Ok, to keep it short, I've been always annoyed by the fact that SR combat spells are unbalanced. Stun spells are overpowered, and elemental spells are nothing but special effects (unless the GM is very generous on the secondary effects). Even the best elemental effects (sound, smoke, fire, electricity) are less effective than a regular stunbolt/stunball/clout/blast; and of course who would ever chose pathetic light (-1 glare modifier) over armor-ignoring and nausea wrecking sound (all have the same +2 drain modifier)?

I heard that the rules were that way since the 1st editions. No idea why they haven't been fixed three editions later, but as a big fan of the books, universe and so on I wanted to have a SR where it makes sense to have elite fireball throwing mages (because in the rules as it is, any "elementalist" is going to be quickly outclassed by the damage of the stun specialist, and outlasted (due to drain he is taking to deal his pitful damage).

So, without further due, I present to you:

My extensive analysis of combat spells, why they are currently unbalanced, and - if you want to stick to canon rules - which few spells are worth taking (don't blame me for munchkinism - that's how the rules are set up...)

Also, I present the rebalanced elemental effects and spells proposal. I am not currently playing SR, so I cannot test them in practice, but some numbers I run suggest this should be more balanced (as in - stun spells were nerfed, and elemental ones, powered up).

Comments appreciated.

And of course, I acknowledge all the legal rights rest with SR copyright owners and wave all possible secondary copyrights (so if you want to feel inspired by my work, feel free to do so).

PS. Links to files included in text...

Whoa... worked long on that all? I am still reading it but here are some thoughts:

1. You have Vehicles/Drones generating resistence against spells. This is not so. IF the Magician cracks the threshold on the drone. (Most likely about 4-6) his spell will do FULL damage unresistet. The only thing body is good for is for more hitpoints... i mean boxes

2. I in my game use the optional rule of "Raise the drain of direct combat spells by the NET HITS used to enhance the damage" Magicians still make one-hit takedowns, but it is more likely they at least get a minimal drain. this takes them in line with the drain of the elemental spells a bit, which still have to get through more armor-dice and such, but have other advantages (indirect fire, intimidation-value, secondary effects, effects on non-living things and surroundings)

3. While stun-spells are slightly better in drain, don't forget that there are some people out there, which can funtion while fully stunned (Pain-editor) Also others can be "reactivated" very easily by a stim-patch or internal means (Nano-medikit, drugs). A "Make-Dead" spell is a tiny bit more effective in the long run.

I agree that magicians sometimes have the upper hand in terms of game-balance. I myself have difficulties finding foes and situations where the whole team isn't finding itself outclassed by my one magician and his spirits. (GOD I HATE those spirits.. THEY are overpowered.)

I rather like your list and suggested rebalancing. Stunspells are way too powerful and without any reason. Not only can stunned targets be interrogated but your stuntrack runs out first anyway because of stick n shock combined with high armor making most guns do stun damage instead of physical.

Sound damage is still too poweful though, an Adept with sound as elemental strike will instant-disable anyone he touches

Also himself (and surrounding people?) Nah, ok lets say its mostly directed and does no harm to the adept BUT: It will alert anyone in the area... and beyond to his presence. I mean, don't get me wrong, punching someone in the face with a sonic shockwave is f------ awesome... but... has its drawbacks.

Metal sucks a bit though... ice isn't that good either.

I really like what you are doing with the indirect elemental spells, but there I have some issues with some of your assumptions.

Stun != Physical
The vehicle rules (which drones fall under) explicitly state an immunity to stun damage.
Which means that punch and stun bolt instead of being super effective are useless in that situation.
I will give you page ref when I able to get to a book. I am not certain that spirits are effected either.
Physical Damage on the other hand is always effective (destructive).
Granted Stun does have more versatility in general than stun, they are not wholly equivalent.

more later when I have time.

Spirits have stun tracks and are affected by stun just like anyone else. They just have a hardened-armor like ability to ignore any damage (from weapons) that doesn't break their armor.

Edit: Also, yes, drones and vehicles and inanimate objects in general can't be affected by stun damage of any kind at all.

Thanks for the early replies; I've incorporated them into a revised document (already on Google Docs, gotta love how easy they are to update). Long story short, I've revised my opinion of Powerbolt (not so useless) and Clout (yes, useless). Now, on to detailed replies:



A few hours, I guess... didn't keep track, and I started this project over a year ago



Could you give me the page number with the discussion of that threshold? The exact numbers are very important; I was assuming that inanimate objects get to resist with their body. Treshold of 4 equals body of 16, so that means that drones are much more difficult to destroy with spells (Powerbolt, Wrecs) than I thought. This may also increase the usability of the elemental spells, making them actually useful (but only against drones and vehicles). That said, you still need to overcast and take phys damage to deal good amount of damage to the drones, so unless you need to kill it RIGHT NOW, safe (no overcast) Power/Wrecking it over a few turns (till you succeed on that threshold check) is a way to go.



I always knew stunbolt/ball cannot affect vehicles; I guess I got confused by Clout/Blast description. I've corrected this in the doc.

And I found the rule: SR p. 158 indeed states (Condition Monitor) that "Vehicles do not suffer from Stun damage." That does indeed mean that the Wreck spells have to be based on Powerbolt.

For the record, Electricity Damage, p.154 specifically addresses that Vehicles/Drones take no damage, but may cease to function. Unfortunately, the chances of that happening are very slim (I correct a tiny error in my calculations, but with the Tester getting the average 4 successes, he has a 15% chance of shutting down Steel Lynx, and 0.5% for the Bulldog Step-Van ).



Interesting, I can see how that would balance them. Wouldn't that result in general nerfing of Combat Spells? You write later that in your game spirits are overpowered - perhaps this is because they spells no longer are?



Umm, I vaguely recall the Pain-editor... book and page number would be much appreciate so I can look into it



Yaah, anybody who has seen an adventure derailed by a mage stunballing an entire room of NPCs does know that spells are overpowered

I would agree with you before I was corrected on the "stun deals no damage to vehicles/drones" misconception. In the current situation, I no longer thing Sound is THAT overpowered; that said in your selection of elemental spells it is still one of two you should take - Sound for metahumans, something else (Fire?) for vehicles/drones (using elementals on spirits is a waste due to their dodge values). That said, you are still better of Stun/Powerbolting metahumans.



I was actually looking into that - I recall how dangerous hardened armor spirits were. But looking at SR4:294-295, I am not seeing Hardened Armor as a power of any spirit (plus - they don't seem to have an Armor attribute at all!). You get Armor attribute only from gear...unless I am missing something Even the fragging dragons on SR:296-297 seem to have no armor (although they have innate power Hardened Armor . And f my reading of Hardened Armor rules are correct, its value is also the armor value of a crit; and most crits have no armor - and that includes spirits...

Spirits have "Immunity to Normal Weapons" as part of the Materialization power.
ItNW is the source of their hardened armor, equal to Fx2.

Immunity to normal weapons works like hardened armor equal to 2xF of the spirit. It doesn't matter any for spells at all though, but it might be why you thought that they don't have a stun track. They do, it just doesn't get touched much because most attacks either break the armor and do P damage or get absorbed completely.

Forgive me the double posting.

For cold you could add a movement reducing effect due to ice caking on the target or fluids freezing.
Something like a -1 speed per net success (or -1 agi / 2 net successes).
The target can use a complex action to reduce the effect with a success test (body).
(this mirrors the complex action required to extinguish flames from fire)

This could be useful even if a target is too armored to take any damage
(and yeah I have played too many video games).

I was thinking that the cold effect should do something with slowing things down, so great mind think alike

Which page is that "immunity to normal weapons" spirit part at?

Maybe I read it wrong but it would appear you made the physical spells more powerful up to the level of the broken spells rather than weakening the broken spells. Is that correct?

One of the things about secondary or elemental effects that I don't like is that they all have different rules to determine the outcome. Makes it so that every time one is used, the rules have to be looked up.

In our games we use the net successes of the attack opposed by two attributes of the target's (+1/2 impact armor and any applicable upgrades) or armor X2 for objects.

If the target gets equal to or more hits than the net successes of the attack, nothing happens. If not the remaining successes are the number of turns that the secondary effects lasts.

For example:

Electricity is resisted with Body and Willpower. The remaining successes equals the rounds the target is stunned.

Fire is resisted with Agility and Intuition. The remaining successes equals the # of rounds the target is on fire the damage being half of the original damage before Damage Resistance.

Acid is resisted with Body and Agility. The remaining successes equals the amount of additional items that are splashed for half of the original damage before Damage Resistance.

So on and so forth. The point is that they all use the same basic mechanic. That being net successes vs two attributes, the result of which determines the extent of the elemental effect.

I was afraid this may be one interpretation. I probably have a bias for powerful mages. Fortunately, there is a simple solution: just add +x drain to all of my proposed rebalanced spells, all across the board, where x value is proportional to how much you think the current spell power needs to be nerfed



Excellent points. I did not focus on redesigning the elemental effects, as I tried to stay as much within the canon rules as I could. But I think your approach is probably better. Perhaps you could share your full home rules for elemental effects with us?

SR4A, Page 204, Left Column, 1st Full Paragraph from the Top.



Pain Editor... SR4A, Page 341 under Cultured Bioware


Keep the Faith

Thanks, updated the analysis. Looking at the OR, it is much less of an issue than I originally thought, so I am back thinking that versus drones/vehicles, Powerbolt is still the best choice.

Just saying - it seems like magic in SR5 is somewhat close to what I aimed at with this redesign for SR4 (drain values, etc.). :>