so people aren't overly concerned with what their exact number is. For this reason, like I said above, most people aren't going to want to pay that extra 4500 nuyen (Something they know exactly what it is and what it can get for them) to save .05 essence (Something that is a vague concept to most people at best, and certainly has no direct benefit)
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 8 2010, 01:43 PM) *
True. It is somewhat detectable via assensing after all. I guess I should say that people don't know exact essence numbers, and so people aren't overly concerned with what their exact number is. For this reason, like I said above, most people aren't going to want to pay that extra 4500 nuyen (Something they know exactly what it is and what it can get for them) to save .05 essence (Something that is a vague concept to most people at best, and certainly has no direct benefit)


I kind of assume that in world there are sites, forums, magazines, etc. all catering to the shopper or enthusiast. When my Rigger changes a bad drone loadout for a great loadout because I reread the rules and got some help on Dumpshock, I imagine him browsing catalogs, 'independent' review sites, and shadow nets gathering info about how it works. The in-game characters might not know that upgrading to top end sensors gives you a 3-dice bonus to hit, but they could certainly run some tests and prove that it is more effective with improved sensors, Mythbusters-style.

In the same vein, I imagine that anyone who is reading up on the state-of-the-art cyberware is going to find articles comparing the off-the-shelf cyberware with the professional-grade stuff. In 2010, I see this a lot when it comes to electronics: you can get a home-grade ethernet router for $40, or a pro-grade Cisco for $300. I can't see any reason why 2073 tech shouldn't be marketed the same way; real pros use Zeiss-Ikon cybereyes, not knock-off Chiba imitations. If you want the boss to shell out for the top gear, you need to have a cost-benefit analysis ready to prove to him that it's worth the cash.

The question of how well Essence is understood in SR4 is obviously up to personal interpretation, but I think there are probably plenty of ways people can figure out how much system shock a metahuman can take. Any cyberclinic has to have some idea when a guy can't take any more chrome - if they don't know, they're gonna learn. If you don't assume a corporate coverup, this information is going to become fairly public knowledge. Anyone who goes in for a full-body cybermod is going to be told that they *have* to go pro-grade, because nobody survives getting that much cyberware otherwise.
Ascalaphus
I suppose anyone with some dots in Cybertechnology is familiar with the idea of Essence, even if they don't use that word. They probably consider Essence a far too hippy-superstitionist term. With some Cybertechnology, you can probably diagnose someone's Essence rating with whole-point accuracy. An alphaware doc can tell you in tenths of a point, and a deltaware doc in hundreds of a point; they need that precision to make deltaware work.

I'm not sure they'll have a handy scale though; probably they compute various immunostress intervals, bio-compromise levels, genetic desynchronization index, astral disjunction classes and so forth. Especially since bioware and cyberware are calculated separately for inpact, measuring a character's Essence IC is pretty difficult science.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2010, 07:21 PM) *
I suppose anyone with some dots in Cybertechnology is familiar with the idea of Essence, even if they don't use that word. They probably consider Essence a far too hippy-superstitionist term. With some Cybertechnology, you can probably diagnose someone's Essence rating with whole-point accuracy. An alphaware doc can tell you in tenths of a point, and a deltaware doc in hundreds of a point; they need that precision to make deltaware work.

I'm not sure they'll have a handy scale though; probably they compute various immunostress intervals, bio-compromise levels, genetic desynchronization index, astral disjunction classes and so forth. Especially since bioware and cyberware are calculated separately for inpact, measuring a character's Essence IC is pretty difficult science.


They call it your bio-mechanoid endurance rating. At least that's what I call it.
Tyro
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 11 2010, 06:59 AM) *
They call it your bio-mechanoid endurance rating. At least that's what I call it.

There really should be a canon name for this in-game (or more probably several).
Tycho
I allow upgrade of cyberware and Nanoware, if the have the same Grade.

Bioware has to be replaced, but can be sold as 2nd Hand to get some money for the new implant, exept it is cultered ware, which is worth nothing.

Genware isn't that popular so I don't know, but i think you could upgrade genware since it is just another therapie

cya
Tycho
Tyro
QUOTE (Tycho @ Jan 11 2010, 07:22 AM) *
I allow upgrade of cyberware and Nanoware, if the have the same Grade.

Bioware has to be replaced, but can be sold as 2nd Hand to get some money for the new implant, exept it is cultered ware, which is worth nothing.

Genware isn't that popular so I don't know, but i think you could upgrade genware since it is just another therapie

cya
Tycho

Reasoning?

Geneware can't be upgraded - no grades, no ratings. Why isn't it popular? If you pick the right ones, you can get some nice bonuses with geneware. It's not cost-effective compared to cyber/bio at first, but when you get into the upper grades it's a nice extra boost. Also, geneware can give bonuses to some things that cyber/bio can't (daredrenaline comes to mind).
Tycho
I ment, none of my players have genware, so i didn't have a upgrade problem right now. We play a low streetlevel campaign, so noone has much ware at all.

cya
Tycho
Tyro
QUOTE (Tycho @ Jan 11 2010, 07:39 AM) *
I ment, none of my players have genware, so i didn't have a upgrade problem right now. We play a low streetlevel campaign, so noone has much ware at all.

cya
Tycho

Ahh. Well, for the record, geneware can't be upgraded. Like I said, it doesn't have grades and it doesn't have ratings.

Geneware can actually be really good for street level if your backstory is done right. One of my toons has Genetic Heritage and a whole bunch of genemods, the excuse being that his dad was a shadowrunner who got a hooker knocked up. The mods his dad had bought for himself were coded to always manifest in subsequent generations, or mutated to do so - I left that up in the air.

[Edit:] That gets me thinking. Most geneware would be coded NOT to show up in your kids, as then the kids wouldn't need to buy it for themselves. I can even see the corps including code to make it HARDER for that to happen, whether through mutation or later tinkering. But what if geneware had two prices - one-generation (coded not to manifest in subsequent generations, even as a recessive) and dominant (coded to always manifest & reinforced multiple times throughout the subject's genes for redundancy against mutation and regression)? Corps could charge many times as much for "durable" genetweaks, though I don't know if there would be much call for them. I only know the barest basics about genetics, but it seems to make sense from a business standpoint. Thoughts?
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Tyro @ Jan 11 2010, 10:24 AM) *
Reasoning?

Geneware can't be upgraded - no grades, no ratings. Why isn't it popular? If you pick the right ones, you can get some nice bonuses with geneware. It's not cost-effective compared to cyber/bio at first, but when you get into the upper grades it's a nice extra boost. Also, geneware can give bonuses to some things that cyber/bio can't (daredrenaline comes to mind).


Synch is very nice too. From what I recall, intuition or intuition based skills are very hard/expensive to boost through augments compared to other attributes/linked skills. Reception Enhancers cost 20,000 per rating for just a +1 to Perception. Effect is on par with Skill Recorder (10,000). It does stack, and go hirer, but each additional rating (up to 3) costs 20,000 more. Ludicrously overpriced. I think they might just be one of the most expensive +1 enhancements you could buy.
Tyro
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jan 11 2010, 07:45 AM) *
Synch is very nice too. From what I recall, intuition or intuition based skills are very hard/expensive to boost through augments compared to other attributes/linked skills. Reception Enhancers cost 20,000 per rating for just a +1 to Perception. Effect is on par with Skill Recorder (10,000). It does stack, and go hirer, but each additional rating (up to 3) costs 20,000 more. Ludicrously overpriced. I think they might just be one of the most expensive +1 enhancements you could buy.

Attention coprocessors are only 3k/point up to 3 (standard), .3 cyber essence.
Reception enhancers are 20k/point up to 3 (standard), .2 bio essence, and are cultured (so can't be bought used).

That does seem a bit much :-/

My favorite part of Synch is the +1 to ALL COMBAT TESTS vs. a given enemy after that enemy's first attack. If I'm reading that right, it covers dodging as well as attacking - is that right? In any case, awesome for dodgemonkey adepts with max combat sense and high reaction (even sillier with Reakt). Full defense w/ cover, dodge first salvo, and bring down the thunder.

Adepts get Enhanced Perception at .25/point, but they don't get implanted UWB radar or similar silliness.
Ayeohx
It depends on the implant.
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