1-5 reg? 6-10 above average? 11-15 good? 16-20 amazing? 20+ insane? I am asking this because when building characters im not sure what kind of dice pool I should be aiming for... Ideas?

<4 = Poor
4-6 = Proficient (Trained)
7-10 = Skilled
11-15 = Highly Skilled
16+ = "Among the best in the world"

Calculated prior to circumstance / equipment modifiers (such as Smartlink).

Thanks! ^_^ Now my character doesn't seem so weak sauce.

Back to the grind stone!

Dice pools tend to vary by skill - some dice pools cap out around 10-12 because there aren't a lot of modifiers for them, while others can get high relatively easier (it's not difficult to get 18+ dice for a ranged combat skill), but also have a lot of potential negative modifiers. Social skills have the most modifiers of all, to the point that the SR4A rules imposed a cap on them, but a lot of times you don't really need them as high as, say, combat skills.

I would consider a dice pool of 16+ to be hardcore specialist/pro shadowrunner level, but not "best in the world" For any given dice pool, there is a maximum that you can get - and somewhere, some NPC is at that level.

Another thing - you don't want to be as good an the NPCs you will be facing. You want to be better. If you have a 50% chance of success in a fight, your characters will tend to have a high mortality rate. You want a high dice pool, to compensate for the fact that your character will often be outnumbered or wounded. Even then, tactics are your friend. A group of guards tossing 7 dice to your 16 can still perforate your character quite nicely.

Going with Glyph above, to this end allow me to shine some light upon the shadows of the 6th world:

Armor < Not getting hit < Not being seen.

It's nice to have armor (I usually feel safe with about 10/8 with some Nonconductivity and Chemical Protection), but it's better to have a good Reaction + Dodge (Ranged). And again, it's nice to have a good Reaction (I like about 6) + Dodge (Ranged) (Dodge 3-4, +2 Spec for Ranged), but it's even nicer to have a good Infiltration (Urban).

Why Urban?
Urban = city.
Hallways = Urban.
Streets = Urban.
Sewers = Urban.

Guess where most of your jobs are going to be?

Also, since Urban is so nice, Camouflage Suit for Urban works out pretty well, what with adding a -2 penalty to people's Perceptions to see you.

Note I did not say "The Best in the World", rather merely "Best in the World", meaning you are in the top level worldwide. Edited for clarity. Also note I specifically called out dice pools prior to equipment and circumstance modifiers. Yes, I think 6+ Skill, 8+ Attribute, and a Specialization are more than enough to qualify a character as a top contender in their field worldwide.

Consider on average that you will get 1 success per 3 dice. Also consider that you will have bad days. So if you figure a test to be unopposed and only need a single success, then 3 dice SHOULD be sufficent - but realistically you want to throw 5 or 6 to account for bad days. If your test has a threshhold you will want more dice (for instance, when Assesnsing you usually want 3 successes so your ideal die pool is 9-11, but you can get useful information out of a smaller die pool as well).

If your test is opposed (say, Automatics vs Dodged) you'll want to go as high as possible of course. Figure your average opponent will get 2-3 successes. Then remember that your opponents will not always be average. These are the sorts of tests you want to be able to throw your pool of 12-20 at.

And, most importantly, the higher your Edge, the tighter you are able to run your pools and still be successful when it is needed.

It was mentioned briefly, but I would like to add, your dice pools will vary by game. In some games you have specialists throwing 20 to 30 dice. If you are in one of these games, throwing 12 dice, they will consider you an amateur. The numbers given above are realistic numbers for common people on the street. So an 18 year old security guard first day on the job might have perception skill of 1 and intuition stat of 3 for a total DP of 4. The same guard 15 years later after numerous failed (or perhaps just non-lethal) shadowruns against him is now Perception 6 (Visual Spec) + Intuition 6 +Visual enhancement +3 + Geneware +2 to the perception skill for a dice pool of 19 and perhaps a rating 4 tacsoft to help all the guards bringing the total to 23. The first guard will be your main encounter in a low Karma game, while the latter is for a higher Karma game. At the highest levels, perhaps that guard is an adept with 3 more dice from an adept power, and some enhancements to raise his INT above 6.

Check with your GM, but normally at character creation 9 die pools are good enough for most games, if you plan to be a specialist in some particular niche, 12 is usually ok. You might also want to work out your skill levels with your team mates to make sure that everyone is in the same general ballpark. No one wants to be the odd man out, either as the prime target because you stand above, or being nearly useless because you do not meet the standards of your crew.

SR4 sure uses alot of dice... doesnt that get tiresome rolling and counting em all?

Nope!

you only need to know a few things to play, as compared to several other gaming systems. While you roll a large number of dice, they are the least expensive type of dice, and you only need one type.

I dun know SR3 can almost get tireing.

for me, the tiring aspect of it is determining how many dice I get. Counting out that many dice, rolling them, and counting the hits (and deciding whether to spend edge) is not a problem at all. In fact, it's kinda fun rolling that many. Except when you don't have enough dice. Anyway, I wrote a cheat sheet on the back of one of my character sheets, that spelled out all my bonuses for each test, so I don't forget anything.

Hehe yup I agree. Some atavistic pleasure rolling lots of dice. "My dice pool is bigger and more manly than yours"

*rolls 19 dice* I got seven hits. Again. What do you mean I don't get an edge point back for an exceptional success?

Is a lot easier if you color the ones red, the fives blue, the sixes green, and the rest of the pips the same color as the dice.




-np

On that subject, the rules support regaining Edge on a critical success against the odds. Mighty vague, there - failure on part of the rules, one that is repeated far to many times in far to many games.

I suggest the following:

If you achieve a Critical Success on a test that you did not use Edge on, and the total Hits are equal to or greater than one-half your dice pool, you regain 1 spent Edge.



The higher the dice pool, the greater the chance you regain Edge, because you have a greater chance of meeting the Critical Success requirement. The half dice pool requirement remains roughly consistent for dice pools of any size, and is intended to prevent large dice pools from meeting the requirements every time a roll is made.

I've always been unhappy with the way that the main rulebook gives examples of skill proficiency based solely on the skill rating. It should be based on the total pool: attribute plus skill.

Skill proficiency should be based solely on skill rating.

How successful one is at a task/test/etc, however, should be based on total pool - whatever it may consist of.

I don't like the examples, because they aren't just examples of high skill, but of high skill, high Attribute, and often a whole set of other skills. Especially for the higher-rated skills. Like saying SWAT team or elite military forces for an example of a high firearms skill - people tend to be "Well, my guy isn't SWAT level, so maybe I shouldn't give him Pistols: 5." For the skill of 5, a better description would be "Spends time at the range regularly, has often used a firearm in combat situations, and can acquire targets, shoot, and reload instinctively." There are a lot of character types who might not have the range of skills and abilities of someone in a SWAT team, but who would have comparable ability in shooting a pistol.

Hmm, so my human with 5 Infiltration and 9 agility, with a specialization is probably one of the best sneaky bastards?

The other thing.. you have to consider that some attributes are harder to raise through augmentation. Body, Intuition, and Willpower I believe are all rather difficult, if not impossible to do. I can only think of one augmentation that raises body, and I don't recall any that raise Intuition or Willpower. So the 8+ attribute isn't all the best descriptor, since it really only applies to Str/Agi/Rea/Log/Cha (and it ignores metatype). On the other hand, Body and Willpower have a grand total of four skills between them. Intuition has 10 skills linked to it. I would say for any Body/Willpower/Intuition skill, that having a 10 or higher (12 with specialization) is near the top.

Taking out augmentations, magic and other modifiers according to the book a 6 skill is top tier. To me that means a 6 attribute (based on human) with a 6 skill would be top of the line professional (12 dice). I'll add that I think natural ability is represented by the attribute. IMHO this means (I'll use Con as an example looking at the extreme ends of each dice pool):

3 Dice or less-Not well trained and not well suited for the task. (Chr 1, and Con 2-or- Chr 2 and Con 1). Don't ever rely on the character to accomplish a task with this skill. Conning a kid out of their lunch money would be difficult for this PC.

4-6 Dice- Well trained or have a natural ability with said skill (Chr 5 and Con 1-or-Chr 1 and Chr 5). Could reliably accomplish most simple tasks. Like conning a receptionist into believing that you had an appointement.

7-9 Dice-Well trained with decent natural ability or vice versa (Chr 6 and con 3-or-Chr 3 and con 6). Fully capable in said field: could con a guard into thinking the PC should be let in to a facility.

10-12 Dice-Exceptionally trained, with an exceptional attribute (Chr 6 and Con 6). Could con their way into the white house...ok bad example . Could con their way into a bank vault or a corp zero zone.

13-14 Dice -Humans with eceptional attribute and or skill and maxed out in both (Con 7 and Chr 7). Could con KE or Lone Star into believing that the bulllet holes in your vehicle were really just there for arodynamic purposes.

Everyone knows you specialize your Perception (Hearing).

"Skill proficiency should be based solely on skill rating." - toturi

I disagree.

Adrenaline Gland gives bonus to willpower and body if I'm not mistaken. Supra-tiroid gland also raises Body. And I think that is it. There is a lot of other stuff that increase your body when [insert situation where you roll body here], but the whole body, only the glands.
I've found only 3 things that give bonus to Intuition-based skills: 2 gene treatments and a nanoware. Each genetic treatment costs 25k and the nanoware costs 10k per rating (maximum 3). Can't remember the name of those though and note that I said they increase the intuition+skill roll, not the Intuition per se.

Also, ain't the cap at 20 die? I mean, you could have a skill + attribute + other bonus taking you up to 30, but you roll "only" 20 die, right?

Nope. There's an optional rule to cap a dice pool at 20 or twice the sum of natural attribute + skill, whichever is higher, but that's about it (and apart from social tests, that limit will basically never come up, even if you happen to use it).

It could come up for firearms.

5 Agility, 5 skill (or similar) = 10 dice base.
Smartlink - +2 dice
Specialization - +2 dice
Tacnet - + 3 dice (pretty sure yah can do that much, maybe more)
Enhanced Articulation - +1 dice
Aim 5 times - + 5 dice
Hmm, that's 23 dice.

Whoops, you're limited to 20... though granted, its not common you'd aim 5 times, when you already have a no-penalty short range shot lined up! OTOH, I can't recall off the top of my head if adept abilities, reflex recorders, and a few other things actually boost skill, or dice pools, so I didn't use those.

do TN's still get higher as difficulty goes up or is there just a req for more successes?

SR4 doesn't use variable TNs- any 5 or 6 is a success. Instead, the number of dice you roll is adjusted for things such as range, light penalties, etc. You might need to get more successes to offset a target's successful dodging, and some things (such as cover) might give the target extra dice on a dodge test.

that saddens me. I liked the nonlinearity of difficulty in SR...

I agree with you. And I like your suggestion. But I would say that the number is five hits or half your dice pool, whichever is greater. If you only have four dice, you just can't get an exceptional success.



Interesting. I never caught that before. Has it always been that way (in previous editions)? Do they really intend such a strict ruling? I can't believe they intend that you don't get the bonus to Dodge or Unarmed Combat. That'd be stupid.

I Don't (Disagree that is)

Keep the Faith

Skill proficiency (as in how proficient you are in the skill) should be the measure of your skill which is the skill rating.

The combination of attributes and skill may create the illusion that a muscular young man with a little training is more skillful than an old man who runs marathons all his life because he comes in ahead of the old guy.

An idiot savant might have very low Logic or Intuition but he can be very skilled at math or some other intellectual pursuit.

It's actually quite easy to (at chargen) hit Augmented Max with an elf, with Aptitude, an Adept's Improved Skill, and smartlink, you're looking at 24 or 25, without aiming.

Agility 11
Skill 7+3
Specialization 2
Smartlink 2

That's 25, and you can then TacNet, Enhanced Artic, and Aim. Or, if you use an auto weapon with a laser sight and tracer rounds, you can get an extra 2 (and it's quite easy to negate the recoil of the gun).

This is not including using sensors to lock on, using the Martial Arts maneuver Setup, or a handfull of other things.

Note the the cap in the optional rule is 20 or twice the sum of natural attribute + skill, whichever is higher (as Dragnar stated), so this theoretical elf would be able to use that full dice pool.

12-16 dice for unopposed tests
3-6 dice more then the opponent for opposed tests
1 more Edge then opponent

Not vague at all. The "rules" you're referring to are suggestions for the GM in the paragraph (p68) starting with "There are many other possibilities for rewarding characters with Edge points:" It's a GM judgement call. Or maybe you're suggesting that the rules also codify precisely what constitutes "Impressive roleplaying", or "Heroic acts of self-sacrifice" as well?

Note also that this rule is optional. Also note that for Missions they enforce the 20 pool cap (or so I hear).

Yes, that must be the reason I thought it was a permanent rule instead of optional.

Personally, I don't care for that rule. It messes up too many things, like full defense, the counterstrike power, etc. Other than social skills, the dice pools aren't really that out of hand. And for social skills, I would rather have them limit what things can stack, and gut a few ludicrous dice pool boosters such as empathy software, than impose an arbitrary cap on the dice.