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Summerstorm
Hm, i just had a bad conclusion to the session i am leading just now... and after i looked over the rules, i am a bit grumpy.

Situation: The Runners tried their first "BIG THING" and got away pretty much clean, but there was an outgoing alarm call. The data and "material" was highly illegal and worth pretty much, so the response was to fly in an high-threat response team of a AAA-Corp which had a high interest and a protective contract (and owned the small Corporation which was robbed). They wouldn't have gotten there in time... but unfortunatly the runner organized to escape by helicopter... Well in that area was not very much air traffic, and the NPC's had not such a hard time to find the slower 'copter of our friendly NPC's. So they were over normal state territory.. and both their craft and the one of the runners were supposed to "be there". So the superior combat helicopter was loaded with a small strike team: 5 Men, one of them a combat mage. And on the astral they were accompanied by an projecting mage providing astral security against magical attacks.

WRONG... Well i ruled that it is possible to intercept spells in the astral. (Handled as the "dispelling" of sustained spells). I was sure that i read something... maybe i remembered something scrambled in my mind from times long gone. But turns out (Well half my players are REALLY into "Rules as written", and yeah it was a dangerous situation) this is not possible. Magicians cannot protect an object from spells whatsoever. Which resulted in the action: i cast an Force 8 Barrier into the rotorblades (or slighty in their path) The character used edge and filled up the 8 hits to have a stable Force-8 barrier in place. Logically it is impossible to evade it, or anything. (And i pride myself on being realistic whenever possible- and not in the way of the cool- BUT i have some problems with that (The session ended there with me promising to find out the best of what would happen, and how you could protect yourself from such a horrible death.

First: If it is not possible to intercept spells or harden specific part of an aircraft, that means there can not be any "close-to ground" missions of aircraft in any large conflict anymore, because any mage could kill them with a thought (Tanks and such can only be damaged or get stuck etc. on lod powerlevels) Also it would be too dangerous to use them for mass-transportion in some instances.

Second: Ok, lets say this force 8 Barrier stands and there is no way to protect the aircraft... Deadly or not? (I will not roll normal ramming damage for such an attack) But will it have enough of the rotor left to "screw" down to earth? Fall like a stone?

Well even if they get them down the highmagic and the astral projecting mage will be enough to track them and pressure them a bit more, of course.. i was just puzzled how a 2- million helicopter, filled with a team which cost a another 2 mill (streetvalue) and 35000 per month is unprotectable from a magical attack. Any suggestions and comments? And no i am pretty sure sent it rightfully. The Players were warned multiple times that if the guards push the two red buttons "Help from outside would come" and that the Corps belonged to Aztech and did some questionable things down there.

Funny thing is: if they would have fled by their trusty van or even on foot they would have escaped... till the magic tracking would begin.
wind_in_the_stones
I would think that rotors at full speed could punch through a barrier without a roll.
Stahlseele
Force 8 Barrier with full hits is about as strong as a Concrete Wall right?
Summerstorm
Not quite. it is as hard as a 10 cm slab of Densiplast, or bulletresistant glass or a security door. Well the barrier will be destroyed, no question... but the rotor? I am unsure of it, but at that speed against a "hard" surface... that 1/4 of it gone right there i would guess... and the rest might follow.
tagz
p185 SR4A under spell defense:
...
A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of - specifically, Detection Spells and Illusion spells - as the magician is actively "jamming" the mana around him. This does not mean however the magician is aware such spells are being used. The gamemaster should make a secret Intuition + Magic (3) Test to determine if (and to what extent) the magician noticed the defense
...


I would read that part to mean that you can jam an area's magic, as in around a helicopter, if the mage declared it as the target of their counterspelling. The mention of Illusion and Detection spells are just intended to show what it would be most useful against, not a restriction. As a Gm I would impose a -1 negative modifiers for each "spellcaster's magic in meters" of area being jammed (Ie, the size of the helicopter).

Additionally, just because they made the barrier doesn't mean that the helicopter automatically hits it. The barrier should be in either a sphere or wall form, and as such cannot be placed too close to the blades as the blades themselves would interfere with the shape of the barrier. Also note that barriers are not invisible. I would say the pilot definitely gets to make a Reaction + Pilot Aircraft test to avoid it.

And lets say that avoidance test fails, well if it didn't fail by a huge amount then perhaps the pilot pulled up enough to keep the blades out of the wall and hit the barrier with the actual frame of the copter, and that might be resilient enough to punch through.

There is a lot you can to to keep air chase viable without breaking the rules I'd say.
Karoline
Well, it can't cause an auto-crash of the chopper, but what it can do is force a crash test that the pilot will have to make or suffer the normal consequences of failing a crash test (Which is some damage I think). Keep in mind that the vehicles are moving very fast and so it is going to be difficult to place the wall 5 inches in front of the blades. Going to have to go several feet out to avoid the blades interfering with the formation of the spell or accidentally dropping it behind the craft.

Even with what Tagz says, magic is generally restricted in that the astral plane cannot affect the physical at all and vice versa, so I don't think an astral mage is going to be able to counterspell a spell on the physical plane (The one in physical space could have though).

Also, even if the vehicle is destroyed, there are plenty of reasons those inside would survive. They could have parachutes, or you could figure that they all strap in and the safety features of the chopper are good enough that they only take the normal damage from a car crashing when it hits the ground.

So, just a few ideas for you.
Draco18s
Wreck (Helicopter) wink.gif
kigmatzomat
While I think you can apply counterspelling to a helicopter, I don't think counterspelling does anything against barriers since the barrier spell doesn't target creatures or things.

I'd have rolled a surprise test and if the defending mage beat the ambushers he could have cast a spell at the barrier to break it before the chopper got there. If the pilot won the surprise test, he gets to make his crash test to avoid the barrier.

Falconer
Actually Tagz... read that again, note the specificity... SPECIFICALLY ILLUSIONS AND DETECTOIN SPELLS.

Those are spells which target the individual (and the people he's protecting) indirectly. You can't counter-spell a combat spell like firebolt cast at an object.

Under the spellcasting 101 section it lists specifically that when contesting spells, living people can add counterspelling dice to their resistance rolls. The very next paragraph it then continues that objects don't roll resistance but only get object resistance. There is no addition of counterspelling. (not only that the mage must declare who he is counterspelling and be able to see them).

Put another way, a mage can unkonwingly help his allies piece through illusions and resist detection spells without knowing about them.


Now the astral mage... it was SR1 and 2 that had that astral projecting mages could intercept spells in the astral before they reached their targets. This required astral combat though... and was stripped out of 3rd (and now 4th) so that's been gone for a long time. Not only that, the spell would counter-attack it's attacker.

Now the astral mage COULD do other things, such as summon an air elemental and order it to use it's movement power to impede the other escaping chopper. Or to continually use it's accident power on it. (forcing piloting rolls every round...). However, in this case he's acting through his 'agent' the spirit who is on the physical.


In the case of a helicopter this means that a pilot up front, may not be visible to a mage in the back. (then again for most vehicles in this day, the pilot is a rigger in a caccoon and out of sight.

As far as astral/physical interactions. Spells are either on one plane or the other. An astral mage can't dispel a spell cast on the physical (even though it still has it's astral aura). That's by strict RAW.


As far as the OP's post.
One, you have combat mages on both sides, who can be attacking each other or the occupants, or the vehicles. Generally there's other things which should worry you more... such as levitating and throwing large heavy mundane objects like rocks. (think of it as the SR equivalent of DnD bypassing magic resistance).

Counterspelling as cast is not RAW. Though, you could rule that the rotor is moving too fast for him to try and materialize it in their spin arc. Remember IF the barrier is penetrated... it is dispelled. The mage cannot see the rotors. I would do no damage to the chopper so long as the chopper busts through the ward. If it doesn't, only then would I resolve a collision. Further, I'd just have the chopper bust through (it's an armored chopper right... high body.. it'll do a LOT of damage, and I'd probably do say 4 damage from the barrier... and resist the damage as a pro-forma thing, chances are the chopper resists the damage... MAYBE give the chopper a little bit of a speed penalty... but it's still faster than theirs).

Also 8 hits... was it cast at force 8+?! Even if they edged it, it doesn't bypass the limitation on hits. Force of a spell always caps hits. And force 8 would be 7 drain to resist!!! (+3 drain code). Very few mages can take that kind of sustained spell duel. If that's their best idea for escaping against 2 mages... that mage will not long survive.



As far as defending against magic... said chopper you shoot at it with an AR packing APDS... same deal. It'll resist some of the damage, but you can't defend against it! Generally, the first rule of combat is don't get hit, or follow at standoff distance. (remember casting through optics is also a negative visibility penalty).
Karoline
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 17 2010, 09:12 PM) *
Also 8 hits... was it cast at force 8+?! Even if they edged it, it doesn't bypass the limitation on hits. Force of a spell always caps hits. And force 8 would be 7 drain to resist!!! (+3 drain code). Very few mages can take that kind of sustained spell duel. If that's their best idea for escaping against 2 mages... that mage will not long survive.


Yeah, he mentioned that it was a force 8 spell and that the edge was used to try and ensure all the force got used.
kzt
Fundamentally SRs magic rules are kind of broken for inanimate objects. For example, you can put a 10 point ward around a car and it does NOTHING against a powerbolt, because it provides a bonus to a roll that inanimate objects don't get. This seems pretty crazy to me. My suggestion is that wards instead reduce the successes of a spell attacking anything inside it, just like OR does.

My argument against the spell in this case is the speed of the helo, combined with the featureless area and the time it takes to cast, makes it hard to position the barrier correctly. Plus I'd have the helo just shoot the barrier if it can't swerve.

And then the mage on the attacked helo has a spirit hit the team helo with accident until the inveritable crash and burn.
Rotbart van Dainig
Given that since SR4A, even inanimate objects get a defense roll when having cover (cover rating only), giving them a resistance roll for being warded (ward rating only) isn't that far fetched.
Night Jackal
There should always be a pilot check to avoid hitting it. No way you can place it close enough so as to avoid the reflexes of the pilot without risking missing. Then if he failed I would roll damage on the helo as the blades might not have hit first to automatically wreck then make a crash check (fail here would be the rotors are taken out) ...if all that fails then it plummets or auto gyro's to the ground.


I would make the mage pass a judgment roll negate the pilot dodge test after passing the surprise test as well.
hahnsoo
The next time the PCs are in a helicopter or low-flying aircraft, they are SO screwed. Anything they can do to the world, the world can do to them.
Karoline
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 18 2010, 03:01 PM) *
The next time the PCs are in a helicopter or low-flying aircraft, they are SO screwed. Anything they can do to the world, the world can do to them.


I think they're in one as we post nyahnyah.gif
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Jan 18 2010, 05:01 PM) *
The next time the PCs are in a helicopter or low-flying aircraft, they are SO screwed. Anything they can do to the world, the world can do to them.


As my cousin used to say: if you give the Universe (the GM) the finger, the Universe (the GM) will screw you good.
Shinobi Killfist
A barrier is a fancy way to try and drop a helicopter when a power bolt would have done it just fie. Cast it at force 8(assuming that is double magic), if you get those 8 successes it take 11 boxes of damage. Sure it didn't blow up in one shot, but he next powerbolt only needs 5 successes to get past the threshold and it will be toast. A mage with a 5 or 5 magic might be able to one shot it. Even since the 4a scatter rules mages are some of the best antivehicle weapons in the game.
The Monk
As the GM I would have to consider whether the Barrier is effected by gravity, how difficult it is to place the barrier in front of a moving object, whether the mage can form a barrier that is moving through space, or if he has to determine where the vehicle will be and form a barrier in the space that it will be once it is formed.

I would not say that you can form a barrier that is moving, otherwise why not just form a barrier moving at 400 km/sec and just launch it at everything you come across.

With all of those factors, it seems like it isn't an automatic win. The mage would have to aim the spell. The way that I would describe the spell working is that the pilot of the aircraft would see a shimmering somewhere ahead as the mage calls the barrier into existence. He would then have to steer clear of it or stay the course and fly through it. Shoot, if they are all in helicopters moving fast, it might not even be possible especially if they are close together. The mage may have to start forming the barrier in front of his own aircraft so that it ends up in front of the opposition's.

Since the spell is being used in an unconventional way, I would have to say that you would need to step outside of RAW to determine the effects. I would say that at least the pilot would get a chance to dodge out of the way.

crash2029
As a note to the OP, when a chopper loses engine power and has to "screw" down to earth, the proper term is autorotation. It involves reducing the collective (tilt) of the blades as well as disengagement of the rotor so that the blades may spin freely. The idea is to generate as much spin as possible. Then when close, pilot's judgement, to the ground the collective is increased sharply in an attempt to generate resistance and thus soften the landing. It is incredibly difficult to do, but can save lives.
kzt
As long as you avoid dead man's curve you can.
Summerstorm
Ah, thanks for all your thoughts on that.

I think i will go with a heavily penalized dodge-test of the pilot. They HAVE a mage on board too, but he can't see shit, and such a barrier will come into existance in about 1/2 - 1 second maximum. I think it is very likely to hit, part of the rotor will break or deform, making the helicopter hard to control. Then a mighty crashtest and some REALLY pissed off Mega-Corp specialists cursing the heavens. Ah well, at least the PC-Mage will leave an eight-hour magical link floating in the air *g*.

Oh and for the 8 magic: yeah its extreme overcasting. The action takes place in an anomaly field with an unexplained background-count of 2.

But really... the magic rules... did not transitioned right over the years. Intercepting a spell in the astral world should really be possible. (I would integrate it into my houserules, but as i said: My people LOVE RAW... don't want to alienate my group *g*)

So people don't use Helicopters anymore in war... T-Birds can have slightly armored intakes for its engines i guess and wouldn't be so fragile against these kind of spells. Or could one armor the blades and all its components/mechanics so good that they can cut through concrete or a security door (barrier 8-12).

Ah well. i guess i let them take down those guys. Makes for a funnier after-run scenario if they really piss of a Mega-corporation for the first time *g*. Let the paranoia ensue.
Karoline
Well, given how quickly the blades are moving I don't doubt that they would be able to damage a concrete wall. And with all the tech of the future, I'm sure the blades could be designed to take fairly minimal damage (By giving them a more cutting edge for example) from spell walls.

Also keep in mind that force 8 walls are fairly rare. Joe mage only has 3s and so only throws 6 dice for drain and casting, which means he'll get 2-3 hits at best and take some damage from a spell like barrier.

No reason to make it a harder than normal crash test I think. Pilots are likely to know about hazards such as walls cropping up in the middle of the air. Also keep in mind that something is going to have been done about this for flight in general, because it would otherwise be very easy for a terrorist group with a couple mages to throw up barriers in front of an airline carrier.
W@geMage
As far as I know you need to form the barrier in empty space, so that should give the pilot a radar warning and the possibility to avoid the barrier.
Shooting it with the helicopters gun would also work.
Further, the party mage could go astral and get 1 attempt to dispel or weaken the sustained barrier enough to allow the helicopter to push through without too much damage.

Either way, they'll still be screwed with 2 mages, a couple of spirits and a HTR team after them. Their best option might be to attempt to ditch the helicopter or negotiate its turnover for their freedom.
The Monk
I think it would require some sort of test for the Mage as well. From the description the casting mage is also in a helicopter.

Imagine if you will, trying to keep your eyes on the same spot in space, with no point of reference while in a moving aircraft, at the same time trying to time another aircraft following you. It takes a little more than a second for the spell to form. Both helicopters can move a great distance in one second.

The spell has to finish close enough to the chasing aircraft so that the pilot has to make a hard turn, but can't appear behind the aircraft (in which case the spell might be broken because you've lost line of sight).

Don't know about you, but this seems hard.
Karoline
QUOTE (The Monk @ Jan 19 2010, 12:33 PM) *
Don't know about you, but this seems hard.


Very hard. Though to be fair, the mage did get eight hits on his spellcasting test. That's above and beyond all difficulty thresholds, though of course this sort of targeting might not be based on a spellcasting test at all.
DireRadiant
Spirit movement power to slow the falling helicopter.
Adarael
There's a very simple solution to this problem. Don't think of it as the rotor "chopping through concrete" - treat it as a crash test between the vehicle and a barrier, which is exactly what is going on. Because it's rotor-specific, you might wanna lessen the vehicle's armor a bit. But even so, a crash test between a helicopter and a Force 8 barrier is almost certainly going to result in the barrier getting destroyed, the chopper taking minor damage, and continuing on it's merry way to harass the runners. Combat choppers have a LOT of body.
Ayeohx
I think you got it wrong OP. ALL vehicles are deathtraps in Shadowrun. Run a few simulations - pretty funny stuff.
wind_in_the_stones
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jan 17 2010, 06:44 PM) *
i was just puzzled how a 2- million helicopter, filled with a team which cost a another 2 mill (streetvalue) and 35000 per month is unprotectable from a magical attack. Any suggestions and comments?


What, and who did the crashing helicopter land on? I know it's after the fact, but a ton of professional security, corporate (Azzie) or public (Lone Star), might serve as a bit of a deterrent to future public displays of flashy, destructive magic. Astral signatures can be tracked. This is why such destruction is not very common (that, and the fact that mages are rare, which doesn't help shadowrunners). But the destruction was caused by a AAA-owned strike team? They probably wouldn't have done this, unless they could make sure it was over uninhabited area (not common in the Seattle sprawl).

By the way, the usual way to take out a vehicle is to order a spirit to kill everyone in it, starting with the driver. Doesn't always work if there's a mage onboard.

Rotors travel so quickly, that I believe they would be cutting through the barrier as it coalesced. Not supported by the rules, of course.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jan 19 2010, 03:43 PM) *
Very hard. Though to be fair, the mage did get eight hits on his spellcasting test. That's above and beyond all difficulty thresholds, though of course this sort of targeting might not be based on a spellcasting test at all.


What else would they base it on. Spellcasting applies to how accurate you are with spells and how powerful they are. Like you, I think 8 is enough...
Shinobi Killfist
double posty
Doc Chaos
Fire Elemental, manifested in the engine. Mages cant see it, Mages cant nuke it, at least not for a short while, which should be enough to kill the engine. Down they go.
The Monk
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jan 20 2010, 12:32 AM) *
What else would they base it on. Spellcasting applies to how accurate you are with spells and how powerful they are. Like you, I think 8 is enough...


The difficulty of the attempted spell could be represented by a threshold similar to the object resistance thresholds.

If the GM takes this route and makes the threshold say four, which isn't unreasonable, the mage would've gotten only four net hits, the resulting barrier would be far less imposing.
pbangarth
QUOTE (The Monk @ Jan 20 2010, 10:58 AM) *
The difficulty of the attempted spell could be represented by a threshold similar to the object resistance thresholds.

If the GM takes this route and makes the threshold say four, which isn't unreasonable, the mage would've gotten only four net hits, the resulting barrier would be far less imposing.


I agree. In fact, if the caster is aiming for the rotors specifically, then some form of called shot is in play, and should be accounted for.
The Monk
Also remember that the barrier is dissolved the moment it is penetrated. It's not like hitting a concrete wall where you have to deal with the whole weight of it along with all the chunks and debris.
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