A player in my group wanted to make a "drone-omancer" inspired by the massive success of the technomancer in the previous adventure combined with how unstoppable possession spirits were he guessed that a technomancer with sprites in his drones ought to be at least quite cool even if we didn't expect it to go anywhere near a Pasteel Humunculus

However, there seem to be some skills and complex forms missing for a Machine Sprite to be able to operate a drone or have I read something completely wrong?

What a drone needs as bare minimum is:

Software:
firewall, analyze, encrypt, tacnet

"Skills"
targeting autosoft, clearsight autosoft, pilot autosoft

(And response/system 6 to run the 6 softwares at the same time without getting degraded, this can be fixed with optimization program options for a regular drone)

It seems the Machine Sprite can take any autosoft as optional power but to be able to fully run a drone it needs to be rating 9 to not be either blind, stationary or unable to fire and they are still unable to be encrypted unless they are the odd node in the network, making multiple drones with registered sprites rather unsecure unless you use the "technomancers and sprites are immune to all hacking, spoofing, electronic warfare and tracking by non-TMs" optional rules (I clearly don't, it's bad enough they are invisible and have three times the dicepool, why make them immune on top of that?).

A steel lynx and dobermann needs two pilots too, don't they? (Since they have both wheels and legs, should need both Anthroform and Ground craft right?)

Or how are sprites meant to use drones, or are they not supposed to? (Other than say fire the cannon with sprite-dicepools through command alone?)

I had a very similar problem lately, see the old threat (starting at post 11): http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29133
Bottom line is that the RAW completely ignore it.

And it does not even require any additional rules to make Sprites/TMs immune to many threats: Spoofing sprite commands and hacking a TM's bionode (which of course has all important devices slaved to it...) is only possible for Resonance entities.

It seems the solution would have to be having two sprites in the Drone, one to drive it around and the other to clear sight + targeting shoot. This asks for quite a lot of tedious re registering rolls....

Leaving the TMs bionode invisible and sprites immune to spoof makes TMs very strong but it only makes sense that they are protected, but those are the only bonuses I allow them. After all, you can't submerge your commlink past response 6 (even 6 requires restricted gear / 1 week extend tests to find that is infeasible for most runners)

Or just let the sprite have the drone autosofts. A level five sprite that can only fly around in a rotodrone but not do much else with it is just wrong.

Ok, I appear to be missing something here. First, sprites can use all of their programs at once regardless of the response of the system they are in. Second why would they need to have level 9 autosofts to use them effectively, I grant that he might not have all of them, but he should be good enough with what he has. A force 2 sprite can pilot with response + pilot, so a rating 2 drone with a force 2 sprite gets 4 dice +handling for pilot tests. Clearsight + sensor rating would be the same, if sensors are rating 2 he gets 4 dice. I use maxed out systems myself, for the drones I have created. I summon a force 4 sprite, I have sensor rating 6, it is rolling 10 dice. Third, who says that a sprite needs to be in control of the drone? He realistically just needs to be in control of the pilot of the drone. The pilot flies the drone, and the sprite commands the pilot, perhaps managing the perception checks as well. So what the Sprite needs, gunnery and command. Any autosofts which are not present in the drone as software, can be given to the sprite as a skill.

I've been following this thread and the one linked to by Sengir (because I'm also struggling with this a lot!) and something has hit me that (I don't think) has been mentioned yet.

AFAICT, autosofts aren't actually necessary for a drone's pilot to do things. Yes, it does say that autosofts are there to give the pilot abilities outside its core programming (like firing that LMG you just stapled to the side of it) but my current interpretation is that this is only necessary for skill checks – i.e. autosofts provide 'skill' ratings which apart from boosting the DP gets around the pilots-can't-default obstacle.

So a pilot program in a Crimson Samurai does know how to maneouvre, but if anything tricky should come up which would need a skill check then it will automatically crash without the Maneouvre autosoft. Likewise it can fire its weapon at a designated point in space because the physical connections and installed drivers make it a trivial task, but actually aiming at a moving target and trying to cause maximum damage would need the Targetting autosoft.

Does this interpretation work?

If you don't agree, then why is there no mention of drones coming with autosofts included?
Who would buy a drone that didn't know how to propel itself in a co-ordinated fashion?
For that matter, what CAN the pilot program do without autosofts if autosofts are the be-all-and-end-all of drone ability? It processes your orders and then, what, just sits there with an embarrassed look on its node?

So I would say that the F5 sprite could indeed be meaningfully limited to the Maneouvre autosoft optional power, but you wouldn't make it so unless you were having a race or something. Likewise, if you're conducting surveillance you'd choose Clearsight and if you're expecting heavy resistance then Targetting's your thing. Any other matters are conducted sans autosoft just like the pilot would on its own.

Or am I talking absolute drek.
Discuss.

Sprites operate drones in 2 modes.Jumped in, or via Remote Control.

See handy chart Common Rigger/Drone Tests. p. 247 SR4A

Use the Jumped In Rigger Dice pool for a Sprite Jumped in.

Use the Remote Controlled Dice Pool for a Spite using Remote Control.

Note that you will quite reasonable have a sprite in the drone, but it will still use Remote Control to pilot the drone in any case.

Autosofts replace skills.

So a Machine Sprite rating 5 would typically do a Command + Autosoft test to perform an action in a drone. e.g. COmmand 5 + Gunnery 5, for 10 dice before any other modifiers.

The same R5 Machine Spirte, if it "Jumped IN" would only get Sensor + Gunnery 5 for the same test.

That depends on how believe sprites control drones. "Believe" is the important word here, since the rules say absolutely nothing about it.

The options seem to be
- Sprite uses its command CF. Most tets are Command + skill, so the sprite will have to default most of the time and several vehicle skills can'tbe defaulted
- Sprite jumps into the drone. See above, plus the problem that it doesn't have a motor cortex to rig with
- Sprite replaces the drone's pilot program and can use existing autosofts, or replace them with its own. We use this one, although it does raise a few fluff questions.
- Sprite replaces the drone's pilot program but can only use its own autosofts. Of course this means that more than two autosofts for a drone is significantly more difficult for a TM than for a "mundane" rigger.


@Aero: Yes, that is how I imagine autosofts to work. If something would not require a test for characters, the pilot should be able to handle it...and of course a rotodrone's pilot should know how to fly.

okay. So. Sprites are intelligent. They have edge, and they can make their own decisions. That alone makes them infinitely more useful than a regular old pilot program, because they can do -anything- in the drone by defaulting, whereas the pilot needs an autosoft to do it.

Second off, the only resonance entities unable to use regular programs are Emerged Animals in running wild. Bastets and the like, and thats because they specifically say so. And a machine sprite can use autosofts, cause its gets some optional ones when the technomancer summons it. Don't forget, there are resonance-based, and not the run-of-the-mill bought autosofts. Machine spirit autosofts can, and do, go above rating 4.

TM summons up a rating 6 machine sprite. Its got analyze, command, maneuver and clearsight 6. He puts it in his steel lynx, which already has defense and targeting 3, and gives the sprite admin access, and elects to start remote controlling it from within its matrix node. I'm pretty sure that means the tank is ready to rock.

Checking SR4a on 167, under Sensors, we find that "When driving a vehicle, a driver may use the Sensor attribute instead of Intuition when making Perception Tests and other intuition linked Success Tests. Drones -always- use the sensor attribute for perception tests." A sprite is not a drone. However, like agents and pilots, it DOES use its pilot rating to substitute from attribute tests. Between its rating 6 and clearsight 6, this drone/sprite combo is rocking out 12 dice on perception tests out of the box, which it can use on Active Sensor targeting to shoot stuff, and thats before you factor in wide bursts.

That is not bad at all.

Kind of.

Can anyone here tell me where it says sprites are not allowed to use autosofts as normal?

That would be option one. Remote control dice pools are Command + Skill, so all the Autosofts are pretty much useless.

You might of course say that autosofts can be used in place of skill ratings, then it's option three or four (because Command and Pilot have the same rating), depending on whether you allow it to use normal autosofts.


@Neraph: I'll just shamelessly copy Jaid's argumentation from the other thread. As mentioned I'd give Sprites normal autosofts, but he has a valid point:
an autosoft program is essentially running on the pilot OS. (that is, a pilot program replaces the operating system. autosofts only run in programs with pilot ratings. therefore an autosoft is designed to operate on a pilot program's OS). a sprite doesn't (or at least, logically shouldn't) have the ability to install and run regular autosofts, just like a technomancer can't buy a rating 6 exploit program and run it from a living node.

There is no reason a technomancer can't run Old Fashioned code. Their biological nodes don't have the storage to keep one, but a technomancer with a datajack ought to be able to load one up just fine. Or a commlink, or even fingernail datachip storage out of arsenal. There is absolutely no reason a TM cannot Run Program like every other entity on the matrix.

Found the page numbers:
RA 239, Complex Forms. "Technomancers don't use programs the way hackers do. (nothing prevents them from picking up a commlink and going to town if they want that "retro" experience, but few do). Instead, they learn how to manipulate the digital nature of the Matrix with Complex Forms, mental algorithms they create to overcome given obstacles."

A machine sprite has complex form autosofts. It can use autosoft software. TM's are backwards compatable with other hardware/software, there is no reason a sprite should be too. Though, now that I think about it, is there any reason you couldn't give a machine sprite the Software autosoft, and have it Thread anything it needs?

While i'm on the subject of vehicles, though, it is worth noting driving a vehicle through VR lets the driver claim a -1 threshold bonus to Vehicle tests. Riggers get it. Pilots get it. So would a machine sprite.

Why bother giving sprites an optional power they can never use? By inference they can use them. So when can they use them if not while operating a device?

Also consider, "In game terms, sprites are very similar to agents (p. 234). Each sprite has a rating that
is equivalent to the Pilot rating of an agent and determines its other Matrix attributes. "

Agents and Pilots are similar, Pilots can use autosofts. So you have the chain from Pilots which can use autosofts, pilots are a specific type of agents, and Sprites can mechanically be treated as agents/pilots.



Jumping in has nothing to do with wiring a cortex in. It's a specific VR Mode, which just happens to have dedicated devices for meatbrains to do it better, but you don't need any of those to "jump in."



- Agents/Pilot/technomancers, and anyone else can use software programs..... why not a Sprite?



Life's rough. Compile a different sprite as needed. When you need the "Iron Chef" whirling knife drone, compile a sprite with the Profession iron Chef autosoft. When you need one to patch up your cuts, compile a sprite with First Aid autosoft. It's just too bad you need to compile a rating 6 sprite to get one with two autosofts. ( I heard once that TM's just suck. This must be why, they can only get whatever skill they can possibly imagine but only get one of them whenever they need.)

It becomes even worse when you realize that some streams - like info savants and sourcerors - can pair up code sprites with machine sprites. Probability Distribution rolls twice the sprites rating vs half the node's response, round up. Consider that a drone is rating 3 by default, 4 if its security, and 5 or even 6 if a rigger is treating their hardware right. Easy-peasy. It may then add(or subtract) up to half its rating, round up, to a matrix action another user action is doing. Like controlling a drone. Factor in sprite Linking and you can get some very effective setups. An EVO Orderly paired with a rating 6 machine sprite, which has Medicine and First Aid is your team's best friend for getting back on their feet, or getting new implants. Check augmentation around 127. Betawear only needs 12 hits.

Fixed it for you. A pilot is simply a specialized Agent.

Don't ask me, I didn't come up with those rules (or lack thereof). Fact is, however, that autosofts are not considered when making Command tests. Command tests are Command rating + skill, so unless the sprite does EW he's limited to defaulting.


It does, not just fluff-wise but also in the rules for AIs:
While a metasapient may reside in a drone, and even use a drone as its home node, it may not “jump into” a drone or other rigged device, as it has no motor cortex with which to interface.
(Runner's Companion)


TMs don't use complex forms and normal progs side by side. My excuse is that CFs and "mundane" autosofts obviously use the same API to talk to the drone, and that API does not care how the autosoft looks inside.


That's why a drone should at least have two autosofts. If that is impossible with an unregistered R5 sprite it's no wonder people are complaining about TMs "Look, I'd really love not to compile those giant sprites all the time, but the rules won't let me" ^^

If you are choosing to gimp your sprites deliberately, then that's your choice.

Metasapient AI are not sprites.

TM can use both software and CF, and in any case, the Sprite autosoft power is a CF.

If you are choosing to skip parts of my posting (where I said that my group allows normal autosofts for sprites), then that's your choice


So? They still don't have a motor cortex.


I've yet to see anybody claim something different

A sprite is not an AI. Here's some food for thought:







(Emphasis Added)

So we can see that Machine Sprites do have an Electronic Warfare skill, and that they are treated in game terms as being agents, complete with a Pilot score. I would assume this to mean that the sprite functions like an agent, and a Machine Sprite is capable of overriding the OS of a drone and running it as a Pilot. As the Pilot program of the drone, it can now use the autosofts the drone is running, as normal (augmented by the optional Complex Form autosofts it may know).

Here's another scenario: You buy a drone, and wipe the OS. Now you compile a machine sprite to run it. Does the drone now work? (I think this is a rhetorical question - it is obvious to me that the intent of sprites was to give technomancers their own really cool specialized agent programs)

Sorry, but I completely fail to see your point...
What does rigging the drone have to do with replacing the pilot program? And what does a sprite's EW skill have to do with that?

Ok. I was referring to the OP about what happens when you put a Machine Sprite in a drone. If you guys have turned it into a discussion of jumping in, that's not my fault.

For question #2:



EDIT: In case you can't figure out what my point was, what I was meaning with all those quotes from the actual rules is that machine sprites are handled as pilots, and as pilots they directly control vehicles, and as pilots they can utilize autosofts independant from the ones they themselves might have the complex forms to replicate.

Given

p. 246 SR4A
"In essence, autosofts provide
drones with specific skills so that they may make the appropriate skill
tests."

And
p. 240
"In game terms, sprites are very similar to agents (p. 234). Each sprite has a rating that
is equivalent to the Pilot rating of an agent and determines its other Matrix attributes."

looking at p. 247, the common rigger/drone tests;

you can treat them as Jumped In Rigger, use that column and use the autosoft as the skill in any test.
Typically response + Autosoft

you can treat them as Autonomous Drone and use the Sprite as the Pilot.
The test is Pilot + Skill|Autosoft, see p. 247 , use the autonomous drone dice pool column. Pilot = Sprite Rating, Autosoft rating which is also the sprite rating.

Or you can have the Sprite Remote Control, and use the remote Controlled Dice pool column, use the Command CF and replace the skills with the autosoft CF.

The Autonomous is probably better, as the Pilot rating will not be limited by the system. Stuff a R5 sprite into a R3 drone, ti still uses 5 for the "pilot" part of the test.

Yes, it doesn't say which columns the sprite uses. Maybe that's because they can use all three modes. Pick whichever works out best for the sprite.

It's not explicit that the autosoft CF can be used that way in all three columns, but there's really no reason why not.

Exactly what I was saying, thank you for the clarification.

Right, if you allow autosofts for all tests in the rigger table the different modes all produce the same dice pools. With the exception of gunnery, which is either rating + sensor or rating + autosoft.



@Neraph: You were specifically replying to my posting, and I specifically excluded Electronic Warfare from the things a sprite can only default on. So again, what is your point?

Ahh, I misread it and thought you were saying the sprite couldn't do Electronics Warfare. My bad.

Just running through making a dronomancer, and I thought of a pretty easy interpretation for letting a drone use standard Autosofts. Rather than comparing Autosofts in the case of a Sprite to Skillsofts in the case of a Biowire, consider them like a Smartlink in comparison to the Technomancer's eyes.

Basically, all we're talking about is a piece of hardware/software which takes data, runs it through specialized algorithms and spits out telemetry data. The Sprite should be able to interpret this telemetry data exactly the same as a Technomancer's eyes can see the display of a standard Smartlink. Really, it's not the composition of a Skillsoft which prohibits a TM from using one in his biowires as much as it is the fact that there is no way for those Skillsofts to interface with a TM's biowires. So, because the Autosoft, still running on the basic pilot, does nothing more than run predictive processes and feed them out as probability sets, the Autosoft is simply feeding it data which the Sprite can innately understand and process.

Sorry to bring that up from a while back... but can some one do a clear recap of what a Machine sprite can or cannot do ?

Good question...we simply let sprites replace the pilot and use autosofts, works and seems to produce the least hassle.

That seems to work best to me.

I'm with Sengir, not that we run a dronomancer. yet.