Given that a drone (for instance) is a device on the Matrix, it should have a System/Signal/Firewall/Response. I'm having a bit of a problem trying to find out where these stats are derived.

The reason for the question is that the example characters, Drone Rigger and Smuggler both have vehicles and drones (with Pilot instead of System) with assigned numbers.

If I check out the Sample Device Ratings table, the drones should be a 3 and the vehicle a 4. But in addition, this also seems to imply that vehicles can have specific hardware and OS's installed and that they can be hacked to improve ratings just like a commlink.

As a rigger, I'd expect to find forums on Ares hardware and OS with details on how it interfaces and possibly hacks on how to improve the devices, similarly to hackers and commlinks with hardware modules and OS patching.

This is just my attempt to get my head wrapped around the provided rules. The main question though is as above. Where do the stats listed in the example characters come from?

Thanks.

Carl

System and Firewall are handled by the Pilot rating. The Response is generally 3 for civilian drones/vehicles and 4 for security drones/vehicles. I imagine signal would follow be the same suit as response, but I can't find that table...

Or you go with Device Ratings of

3 Civilian
4 Security
5-6 Military

And upgrade them independent of the Vehicle's Pilot Rating


Keep the Faith

That's pretty much where I was leaning toward but I was also looking for a spot where it said that plus the potential for hacks. If I'm going to take over a drone at the Met (for example), I have to know the stats on how to get in to the device and take over. Sure, I can just write them down and say "see, that's the stats", but that doesn't tell where they were derived from.

Thanks for the quick responses though

Carl

Always glad to help...

Keep the Faith

And the Signal Rating Table (sr4a.222) can provide a default signal as well with microdrone at 2, vehicles at 3, and drone crawlers at 4. So again, I can derive a set of stats by gathering them from other places.

GMC Step Van- Response 2 (derived from Pilot/System as they have to match), Signal 3 (from the Signal Rating Table), Pilot 2 (from the description), Firewall 3 (from the Sample Devices table as a table of last resort).

The problem here is that it doesn't match the stats in the sample characters (4, 4, 4, 4).

Of course you can improve the stats based on the tables on sr4a.228 so I can create a Firewall and upgrade the hardware and software (it does say under the Coding Table that Pilot is improvable).

It's just that most of the information on all the Samples are picked out of the book from the listing of gear with the Commlinks of a couple (Hacker) being hacked and upgraded. Without a starting place for the vehicles and drones, do I start them all the way I described above? Derive the initial stats and then have the players improve the hardware and software? And that doesn't match up with the costs listed (although I haven't validated the commlink cost... next thing to check ).

Carl

As Above... We stat the System, Response and Firewall according to the Device Rating COmparison... SIgnal is obtained as you indicated as well, and then the Pilot Rating is Plugged in... Most Vehicles start with a Pilot of 3 IIRC... which works well for the Cvilian Device Rating of 3... as for Signal, it stays equal to the equivalent vehicle stat unless upgraded...Pilot rating is standard...

Of Course, all of these can be upgraded...

Keep the Faith

Actually I believe most groundcraft are Pilot of 2 and there are a couple of other vehicles that have a zero Pilot (the combat walkers I think; 0 Pilot, 10 Body). The GMC Stepvan has a Pilot of 2 as well which doesn't quite match the Standard Device Rating table

Carl

Ah Well... Goes to show that I should have looked at the books...
But then again, I also tend to upgrade Piolot to 3 anyways on those that do not hit that threshold...

Keep the Faith

I may be completely confused here, but aren't pilot and system 2 different things?

For example, a GMC step van is a normal vehicle and so has a device rating of 3. Signal, Firewall, System, Response, 3.

the agent it runs, its pilot, is 2.

But that points to another issue then. For the Smuggler and Drone Rigger, the GMC Step-Van, the Eurocar Westwind, and the four drones all have stats of Pilot 4, Firewall 4, Signal 4, Response 4. None of them mention System.

In the description, Pilot is the "dog-brain computer". Not as powerful as a Commlink, just sufficient to do the job it's designed for (Peripheral Device sr4a.221). Sounds like hardware + firmware (using today's tech) vs hardware + operating system.

Looking at the upgrading table; the Pilot software has a higher threshold but takes less time to upgrade than System so it shouldn't be the same there either.

If we go with the default rating, it's Rating x 3 or 12 target for each stat at 3 months per attempt. Hardware/Software=4 + Logic at 4 that's 8 dice. Buying successes means it'll take 6 tries or 18 months to upgrade the hardware and write a new OS/Firewall. Rolling might get it done in a year or even less, certainly no quicker than 6 months. That's a year per stat for 5 vehicles. 20 years to get all up to 4/4/4/4? Seems unlikely.

Carl

Just a note... Pilot is not the same as System... Pilot is the same as an Agent... that may be where you are going wrong here...

Keep the Faith

Not according to sr4a.245. The Drone Pilot program is similar to an Agent's Pilot program. Heck, it says here that "A Pilot program is basically a System program with extra features, and so is used whenever the drone’s System rating would be." So it's pretty clear that System does equal Pilot.

Carl

Thanks for the Citation... I stand corrected...

That's ok. I'm trying to gather the information from all over the place so I can resolve how the samples can get that hardware.

I have a similar issue with the Hacker's commlink. Why would he embed a Sony Emperor with a Response 2/Signal 3 (in his head at that)? With that, the final stats cannot be 5/5/5/5 since System can't exceed the Response rating and you can't improve any of the base stats by more than 2 points. So the best that commlink could reach would be a 4/5 which would leave his max System at 4.

Thanks for answers though. It does help me focus on the right areas it seems

Carl

No Problems...

Don't forget though that the comlink with ratings of 4 is Security Level... which is more than adequate for 99% of humanity

Keep the Faith...

I agree with that assessment, but the Hacker Example Character has a 5/5/5/5 listed which isn't possible with the listed hardware.

See I'm trying to reconcile the listed hardware to help the groups I've been running. Since we use the Sample Characters to help people get involved without going through the hassle (at least initially) of creating a character, it'd be nice if, even if they're not balanced, they're at least accurate _and_ I can point to where the information is.

Right now I'm creating a single page in my gaming wiki with the vehicle information. Stats and what they mean, a conversion from the meters per combat round to kph/mph, what are the steps for jumping in, etc. Part of my learning process is to take the given stats and see how they were derived. Commlinks are easy since the two stats for hardware and two for software are listed (even though the OS isn't always listed on the Sample sheets). When a vehicle/drone lists the same stats (pilot for system) and I can't easily locate where they came from, well then I post it here for answers

Carl

the 5/5/5/5 may have been done before they instituted the maximum of 2 point upgrades.

in any case, don't take the sample characters as being 100% accurate. shadowrun has a long and (not-very)glorious history of getting the sample characters wrong.

You might want to go through the Drone descriptions in the game and give them "correct" rating as well.

I play it so that anything that have:
A: Carries Security/Military drones is "Security"
B: Have "Security" or "Military" in their description
C: Have a weapon mount

...All have either Response 4 (Security) or Response 5 "Military".

This helps a lot and make things easier when building your drones.

Just something I noticed being said that is not completely accurate....



The System rating of the program can't exceed the response but you can put a system 6 program in a response 1 commlink....though the system will run at a 1

Yep you're right that it wasn't said. It does run at a slower speed.

Carl

Why isn't it possible?

My copy of SR4A has the sample Hacker with an Erika Elite who's base stats are Response 3 and Signal 4. Both of those can be upgrade to 5, within the prescribed limit of +2. Note that System and Firewall (being software-based, not hardware-based) are not subject to this limit.

I was one of the proofreaders on SR4A, we went over those sample characters pretty hardcore. I would be surprised if there are any obvious errors still.

I'd imagine the 'pilot is equal to system' is a typo that meant to say equal to agent?

Could be totally wrong about that though, but everything I've seen equates pilot to agent, not system.

SR4A p 245:


A Drone pilot is used for the Drone's System rating.

Also, for other Matrix attributes, you use the Device Rating. SR4A, p 222:


Pretty much the same as Tymeaus Jalynsfein said. And ALL of these values can be adjusted and customized, as needed, as long as you pay the cash to do so.

That's interesting. My copy says:



That's a copy/paste from my PDF copy.



Me too and I found my small share of errors in the PDFs I reviewed as well. I didn't go over the mechanics of the sheets though. Could the PDF have been updated? I just checked and my PDF date is March 11th, 2009. While I have selected "notify me of updates" on Battlecorps when I get PDFs, I see from a quick look that the 20th Anniversary one is not in the list. Sounds like I may have missed an update to the PDF.

Carl

As I noted in post 13:



It does seem clear but perhaps as noted in my previous answer, it sounds like my PDF is not up to date.

Carl

And we're back to my other comment. If you look at the target numbers and how long it takes to make the upgrades, to get all five up to 4/4/4/4 would take 20 years (plus or minus). It's not something you can buy off the shelf, at least in the current list of rules.

Carl

that's to program. if you just buy them, it's a lot quicker. and cheaper, relatively speaking.

I think you mean threshold numbers, but still. Actually, you can buy off the shelf. A corporation has done all the work FOR you. They have armies of wageslaves specifically hired to churn out programs. And this is just the software tasks, too. That's the whole point for having prices on these tasks. Apparently, the old way of "a hackz0r maek own programz yar!" is dead. Now you rely on teams of programmers who sit and make code for you at Tech Corporation X, and purchase the rewards from their hard work.

For the System and Firewall side, you are looking at:
System self-programmed: Rating x2 Threshold, 6 months interval
Firewall self-programmed: Rating x2 Threshold, 3 months interval
That would probably take a while to do, but you can also do it by steps to minimize the pain (since upgrading takes the difference of ratings rather than the rating of the new System/Firewall). OR you can just buy it (System 6 = 3000 nuyen. Same for Firewall.)

For the hardware side, it's as simple as buying Response and Signal upgrades (table, p222 SR4A). That takes very little time, looking at the Availabilities (2 day interval at most, which would mean 32 days at most if you had shitty rolls, and more likely going to be 2 weeks, which isn't unreasonable).

Yep, Threshold (I think I said it in a previous post ).

I see the software purchase table now and found the hardware one before which does help reconcile the settings. It's also something I brought up earlier about forums and swapping around mods so it makes sense even if it isn't totally clear

I haven't found where the upgrade is the difference in ratings. But with the other info, I have the answers I was looking for.

I also sent a note off to Quartermaster since there doesn't seem to be a way to be specific about notifications for updates after you're done buying the PDF (as in, I buy the PDF and forget to check the box which I know I've done even recently). I did just receive notice that Vice was updated (and I've downloaded it). It's possible (likely) that there are other PDFs that have been updated that I didn't get notified about because I missed selecting that checkbox after purchase.

And a big thanks for all for the help. It does make at least this part of vehicles clearer

Carl

If that includes drones, I'd love access to it. The lack of concise stats has been driving my GM nuts.

we could use an unwired 2 book. Sort of a combo of a Rigger's book with some crunch and just more fluff about how AR/VR and commlinks work. Unwired was good but we need more!

Me too, it's why I started the thread

I'll post most of the stuff on my blog (see my .sig) once I get it straightened out. Can't post specific vehicle information of course.

Carl

Good idea. Maybe instead of Unwired 2 we can call it


Rigger 4!




Carl

I have a PDF copy that was authored March 30th. They did re-release the PDF shortly after it was initially released to roll back on some of the changes. The print version matches the second release of the PDF. Try getting an update from Battlecorps.

I saw this today and thought it might be helpful. I always wondered about this too. It doesn't look like pilot equals system.

Arsenal. p.102

Look under Device/Software Rating.

That's interesting. It's certainly clearer in stating that Pilot is not System. I can interpret the quote from SR4a as an attempt to describe Pilot as _like_ System but not actually confirming it where the one in Arsenal is clearly stated.

Funny that the sample characters show Pilot, Response, Signal, and Firewall though.

Just another oddity

Thanks for pointing that out though. It'll go in my notes.

Carl