Greetings. I was thinking last night on the concept of a Shadowrun Critical Hit system.

A few months ago my former AD&D3e DM, who had over 20 years experience in the business was talking to the group about this game where getting hit really meant something. Hit in the leg means loss of that leg's function.

Is this something that could be worked into Shadowrun?

I don't really like the fact that getting shot with a shotgun won't do more than cause you to say "ouch" and deal with some TN +'s.

Specifically I was thinking about called shots with such a weapon...I mean if you get shot in the arm at close range with a shotgun, that arm is GONE.

I got to thinking that maybe Shadowrun's combat could be a bit more realistic...

The problem is I don't really know what to do or where to start.

I was thinking some sort of chart system where you roll a dice according to the level of damage you dealt: maybe 1 for L, 2 for M, 4 for S, and 8 for D.

You'd then have to beat their armor or something. Roll higher than their armor and you might score a critical.

Now the person who was shot needs to make a test against the modified power of the attack, that is Minus armor, spell, etc effects. If they fail to achieve X amount of successes they'd roll on another table for a critical effect.

1 might mean losing the limb, 2 might mean shattered but attached, 3 a broken bone, 4 a fracture, 5 a sprain, and 6 no appreciable effect.

Just a crude concept at the moment. Is this something that the rest of you feel would be of some use? Maybe make the gritty world of the 2060's hit home a bit more? Might make that Light pistol something to be wary of, or what have you.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Rotten fruit to be thrown at my head?

Personally it sounds like it'll take too much to implement.

I just have to ask, what's wrong with the stress system, wounds effects, mandatory medical care (for a failed body check after a MOD+ wound)?

I haven't read those for a while, but I don't really remember anything being wrong with them.

As for being too much to implement, I don't really think it'd be that hard. Simple formula for determining TNs to resist, etc.

I mean I've seen the Point system and the BeCKs Karma system...and they seem like a lot more work than this.

Like I said, just a thought I had. Probably a stupid one at that.

I would say that the "critical hit" system is already in place.

You roll really really well, (6 successes, perhaps) and you just did deadly damage with your .22 holdout. That is the feeling I have gotten from all the other critical systems I have seen in other games.

If you wish to make the built-in "critical hit" system in SR feel even more like a D&D critical hit thingie, give people extra successes when they roll 6 more than the TN. So if you've got Pistols 2, CP 2 and the TN is 2, you could still get 6 or, if you're extremely lucky, even up to 10 successes.

When i Gm i usually wing critical hits, why bog down the combat with more dice rolls than needed. Thats what a good gm does is make the situation believable by good description. When my players make called shots i take that into effect in my head and most of my players are good with acting so if i tell them they take a shot to the arm they role play that. It always helps to have a good group of players. But in my opinion critical tables are just more randomness, there is no way to acurately model fiirefights to an RPG. there are too many variables, too much chaos. Its best to do like hollywood does and just make gun fights kick ass and cool. Thats just my suggestion take it or leave it.

Just whip up a little hit location table. They take serious damage to a an arm or leg, you could just impose extra TN penalties when using those limbs. Take a deadly to the leg? The leg could be blown off by a shotgun or completely shattered by a melee blow or lucky bullet strike.

i don't think you need to have any sort of system for it. The mechanics are already built into Shadowrun as it is and as others have pointed out. My group tends to lean towards what D.Generate said as far as the Hollywood style. We usually run a very cinematic campaign. It's fun and loose and everyone enjoys it.

If you want something more gritty just whip up a few tables to make some dice rolls on to consult and there you go.

I figure that since this is house rule stuff, you can take it or leave it.

For new people who aren't used to dealing with wounds to limbs and the like, or for people who simply don't stop to think (PCs and GMs alike) it gives them a way to start incorporating it.

Got shot in the ass? Well now you have to deal with being unable to walk properly. Got shot in the arm? Better hope you can write with the other one and fire a gun accurately.

Besides it might lend a bit more interest in what happens in combat. Might also make players who don't like GM interference happier since they'd have some degree of control. Same goes for GMs who don't like to interfere with their players or are simply feeling lazy.

Speaking of damage, I'd like a Full-Body damage monitor to replace the simple 10 boxes. I was thinking of making my own, and having a special system to go with it. Something where there would be an overall damage and then damage by part. Damage to the torso would go directly to the overall damage, damage to the head would be multiplied by two and then sent to the overal damage, and then damage to limbs would be divided (by a currently undecided amount) and sent to the overall damage monitor. If I ever actually get around to making and using this, and it works well at all, I'll post it up somewhere for the world to see . For a critical hit in this system, every time a hit landed, 1d6 is rolled, and upon a result of one (a higher range of numbers, up to 3, could be used for higher severity wounds) , 2d6 are rolled for a random damage table for the target area (so a hit to the torso could go anywhere from broken rib to punctured heart).

So anyway, if I ever figure this out, I'll make sure to post it here. Good luck with other damage ventures in the meantime

Raygun has hit location rules on his web, and while I don't use them (too many variables) they seem pretty good.

Update on that system I was thinking about. I've got the graphics finished, and now I have to create the random damage tables and rules before the run I've got setup tomorrow (well technically later today, since it's about 2 AM). If all goes well then sometime Saturday the rules will be ironed out and I'll be ready to post the complete package here

I agree with DG; the hit location should be up to GM descripion. Random tables just bug me, somehow, and they slow the game down.

For example, random tables tend to go like this: "The .22 hold-out hits you. Let me check Table B-22... ok, we need to roll 3d6 and divide it by the caliber, and then add +2 for it being EX, which means I need to roll on subtable 42-X... ok, so you take a shot to the upper left arm. Add an additional +1 TN to all actions with that arm."

And description tends to go like this: "You don't even see the gun until the muzzle-flash goes off. You feel a brief burst of pain, then your left arm goes numb. Mark off a Light wound, and remember your modifiers."

only petty TN modifiers? when a moderate wound alters all TNs from 4 to 6 (between 2 and 3 times harder to get) I think that's pretty substantial. Keep in mind that when you are wounded your body is probably gonna start pumping fun little chemicals into your body which will boost your abilities a fair bit, canceling out a fair portion of the effects of the pain and physical disabilities, so it's not like "I got shot in the arm with a .22 and it hurt a lot and I cried-ed in the corner for a while" so much like "I got shot in the arm with a .22 and it hurt a lot until my body started pumping endorphins into my system and I forgot about the injury since I was concentrating on not getting shot any more by running for my life/kicking the crap out of whoever shot me."

I've had a fairly active life and had my share of wounds back in the day when I played a lot of sports, and I've done some of my best stuff while suffering from what in SR would be considered a light wound because I just plain forgot about it and it disapeared for a little while. I think what you are talking about is hyper-realism, something practiced by people who don't have much experience with an area and think it's much worse than it really is. In SR, the person that deals the first blow is already at a huge advantage and will probably win the confrontation. I think it's best to atleast give the underdog a fighting chance than to say "you have been shot in the arm with a .22. You can't use your arm anymore and drop your pistol."

[/rant]

Of course, I am assuming that you plan on making the system more lethal, since you called it a critical hit system, although from the post it looks like you just want the hit placement system Raygun has on his site which someone put up a link for.

So tell me Cursedsoul, is there anything you do like about Shadowrun canon?

Having run the game for almost 15 years, I feel I can safely say that combat is quite lethal enough without even more modifiers thrown in.

The concept is pretty neat. The system itself is rather neat.

Its playable as is, but like all things can use improvement.

My main gripe it the people who wrote it, wrote it while on crack. That's all.

I for one am not a "what the hell, let's play!" kind of player. I tend to get WAY to into it to simply say that and run with it. Hence, just like most people who pour their heart and soul into what they do, I gripe, bitch, moan, and groan about it being imperfect.

Personally I think Shadowrun's weaponry should've had a bit more added to it in the main book, and in the CC. Specifically rifles, followed by Shotguns, followed by melee. Melee can slide with rough estimates since technically ANYTHING is a melee weapon...so all that REALLY needs to be done is a bit of tinkering with power or damage level.

Rifles got screwed and I don't like the fact having only a few mostly crappy shotguns to choose from (of course we're assuming non-ganger level SR, at which point the "crappy" SGs are quite nice).

I'm not even going to try to decipher the logic behind their cyberware prices and essence costs (though the essence cost, while a bit high, is reasonable considering what CW IS)

What I like about SR is the fact that it seems easy to modify it.

Also, what I like about SR is that its more close to home than other games I've heard of and played (which is admittingly only a scant few). Hence I believe it easier on the GM and PCs in terms of answering the all important "okay...what's the world like?" with
"Oh, society going down the crapper and all that fun stuff"

I hope that makes at least some semblance of sense Fortune. Probably doesn't like most things that come from me, but that's the price I pay.

Don't get me wrong. I also have a few house rules that compliment my game. It's just that I've seen you post your unhappiness about almost every aspect of Shadowrun canon, and was curious as to what you actually liked about the game.

As I said, the lethality level of Shadowrun, at least in my opinion, is quite high enough as it is. I don't believe that making the game even more lethal is necessary.

That being said, you are free to do what you like in your games.

I wish I had a game to play. As is the heathens in the city where I live don't play P&P gaming, and I don't have a car with which to go anywhere, and if I did I would not have a clue as to where to go.

Not sure where to go for online games. The games here tend to phase out of existence due to players dying off/losing interest/dying and thus losing interest. I'm still willing to try them since at this point its all I've got...

I swear at the rate I'm going I'll never REALLY learn how to RP. I'm hoping whatever Medical College I attend will have some losers like me that I can play with.

(Edited): I moved this post to my thread, located here, so it wouldn't seem like I invaded your thread

Critical hits? Isn't that just like staging the damage up?

Smart ass.

And no, its not the same. I shoot you in the hand with a shotgun (I like them as examples because their effect is fairly obvious). You take blah blah for damage, but still retain full use and function of said hand under the current system.

With a "critical hit" your hand is now a splatter on the wall/floor and you are SOL if you can't use your weapons with the other hand.

That's the effect I want.

While I can appreciate the effort that Voltage put into that hit chart, I have to ask if it's manageable. This is not a criticism of the system; I'm actually curious as to its viability. Does it slow things down? I find that the SR system is a tad choppy as is.

P.S.: I like the idea, I really do. The abstraction of damage has always bothered me a little.

For Crits I use the ones from "10 Million Ways to Die" from Iron Crown Enterprises (the guys who do RoleMaster). There are rules to incorperate thier standard combat tables into shadowrun, and though they work nicely they do slow combat down some. So, more often then not we just have rule that every stagging of damage up is the next level of crit (2 successes = A, 4 successes = B, and so on).

Its good Role-playing, but not outlined in the rules. At least not specifically anyways.

I've never read anything in the BBB, CC, or M&M dealing with getting shot and losing limbs on the fly. I've read about replacing limbs with cyber replacements, and about surgery where the surgeon can screw up.

The closest that the books come to directly losing a limb is deadly wounds.

Can you prove to me otherwise? I'm not saying I disagree with that line of thinking or anything, except for the "can be done under the current system" which really doesn't mean all that much considering how deficient the canon system is in many MANY places.

Like I said this would give us a system to do what you just tossed out. Like I also said, this would be for people who don't think of such things normally like good RP'ers should, Good GMs impose, and Good PCs grumble about because now their plans for the weekend are just a wee bit screwed.

Cursed, that's what I wanted to know. The whole two people in my thread that replied told me that you can do the same as I did using normal rules, but I have yet to figure out a real system that's printed in any of the books

And Velocity, I used the chart in my last game and while there wasn't a lot of combat, it isn't much harder to shade in a few extra boxes and figure out if the player can still walk, run, and shoot

Shotgun to the hand causing a serious wound… causes the following wound effects (3+ wound effects):

Overall Effect:
1. Hand has been removed.
2. Severe bleeding will occur unless one of the following happens: magically healed, successful biotech skill used, healing drugs (nano or magical drugs), failing all of that use of a tourniquet (will cause more damage to limb).

Wound Effect:
1. Hand based 'ware is temporarily offline, if not destroyed (SGL, thermal sense, etc).
2. Said hand is offline, might be reattached, rebuilt, replaced (as said you'll have to pick it up and take it with you).
3. Character has 1+ point of stress to BOD attribute for trauma.

Overall notes:
1. Since hand has been removed standard medical healing will not fix said wound back to normal. Though healing will remove damage boxes and fix the bleeding issue.
2. Roll for needed medical care, character may not be able to replace said hand, or for that matter may not want to (magically active).

You guys need to read up on the section of the rules dealing with wound effects. Wound effects are pretty much any damage that does more than just a "box" of damage. The below list is an example of possible wound effects (no it's not all inclusive):

Stress points to attributes
ie Bobby was never the same after that shot to the lung, he always got winded easier (BOD)
ie Tony was never up to par after he injured his back (QUI)

Stress points to limbs:
Every once in while my trick knee gives out on me.
Every since that one accident dislocated my shoulder, it goes out when I push it too hard

Massive trauma:
Massive trauma can be listed as a wound effect (or in this case more than one wound effect). First figure out what the trauma level is (wound level), where it's logical to apply it (one shot from a pistol won't damage an eye and your foot), how much it's going to stress or hinder the body (number of wound effects). Once you figure this out, apply it.

Character takes a moderate wound from a heavy pistol. After rolling the character comes up with 2 wound effects. So it's a moderate wound from a pistol to the left leg with 2 wound effects. You can either review the chart with ideas or make up your own. What happens when you hurt your leg? You limp right? You also have less weight to carry. Etc. In this case I'm being generous and apply –1 QUI for running and –1 STR. Both effects are temporary until healed.

Character takes a serious wound with 3 wound effects, same situation above. Character has taken a shot to the knee. With repair, replacement or cyber enhancement the leg won't ever work correctly again. The wound effects are as follows:
1. Limb now has 2 points of stress, apply to QUI and STR for use of limb
2. Apply 1 wound effect to 'ware in the leg.

Alternately the character can also have mangled ankle or foot. Same aspect as above, but the option to rebuild is pretty much out.

Which book is this stuff in? It has been literally a year since I've read the SR3e rules thoroughly.

I think it's hidden in Man and Machine.

"Wound Effects" is page 126.

Generally, I don't like non-standard (i.e. home) rules, they don't usually solve the problem they are designed to fix or if they do they create another one. Critical Hit System equals slowing down the game as a gm invariably has to pull out a chart or some arcane reference...

So here's a simple way to solve this if it does become critical to know where a character or NPC has been hit in a fire fight, and it should only really matter if the wound itself caused Serious or greater damage.

GM asks player to roll 1d6 (or does it him/herself for an NPC)
Player reports result

1 = Right Arm
2 = Left Arm
3 = Left Leg
4 = Right Leg
5 = Torso
6 = Torso


And that's it, resolve any special effects that need to be arbitrated...

Notes: Yes, I didn't include head. If you're going to geek a player with a head shot have the common courtesy to make it a called shot with the relavent modifiers. No, this chart isn't very realistic in terms of probability and body mass etc... But this is an RPG. If you want to know what a bullet would effect in the human body get a copy of Gray's Anatomy.

Thanks Herald. I remember reading that before.

That's not quite what I was aiming for. It seems to be a simplified type of system I was going to try for.

It still doesn't cover "Your hand/foot/torso/left testicle is now out of commission" type of damage, just attribute stuff.

So you've still yet to prove to me that losing hands/feet/whatever on the spot as a result of a shot is canon SR3. It maks perfect logical sense, but SR3 isn't really known for any of that in its rules.

So I stand by my "its good roleplaying and should be done that way" statement.