I think I know the answers (from reading the rules and posts here) but I would like to verify my interpretation.

For these questions let's use a Force 5 spirit which has 10 points of hardened armor.

1) When determining if a weapon surpasses the immunity to be able to hurt the spirit I add the base weapon damage value with the net hits made by the attack as compared to the hardened armor rating of the F5 spirit . So If Bob shoots an AK (Dv6) with 5 net hits (modified DV 11) he could hurt the F5 spirit?

2) As I read the rules, narrow bursts do NOT add to the damage value to determine if the attack exceeds armor rating for immunity effects. Is this right?

1. Correct

2. Correct, however, if the Base DV does indeed bypass the ITNW, then the Narrow Burst additional damage is added for greater effect.... of course...

Keep the Faith

Both correct.

Also keep in mind that many weapons and ammo types have an AP modifier, as well. If that AK had only had 4 hits, for a DV of 10, it would still have damaged that Force: 5 spirit, since its effective armor would only be 9 due to the -1 AP for the assault rifle. On the other hand, an Ares Viper slivergun, doing 8P damage but having +5 AP, would not damage the same spirit with 5 successes - the damage of 13 would not be enough to penetrate the spirit's effective armor of 15.

And don't forget that even when a spirit's Immunity To Normal Weapons is bypassed, it still rolls those dice as armor to resist the damage. A Force 5 Spirit hit with a 7P shotgun, +4 net hits, would roll Body + 10 dice for Immunity to Normal Weapons to resist the damage.

...all assuming that whatever you're shooting out of your gun counts as 'Normal Weapons'. I'm a big fan of the Hellboy/Supernatural/Helsing loadouts, where you see something Weird coming, pop in a clip of blessed silver hollowpoints and go to town. Mystic ammo also seems cooler to me then defaulting to Stick-n-Shock, the RAW version of the same thing. As always, check with your GM to see what is allowed.

Also, things like killing hands and weapon foci completely bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons.

For the purposes of Immunity to Normal Weapons, bullets that are made of a compound (or coated with a compound) that is an Allergen for the creature will bypass it. Thus, insecticide versus Insect Spirits and the like. Blessed silver Hollowpoints will do jack and squat against most things with Immunity to Normal Weapons, however.

Please use the search function. Not a week goes by (seriously, not one) where questions of Immunity to Normal Weapons does NOT come up.

- J.

I just wish they listed Immunity to Normal Weapons in the stat block for spirits. I know they have it, but in training a new GM I had trouble immediately recalling where I knew that from. I've found it mentioned under the spirits in combat section in Awakened World but it's strange that such a key ability isn't mentioned along with the other stats and powers. Ditto ally spirits and the set of abilities they get. Had a bit of a run in with a GM when I pointed out that I didn't have to buy the ability for my ally spirit anymore than I had to buy sapience. It's a lot of extra text, but even a mention in Friends and Foes would be nice.

This should cover it.

Ah, thank you. In a game this complex you figure you understand how an ability works.

How long until the core books get published in AR? I want a rules HUD so I don't have to think anymore.

Catalyst never give release dates.

OtakuSensei--PDF versions of the rulebooks are great for quick references. Open the file and type what you are looking for in the Search field. Alternatively, if you don't know what book something was in, you can open the Full Search, type the word in, and Acrobat can search all of your PDFs and create an indexed list of books and page numbers.

Best I can offer, until optical links become mainstream.

I'm already glued to my netbook during sessions to the point where everyone expects me to answer any rules calls. Got my characters up on Google Docs and so my GM has only to check my webpage for character sheet updates. I just see the mainstream starting to notice AR and think "Get on with it!"

Dungeons and Dragons is much more complex than this game. Where this game has one core rulebook, D&D has three that are equal (or slightly larger) size that are required for basic gameplay. That was 3.5, 4th ed is even more outrageous.

On behalf of myself and everyone else who thought "Hey, I'm gonna play a Rigger!": Pbbbbbbbbbbth.

I had a rant about it, but I think it deserves its own thread. For the most part, I'm very happy with the SR4A core book; the expansion books add some real flavor, but nearly all of the meat is in the core book.

I was having a good yarn to a work colleague (who keeps claiming he is a roleplayer whislt extoling the virtues of 4E). Seriously, I nearly got aggro about it.

Shadowrun vs D&D 4E is not even a competition. You are not even comparing role playing games. You're comparing a roleplaying game to a table top minatures game. We are not even talking the same thing.

- J.

I absolutely, positively, agree with you 100%. Having played DnD since 1st Ed I can honestly say 4E is the first version that I just couldn't stand. It isn't even DnD anymore - game mechanics aside - basic background elements haven't even been ported over to the new edition. It's WOW without the graphics.

The below information is off topic.

Shit I've been playing it wrong... Have to tell my players to stop roleplaying then...

Shadowrun is a better game though I have to agree.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I feel compelled to reply.

I've played not just Shadowrun but the old style DMZ boardgame using cardboard cutouts. I've also played a lot of Warhammer 40k. At present we use a whiteboard with magnets to do a layout if players cannot visualise the scene. That's pretty damn close to the mark I'd say.

D&D 3.0 was worriesome about the whole grid thing but we did fine without it, or the minatures. We relied on GM fiat to say which "square" you are in and it worked fine. The problem is now you have a whole game system where the mechanics of every ability works on grids. It doesn't even rely on actual distance for proper units of measurement. You could probably do the extrapolations if you were keen but honestly -- why bother? There are plenty of games out there where real distances are provided, true visualisation is encouraged by using your imagination and not models (that the push you to buy through them), and systems that do not require people to have a monthly budget to continually buy books, minatures and subscribe to online content. Honestly, WotC strike me as drug pushers today.

It's not just D&D 4E, its the entire business model of WotC that I object to. I can accept that these companies run a business, but when it is clear that true commercialisation of the game is what drives them - and not player satisfaction, that is where the game ceases to be fun. They keep churning out sourcebook after sourcebook, with minimal adventures or campaigns. And when they run out of ideas, the release a new edition. This was the business model adopted with 3 -> 3.5 and with 4th they took it two steps too far.

Personally I am really excited about Shadowrun. The content is fresh, the quality of the material is consistently improving, the rules are increasingly optimised over past editions. Its clear to me that Catalyst very much have their fingers on the pulse of the player's fanbase, which is more than what I can say about WotC.

Bottom line:
I can play with minatures, but when the entire game system is completely dependent on visualisation in order to play then it isn't an RPG anymore as far as I'm concerned.

- J.

I don't disagree with you but gamers do buy their products. Opening or closing your wallet is the only "voice" anyone has. Speaking for myself I enjoy playing D&D 4E and I love collecting minis; that's a part of D&D tradition dating back to Chainmail. And the miniature war games that inspired it. However if a vast majority of gamers disagreed with me and the game became more tactically abstract in a subsequent edition in order to meet market demand, it wouldn't break my heart. I'd simply play more Earthdawn or something else for my high fantasy fix.

My first go-round as a Shadowrun GM, I did try to turn the game into a more tactics based experience with miniatures; be they cardboard DMZ-style cutouts or digital icons on a projection screen run with a laptop. In the end, the setup wasn't worth the hassle. And Shadowrun really isn't designed to be played with the kind of ultra-accuracy a die-hard minis enthusiast needs. Now I use a wipeboard with little chits to mark approximate positions. The rest requires GM and player imagination.

I'm not a big fan of WoTC, but I do know that they are the reason my Friendly Local Game Store isn't my Not-So-Friendly Local Empty Storefront. They make enough off of Magic and D&D to keep the doors open. I see it as my duty to guide the children from the "gateway games" into something more substantial. A game of 4th ed is a fun bit of mindlessly mechanical math every once in awhile, but Shadowrun is a completely different beast. The new core book is pretty, the D&D kids buy it, and before you know it we have to turn people away and setup additional play nights for informal Shadowrun games at the store.

Magic is keeping the lights on and D&D is still making money, but I believe Shadowrun is making gamers.

That's what games like D&D have always been. When you say "role-playing game," 90% of people who know what that is (and know you aren't referring to the video variety) are going to assume D&D. Trying to make it anything more than that, trying to wish/cajole/scream it into some sort of pinnacle of gaming perfection (if such a thing is even possible), denying that it's about more than smashing monsters and loot collecting... it's futile.

D&D is the RP market's version of McDonalds. It tastes alright, you can find it anywhere, and there are no surprises. But there comes a time in your adult life when your tastes want to be tested by something a little more thoughtful, challenging or complex in scope than a McNugget.

SR isn't new territory. It's certainly not the duct tape and etched-in-blood-and-tears indie game or completely off-the-wall spoof like Paranoia. It's been around for twenty years and spins from a literary sub-genre that's, well, kind of dead. I think where it's succeeded is that it hasn't abandoned its base and started over from complete scratch, but rather built on new tropes from contemporary near-future science-fiction. It's like a pricey ethnic chain restaurant that started from a family eatery.

I like where this is going, but I'd say that while D&D modules are like Macdonalds (predictable and unsatisfying) and Shadowrun Modules are like fusion food (sometimes brilliant but often a bit of a random hard to work mess), games are like home cooking. D&D is meat and two veg, easy to do well but can be a bit dull, however sometimes you can make your players go "Wow, what did you do with the potatoes?" Shadowrun is like Curry, a lot fancier not to everyone's taste but doing it well is far more rewarding and impressive.

i would say for me the biggest reason i consider D&D 4th to be less of a roleplaying game is the fact that i actually find it almost jarring when it comes time to roleplay. i never really think of the character in terms of "i do <x>" or "i say <y>", it's always in terms of what the character does. now, does this mean that nobody can roleplay with it? of course not. you could roleplay with monopoly if you wanted. i don't think it's because of the miniatures either.

essentially, for me at least, 4th edition D&D is more like a number-crunching exercise where i get to have small-scale skirmishes for fun. i don't really think of it as being D&D even, because notwithstanding some of the names are the same, the way the game plays feels completely different.

Back on topic...

What exactly isn't a normal weapon under SR4 rules? In SR3 (and earlier) immunity to normal weapons was less effective against non-magical energy/elemental damage, meaning that things like flamethrowers, incendiary bullets (not just tracers, something like white phosphorous), and of course the really exotic weapons like lasers and cryogenic sprayers (there was even a "laser axe" at one point). Is this still the case in SR4, or is it stick n shock and magic only to punch immunity?

Yeah, I was never quite sure whether the Crescent laser axe counted as a 'normal' weapon. Especially due to it being specifically developed to fight paranormal critters...

Off topic

Wasn't the laser axe just an axe that had a laser sight? Sort of projected a mark where it was going to hit? I expect a lightsaber shaped axe would have a higher damage code.


Oh, crap, did I just say lightsaber? Shit! I did it again...

Weapons that are not normal are: spells, adepts unarmed strikes with Killing Hands, and Weapon Foci.

Elemental weapons such as Stick and Shock ammo, flamethrowers, lasers, and railguns do have to contend with ItNW, but their AP modifiers generally make it a moot point. One mental image I keep bringing up to my friends is Sauron the Dark Lord coming into the 6th world, doing a spiel about how the world will be covered in a second darkness, and a Lone Star cop popping him a couple times with SnS ammo until he gets disrupted.

Thanks, that actually makes things MUCH easier than it was under SR3 and earlier! The GM used to have to make a ruling for every single weapon.

Simple version: Non-Awakened attacks are "Normal" weapons. This applies to any damaging effect resisted with a Damage Resistance Test. This distinction becomes important, for example, in the case of Toxins, which are a non-awakened damaging effect, but are not resisted with a Damage Resistance Test (using a Toxin Resistance Test instead), and thus are not covered by the immunity. The rules are, unfortunately, somewhat unclear in this area (among many others).

Please note that Immunity effectively provides Hardened Armor, which is in turn affected by Armor Penetration normally (including the halving of most elemental effects), making elemental attacks generally far more effective against creatures with such defenses.


"Not-Normal" weapons include all forms of magical attack, such as Combat Spells (Direct & Indirect), paranormal critter powers, Adept powers (such as Killing Hands - note that Critical Strike in itself does not apply, as it augments your unarmed attack, not alter it like Killing Hands [which also specifies]), and Weapon Focus'.


Edit: More precisely, Toxins are still generally "normal weapons", and would be included in the immunity. However, armor does not assist with the resistance test against toxins, and thus the benefits of Immunity to Normal Weapons do not apply.

Depends on how your GM wants to run the game. If the priest is just an old guy, then the blessed bullets are just bullets. However, if he's a Theurge, maybe from the Order of St. Sylvester, then when he says they're demon-killing bullets they just might be.



I need a clarification on a stupid question, here: Do weapons that bypass ItNW, as discussed above, still treat it as armor? They don't deal with the glancing Hardened Armor rules, but does the ItNW still add to the soak, or is it completely off the board?

For weapons that bypass immunity to normal weapons, it doesn't still count as armor, any more than you would get to roll your armor's fire resistance against an acid attack.

A quick note on toxins - immunity to normal weapons may not work against the toxin itself, but for toxins with an injection vector, it does offer protection against the weapon that is attempting to penetrate their armor. In other words, atropine may work normally, but it will be harder to get it into their bloodstream (or equivalent) with a needle gun. Contact or inhalation vector toxins like nausea gas would work normally.