Heya,

Was around 3rd ED and finally embraced 4th. Not so bad overall.
Still, some things puzzle me.

1. Machineguns. They have almost the same damage code as assault rifles, little bit more AP. In 3rd Edition they were deadly, having D code, like 15D. What is point of them?
2. The same goes for assault cannons. Only good is Gauss rifle. Now troll most likely will survive shot from Panther cannon, which is mounted on tanks.
3. Now minuses of having Armor 20 on your car? I rules handling and speed -1, and much bigger fuel spending. Now they can drive from gas station to gas station only, till they put in extra gas tanks.
4. Still confused at cybercombat, but well, slowly getting through.

Okay, I hope that all this was not too boring.

Vehicle weaponry is covered in Arsenal p 124. They include things like a 17P -8 AP Heavy Cannon (tank mounted), if you feel the need to have higher damage vehicular weapons. It has been my experience, though, that every single bit of damage/AP helps. A spirit that normally would shrug off damage from an Assault Rifle due to Immunity to Normal Weapons might be damaged by a Heavy Machine Gun. Sniper Rifles may do similar damage/AP as Assault Cannons, but Assault Cannons don't suffer from precision loss when jostled around (p 319 SR4A).

As for Armor Penalties, Arsenal Errata for pp 132-133:
“When either of the Armor totals exceeds the vehicle’s Body, reduce the vehicle’s Acceleration and Speed by 20% (round up).”

It's also easier for the cops/corps to put an APB out for "A heavily armored sedan" than just a "sedan of X make/X model".

Also take into account the rules for autofire...and the deadliness that ensues.

Thanks all, makes sense those -20%. I imposed -10% as did not know all about errata. But I do have 3rd or 4th printing of Arsenal. Hmm.

No no, what I mean. Average combat, 5 goons are charging in.
Guy with assault rifle will shoot one short and one long burst, or two short bursts. Generally two dead people, unless some high grade military armor.

For machinegun full auto you need complex action, so just one full auto. You can hit two targets at once though, even if -2 dice penalty. So effectiveness is the same, just noisy and cumbersome and chances of killing are lower, as you have to use more recoil compensation etc.

Assault cannons are SS, so just one dead person/round, even if dead as guaranteed.
And I am not talking about taking TirNaNog team head-on head, we have quite lower level of encounters, and not so experienced players. Still, ramping up threat level slowly and making hints that they need to beef up with weapons/armor.

you may be misunderstanding some rules here:
FA includes short three-round bursts (Simple Action), long six-round bursts (Simple Action as well) and full ten-round bursts (Complex Action).
At least fluff-wise a machine gun's recoil can be compensated fully more easily than an assault rifle's. An AR in a gyrostabilization unit would just look stupid. On the other hand a HMG with Gas-Vent 3, underbarrel weight and personalized grip/electronic firing in a gyromount can be fired without any modifiers while running. Even aside from the better penetration, longer range and in case of HMGs higher damage this makes machine guns very deadly.

@Single Shot Assault cannons: With the rules in Arsenal you can get them to FA

How can I make them into SA or FA? That would make significantly more useful and I could agree on usefulness.

I do understand about different FA.
My point is that ten-bullet burst is not that much more effective than short and long burst.
Two long bursts can't be shot in the same phase, I remember.
Against average targets, mind you, Professional 3-4 rating, as average Shadowrunner will have at least 15 dice to throw

Again I see how they become better the more armored/cybered enemy is.

Look at Fire Selection change in Arsenal p. 151

10 Bullets are not much more effective than 9(3+6).

True, unless you mod the weapon for High Velocity ammunition.
For soaking yes, but those 14(since most weapons have at least -1 AP) dice normally mean 4.7 hits. With minimum damage (Full narrow burst from an AR) of 16(6 Base+9 narrow burst+1 net hit) you will still kill him. How many people do you want to kill in one IP? The average street sam still has two or three left.

How can I make them into SA or FA? That would make significantly more useful and I could agree on usefulness.

With the Arsenal and theModification Rules

My point is that ten-bullet burst is not that much more effective than short and long burst.
Full Auto Fire is Deadly (15-18 K Damage)

as average Shadowrunner will have at least 15 dice to throw
In my Experience :
Average Runner have 10 Dice (+ Smart / - Situation Mods )

With a dance that is a little too late
Medicineman

You can hit up to three (have to be close together), and I don't think the -2 penalty applies here (that's only for changing targets between bursts in semi-auto or burst fire mode; the full auto burst has the disadvantage of requiring the targets to be close together instead... it's really just a game mechanical splitup into short bursts to simulate a single full auto burst sprayed on the target area, IMHO).

Bye
Thanee

Dakka Dakka, much thanks for your help. Did not know about high velocity ammunition also. My players are not much into different ammo, couple use Ex ammo and others Gel rounds.

Medicineman - in your field of expertise 12 would be minimum. Hacker - Hacking 6 + software 6, and so on.
With weapons higher, due to smartlinks, implants and specializations. So 15 is pretty common and easy to reach.

I recently made character with 21 dice for shooting things, using basic book only. Could have gotten to 30 probably, if some highly restrictive gear would be used. But I dislike so specialised characters without any depth and additional skills, so it was more of theoretical training.
Not so specialised in field would have 6-8, like weapons specialist picking up some demolitions or armorer skill.

Thanee - my reading and understanding was different, you could hit additional target within 1 meter, so yes, quite limited in that way. And only one, unless some changes in errata?

Now with modification rules I can see Trolls choosing heavy machineguns or assault cannons.
Another use could be suppressive fire, where machineguns can excel.

Hacker - Hacking 6 + software 6, and so on.
With weapons higher, due to smartlinks, implants and specializations. So 15 is pretty common and easy to reach.
but thats not Average,thats above-average

I recently made character with 21 dice for shooting things, using basic book only
Quite possible but thats highclass and not average
The average Runner has an Attribute of 5-7 and a Skill of 3-4 (maybe a Reflexrecorder,maybe Specialisation) for about 8-12/14 Dice.
So for Me 10(12) Dice is average

with an above-average Dance
Medicineman

My main point was that for Shadowrunners 12-15 dice will be average.
NPCs have lower standards, and average hacker will have 6 dice (3+3), good will have 8(4+4) and exceptional will have 10-12.

My gripe with skills description in Shadowrun is that 6 is reserved for "best in the world", while this barrier is certainly breakable with couple of positive qualities.

Then again, average Shadowrunner can take on 2-3 people with Professional 4 rating and survive.
Lower levels are just "mooks" for killing in bunches.

The reason to use an LMG is this: Belt-feed. For a vehicle (i.e. a drone), belt-fed weapons have access to their ammunition bin. Those contain 250 or more rounds of ammunition. Weapons with mags just get their normal mag capacity - which is insufficient for a drone.

Just to make myself clear, HV is a modification for SMGs and ARs. While it makes sense to require different ammunition this is not the case by RAW. (Arsenal p. 26, 152)

Oh, and wait til your players discover SnS.

There are many topics in the archives that go into this very problem in depth... however, if you use the descriptives for relevant skill levels, you will find that the characters will work better in the fluff of the game world and you will not have characters with 20+ dice pools as they will be able to diversify fairly well...

The average that I have seen is also in the 10-12 Range most of the time, with a few somewhat specialized characters having a base of up to 15, though this is a lot rarer at our table...

Yes, you can start with a character in the hight teens to low 20's in his specialty (andd even higher in a lot of cases), but I contend that it will be a better game if you follow the suggestions in the books in regards to Skill Level competencies...

From My Own expereince playing SR4 over the years...I have yet to have any significant issues (I do tend to fail from time to time on skill checks, though it is rare except in contested social rolls; Combat has it's own quirks of course) in any of the areas my character uses (He is primarily a hacker, at almost 250 Karma Even) and I have a Single Skill at 5 (Electronic Warefare) and a Single Skill at 4 (Unarmed COmbat) and the majority of my remaining skills at 2 or 3, with a few 1's... Stat wise: 9 Augmented Reaction, Agility 7 and everything else 3 or 4... almost all of my skills are specialized into something, and I have no intact Groups...

• Base DP for Firearms is 10 (12 with Specialties) and 14 with Smartlink (17 with Tacnet)
• For Hacking: Ranges from 9 to 11 plus Specialties depending upon the skill required...
• and for infiltration rolls 9 (11) plus Tacnet bonuses...
• Perception is Base 12 and can scale to 18 with mods, Minus Penalties of course...

These have all worked out well for me in the past, and I have a pretty deep and wide character otherwise...

Your experience may vary, of course, but I do not have any exceptional skill levels (We adhere heavily to the Fluff of the Descriptives, and I have an elite Level Electronic Warefare Skill, most of the rest being either Professional or lower) and have only two fairly exceptional stats (the 7 and 9)... many on Dumpshock would say that I am not really competent with those numbers, but I would heavily disagree...

Sorry if I rambled... I typically crusade for the skill fluff adherence and am somewhat passionate about it... so take it for what it is worth...

Keep the Faith

Just to clarify, a Panther cannon is not actually mounted on tanks. It's technically man-portable. A real tank cannon would cause a lot more damage, as was said above.