Alright, to start off, yes, I've read the threads...

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19982

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20251

Both talking about downtime, and making money. Now, here's the rundown, and the problem....with a plea for help and ideas. The rundown, is, in the campaign I'm in, our GM is looking at a payout of around 10k per run, with one run per gametime month. He figured this was about average. If its not (which I have no idea seeing as its been forever since I've played, let alone 4E, let alone my last GM always HATED letting his characters buy anything other than at chargen....) I'd love to know what "average" usually is. We're a decently skilled group consisting of mage, two adepts, and a techno. Now, the GM encourages us to come up with what we do during our "downtime." I myself have Chemistry, so can have all kinds of fun making different chemicals (if you have suggestions on which ones would be best, I'd love to hear that) and the Mage can do enchanting and all that entails.....and the Techno has the whole Matrix at his fingertips. The conundrum comes down to the other Adept.
They went with a gunslinger adept, and so felt that Armorer, with spec in firearms, was appropriate. I wholeheartedly agree. The question comes down to the dice pool, since we have to buy our successes, with the GM not being there to verify rolls. With a Logic of 5, and Armorer of 5, this gives her 10 dice. She's opted for a shop, instead of facility, since she didn't have the starting nuyen for one anyways. Eventually getting a large desktop forge to "count" as a facility. However, at the moment, she's only getting a DP of 12, meaning 3 successes. Is there ANY other ways of boosting her dice pool for the actual tests? I know of improved ability for adepts, and that'll be taken once the skill gets to 6....but we're still only really talking about stats+skill+spec. Is there something I'm missing? What is a good setup for actually modding in order to maximise returns? Thanks for all the advice you can give us!

If you get a Renraku Manservant-3 (Arsenal), upgrade Pilot to 6 (Core but Availability 18) and an Armorer autosoft of Rating 4 (Unwired but basically gives it R4 of the Armorer rating if you don't have UW), then the Manservant could give bonuses via Teamwork tests of 10 dice. You could then buy multiple Manservants and give each of them a copy of the software. Talk to your GM first regarding how much of a teamwork bonus you can get, though, since buying 20 manservants won't give you bonuses for every single one of them, but you might get away with two or three.

I hadn't even thought of that, thank you

Rather, one should talk to the GM whether they're going to let you get Teamwork bonuses off Drones. It can be kinda abusable for downtime tasks.

My players run a data and item vault - "Vault of the Sixth World", (brownie points if you get the reference - that, if they impress me during the session knocks 10k or 20% off their lifestyle costs due to a large amount of new storage objects. Works well.

Also provides interesting hooks.

Don't forget the +2 bonus for working in AR, assuming you have access to the specs.

Ask the GM if he'll allow Edge use in downtime. I let my players refresh Edge at the start of each adventure (and during if it's epic) so any Edge points they have left after a run they can use on their personal projects.

A tutor sprite is another possibility, if your techno is up to it. By the Proficiency power, a tutor sprite with the armourer CF can replace the character's skill rating with half the sprite rating and ignore all modifiers (good and bad). So if he compiles a rating 18 tutor sprite (average fading DV of 6) that's a skill rating of 9 right there to add to your attribute. He'd need a lot of hits (average 7) on the compiling test though ...

[Tutor spirits might also be of use, but I don't have SM]

EDIT: Should make mention of the fact that a rating 18 sprite is going to be seriously willful - as a GM I'd probably throw in some roleplaying aspect to command such a power

I fear your GM is holding you back a bit. While 10k total is okay for a rookie team (and is the pay of On The Run), experienced professionals want to make more on the run than that. Ask your GM to look around the price/gear list and ask him wether a Shadowrunner would be content with risking his life for less than a fairly normal worker makes in a month (assming it's 10 for a team of 4 - 10k per runner is much more decent).

Considering what professional criminals could make by selling drugs, stolen cars or whatever datasteal they can pull off on their own, they need to be able to support themselves on shadowrunning and be able to constantly improve their gear.

Seconded.

I've just let my two-man team score 32,000 from their (rather easy) introductory run in order to whet their apetites and provide funds for better establishing themselves as a team. They won't get that kind of return for such little effort ever again and as a trade-off it's brought about all sorts of complications, some of which they don't yet know about (like the attention of a sadistic nytemare dissonant ).

Yeah, shadowrunning should always be about high-risk high-reward ventures. See all those lovely exotic and expensive goodies strewn throughout the core books that they won't let you have at chargen? Well they're not just for flavour ...

Well, if that's net profits in downtime, it's pretty good. If it's gross earnings, maybe..

High-risk-high-reward arguments don't really count for downtime, if you ask me. If you get into actual action, it's not downtime.

During "downtime" PC can earn there default lifestyles however they wish to describe. No Muss, no fuss. On to the Run. (For off screen time I would do this)

That works if you don't want to RP the "downtime". If you do want to play it out, then play it out, with paid and unpaid things happening. (This for On Screen downtime)

There should be no tangible reward for sitting around not playing.

No no, that was a run pay-off (fencing the stolen gear).

It was following on from the previous post's comment about 10k per run limiting the scope of the game, which it does IMO. Splitting 10k between four runners is peanuts, especially if they're only running once a month (cross-reference 2,500 with monthly lifestyle expenses and then look at how much the three awakened characters would need to save to afford any kind of focus).

Awakened runners are highly prized specialists so paying them barely enough for a low lifestyle to risk their hides and freedom is rather unsatisfactory, I'd say. Unless it's all part of the campaign for them to work up to better contracts ...

the 10k was per runner, and it was because we had actually finished two jobs in that session. So.....5k per job. They were as introductory runs, to get the feel of the team. The GM admitted he wasn't sure how much of a payout was average (hadn't Gm'd in a bit) But he figured on each run paying for lifestyle, and a little bit extra. At the moment I'm trying to work with him on either downtime activities, or increasing the pay of the runs. We've had one more session, and again the job paid 10k each for the run, and was given the heads up that there'll be another month of downtime. My lifestyle costs 7k a month, and I was just "encouraged" to get additional lifestyles because he feels I'm bringing too many goods (raw mats for 50 doses of 5 types of toxins) through my one....in the middle of a Z-Zone......with an escape tunnel positive quality. I've got no problem acquiring additional lifestyles, and diluting out some of my profits each month to pay for various things. However, as was said, at this rate, we'll have our starting gear for a LONG time if we only use the money we're paid on our runs.

The one player in our group who's an Armorer is having a hell of a time making any nuyen on downtime, just because of cost-comparison for being a Gunsmith. It takes too long to churn out each modded weapon, with a lot of upfront costs...compared to say, enchanting, hacking, or chemistry. She was suggested to take the instruction skill, and she could make money teaching as well....but we can't find any hard and fast rules on how much hiring an instructor even costs. You guys have any suggestions (the different ways of boosting the Armorer skill was great BTW) on what mods and guns and such would have the best turn around? For the life of me I just look at all of it...and see small gains and large time sink. Opinions?

The short answer is that the pay per run is going to be up to your group's play style. Note that it's group, not just the GM. Shadowrun is a flexible enough game system and setting that it works for high end pro jobs or low end street gangs. Your group should discuss as a group what kind of game they are going to be comfortable with. Some players/GMs are much happier one way or the other, and a game outside of their comfort zone can quickly ruin their enjoyment.

It's better to establish this early in the campaign. You as players need to know if the 50k you were offered for run x is good, bad, or average for your play style and level. For pro runners, 10k per person is about the minimum for a moderate risk job, just to be making more than they would with less risky criminal activity. Gangers, on the other hand, would be lucky to net a couple of grand each for a job. Keep in mind that some runs will offer alternative rewards, such as contacts, gear, qualities, or a boost to your rep. It isn't just about cash. Some jobs are going to be low risk low pay. Some will be windfalls that nearly get you all killed. Without a good base line, you can't play your characters as being appropriately paranoid of Mr Johnson's "low risk high pay" job offering.

In old SR3 Shadowrun Companion there was a table of typical fees, but the book is long out of print, though you could get the pdf. Even those fees seemed a little too low for certain jobs.

Looking at published adventures isn't really much help either - some modules payed out a couple of grand total and some were over 50k per character.

Also, ask your GM if he/she would be cool with you getting gear without paying for it. And I don't just mean as an alternate reward. Some GMs expect players to steal most of their gear. Remember, in shadowrun you're criminals. If running won't pay the bills you can always go for less risky ways to make cash.

If you decide to push for downtime activity, make it interesting. Make it a part of your character background. "When I'm not running I do x." The more interesting it is, the more likely your GM is to agree to it. Make sure whatever you do is criminal in nature, or has criminals as customers. Don't just be a gunsmith, or even a gunsmith who illegally modifies guns. That's boring and it doesn't pay well. Being the gunsmith who does custom work for that mob hitman who uses custom bullets for every hit is interesting and can be a fun story. Plus it's an excuse to jack up your prices, especially if he thinks it's bad luck to buy bullets from anyone else. Being the gunsmith who does custom work for that hitman while informing on him to the FBI can be as much fun for you as for the GM. Now you can make money for those engraved bullets, get hush money from the mob, and get kickbacks from the FBI. Plus your GM will feel you didn't get the extra cash for free. Any downtime activities you pursue should basically scream "plot hook" to the GM. Work in your regular contacts, and use your downtime as an excuse to make new ones. Bounce ideas off of your GM. A good GM will be a lot more flexible with creative player, especially one who basically hands him plot ideas.

Ultimately, each group is going to have to make their own decision as to how fast they want to advance nuyen as compared to karma.

I completely agree, and really like your answer Professor. It IS all about the group as a whole. Am definately going to be talking with my group about this more.

As a GM, I wouldn't encourage my PCs to find ways to make money in downtime. Why? Because that raises the question about why they bother to run in the first place. If your team's mage can make 5K a month as a Wagemage in a completely legitimate and comfortable lifestyle... why would he bother to take on uncertain, risky, illegal jobs for the same amount of money?

From the sounds of it, your GM is looking at it from the opposite direction. It might help to point out that if you can make anything near what he's paying you for your last few runs safely in downtime, then either his runs are paying way too little or (more likely) he is handing out too much money/items during downtime. IIRC, there are very few ways to make an actual profit in Shadowrun. Selling items is at a huge loss (since you're generally fencing them), and most items cost the same whether you build them yourself, and buy them whole. To be fair, I have not looked into this much, but I thought the main way of generating a profit during downtime in Shadowrun came from either having a quality like black-market-pipeline that let you sell things at better percentages, or by taking dayjobs (which is reflected in a quality, and caps out at 5K a month if you work full time and are not particularly famous).

if you really want to make a lot of money in downtime, take the Global Fame quality, and a 40-hour a week dayjob, and you make something like 50,000 a month. At that point, it becomes really hard to justify Shadowrunning for a living, since that would cut into your time working your ridiculously lucrative job (50K a month ~ 600K a year). For extra money, take the 10-point trust fund, and you wouldn't' have to pay for a lifestyle either.

Personally, I think what players do during downtime is important, and can add a lot of flavor and fun to the game, but I wouldn't want them to think that that was the profitable part of the game... that should be a big payouts from the risky job of Shadowrunning.

To a point I agree that if you can make so much during down time, why be a runner? However, for some....it fits. As for actually making money during downtime not being viable? It largely depends on your GM (how much time is in between each run) and what skills you have. We've had a month of downtime in between each run. That's long enough time for the mage to make orihalcum(I know I spelled it wrong...i think) or for my chemist to cook up a few batches of chemicals. Chemicals can sell for VERY nice prices. Considering raw mats is 1/10th the cost, even if you only sell for 30% base cost, that's a 20% profit. And that's only if youre not making stuff that's forbidden and such that the law hasn't cracked down on. If you're making forbidden chemicals, it increases how much you can sell it for. If you have a dry market, it increases the cost.....and if you have a monopoly on the item, it increases. I made industrial Acid at a Power that's not even listed in the books. Industrial Acid sells for its rating x 500 per "dose." That can end up being quite a bit.

What I've been doing is definately giving him ideas and things to work into the campaign. I do however agree with a lot that's been said. If it comes down to us "working" during our downtime, to afford new toys for running....there either has to be a better balance, or a change in the pace. Definately going to talk with the group.

I totally agree.

Having said that, Characters can make a good living without having to risk life'n'limb - vehicle theft, making things for people, spam marketing, etc.

Quick question. I'm looking at the rules for Buying Gear, and selling Gear, whether its through self or through a connection. Are these actions considered Social Tests? Meaning they have social modifiers?

Personally 10k per person per job doesn't sound so bad, but not if jobs only come around once a month. In one month with a 40 hour a week (Not full time by SR standards) job, you make 5k. So that's roughly 160 hours for 5k which comes out to 31.25/hour pay.

What you have to ask is if the bonus you get from risking your life is worth risking your life.

So, the job is 10k. Now, you likely had to spend at least a couple hours meeting the J. (2)
Now you have to do alot of legwork for the job. This can vary hugely but lets assume you put in two extra full days (20)
You have to do the actual job. Maybe spend only an hour on the job, but likely some prep and cool down time (3)
You have to meet the J again (2)

So you only put in about 27 hours of work for your pay. But keep in mind that you lose profit based on bullets fired and any expendables used (Had to get a new commlink, used some glue spray, whatever). Besides the monetary cost, you now have to spend time replacing those things. This can be rather huge based on what was used, as high availability high cost things could take weeks to replace. The game doesn't talk about how much time you have to actively spend during those weeks, but certainly at least a couple hours a day. So you're profit has gone down (To maybe 8k) and you're work time has gone up (By maybe 30+ hours)

So now you're looking at about 60 hours for 8k pay. Don't forget about the 200k worth of 'ware you had to scrounge up to even be able to make it to this pay grade, and don't forget that you're a wanted man/woman. And don't forget the likelyhood that people are going to try and kill you. And don't forget the possiblity of being double crossed. And don't forget that you may have to go to ground for a few weeks. And don't forget......

So personally, I don't think 10k a month is going to cut it at all for all the risks and initial investments that I'd have to make. And heck, even if I can't get a real job for some reason, I still think there would be better ways to make ends meet (Burglary, auto theft, working for the mafia/yakuza/whoever) than risking my life for a little bit of extra cash. If however it was 5k for doing reasonably safe work vs say 50k for doing something risky and illegal (After expenses and I'm spending less time doing it) then it certainly has my attention.

Perhaps the biggest problem looking at a person running for monetary reasons is a mage. Orchiliam (Or whatever) is worth 50k and takes a month to make. Why in the world a mage would ever accept a pay of less than 50k a month is a big question considering there is no risk and surprisingly little personal time required.

Ah, back to that again...

Well i don't agree with this assesment. Stealing cars, working for the yakuza and such is not safe and neither do you "earn" enough cash with it. You need to have people who buy that stuff from you. Have to pay "protection" money... "membership fees" and so on. And everybody will try to get "your" money down so you have enough to live squatter lifestyle, not more. If you can get enough money you get power... and powerful people don't like rivals.

Neither could you just "work for the corporations" then. There is most likely a reason why you are sinless. Even though you have good skills and good ware... for a corp to use someone indoctrinated since childhood, fitted with their own ware and trained specifically to task has just much more style and is more loyal, easier to predict and control and is less trouble (no bad history with anyone). They don't want you to belong to them... they want to control you as a deniable asset. They want to burn you up for profit.

Of course there are a lot of exceptions and ways out... but it is just not the standart.

If you begin to sell narcotics/chemicals/training/stolen stuff and such it may start with a profit... but after a while people bought enough of you (you need to widen the market) and others who lost money and power because of you may come to the conclusion that you might need "fixing". If you are lucky they just let you work (if you pay... say... everything you have every few days when they come around - they also take all your stuff), if you have bad luck, they just shoot you in the head for encrouching on their turf.

To approach the problem completely differently--you can roleplay it a bit. I write advice columns for a shadow-node and go at a freelancer rate. My GM had me write the first few, and then just accepted that I was doing it.

The same would happen to shadowrunners, don't you think?



If you even are. You can always take the SINner quality for additional BP.



The again, not all corps like to spend so much time and money on raising people; they prefer to hire people for a project, and kick them out afterwards. Not all corps even exist for long enough to have the chance to raise their own sararimen.



I think this requires a little more actual thought. For every PC, ask the player:

"Why are YOU a shadowrunner?"

We all know some of the possible reasons;
- It's only for a little while, until you get back on your feet and a safer, stable job
- You can't get along in a regular office job
- You're SINless
- You're good at it
- You have some deep, depressing, dark, mysterious and haunted past
- You're some sort of freak, that can't possibly work even for the Mob (toxic shaman, hunted, etc.)
- You're getting paid extremely well for it
- You prefer to be independent from gangs/syndicates
- You're banned from legitimate work
- You do running on the side to generate occasional extra cash flow to "fill the holes"
- You have no clue what else to do
- Because you're desperately in debt, and being squeezed for money (works well with extravagant lifestyle or drug abuse)

Any character that doesn't have a good reason to be a shadowrunner goes into the retired bin immediately, and the player can make a new character that does have a reason to run. Not everyone runs strictly because running pays well; but they need a reason why they can't/won't do something safer/saner/richer.

If a character starts making more money in downtime, question the player why the character is still running the shadows. If there's no reason, maybe it's time to retire this character and make another one?

In our games Edge spent in downtime typically counts against the upcoming not-down time. So rather than finishing an adventure and having 4 edge left and blow it all on some pet project* before it refreshes, it becomes a choice like any other use of Edge: spend it now and not have it later, or is this really important?

*Say...the availability rolls to find That One Item in 4 days or less, then haggle the price down considerably, due to serious use of edge that won't bite them back later.

Right now, we've decided for the armorer to just use the skill for her own benefit. That, or mod up the weapons that we steal, instead of constantly trying to get stock in weapons to mod up over the month in downtime. That was the only way we could figure out for Armorer skill to be profitable by the numbers in a time spent vs. money gained standpoint. The GM encouraged her to take instruction, and that she could use that and her Pistols skill to make money during down time. I just can't find any hard and fast rules for the costs of an instructor.

The shops we do have will make use of the Manservant idea though, and she'll probably have a desktop forge and a couple manservants for her shop (to give it the abilities of a facility while using the manservants to make up for the hit you take in DP due to insufficient tools.) The ideas have been great! Definately keep them coming

These might help as guidelines:

For spell forumula, SR4A p181
For martial arts, Arsenal p156

The Martial Arts table might be the best fit for someone offering to teach combat skills, but keep in mind that martial arts take a test with an interval of a month to learn - so if the learner takes two tries at the test to pass, the 6-9 K instructor fee gets cut down to 3-4K a month. Terrible.

AFAIK, there are no hard and fast rules for how much instructors can charge for other skills, or how long those skills take to develop.

Also, IMHO, since tutorsofts are generally cheaper than human instructors, but only come in ratings 1-5, there would only be a solid market for instruction for things that cannot be taught by tutorsofts (magic, and martial arts, see above) and for skills being taught at ratings 6+ - but your mileage may vary.

SR4A says that instruction in complex fors generally rungs about instruction skill x 1000.
My GM and I just had to make something up for long term tutoring.

Yeah, she's got Pistols at 6 w/ specialization SA's and Improved Combat Ability Pistols 3 so....yeah Instruction skill x 1000 doesn't sound too bad

How about your fixer hooks the adept up and pay him to give the once over on hardware merchandise?

"Hey chummer, I got a stash of Chinese Predator pistol knockoffs that have sticky triggers and nobody will buy them until they're worked on. 50 creds a pop if you smooth the action up. Shouldn't take more than an hour per pistol."

"A crate of AKs fell off a truck and I happened to get hold of them. 25 credits a pop if you take off all the serial numbers, and an extra 25 a pop if you give them the once over and separate out any that you feel would gum up and fail on me. Oh, and most of them should have already had the blood wiped off of them, but if not, be a chum and clean them up okay?"

"Wouldn't you know it? An ork gang has decided their weapon of choice is going to be an alloy baseball bat with a shotgun wired to the handle. Got someone turning the bats at record speed, got the shotgun pistols, but what I don't have is someone to wire them together. You up for it?"

"Jimmy the Hutt is buying a truckload of SMGs to sell to the triads. He'll pay you 3 grand if you inspect the weapons and make sure they're of good quality."

"Some runners wanna know if their new boomstick is going to blow up in their face. Picked it up on a run in Hong Kong back during the 'mancer troubles but hadn't had the balls to shoot it yet. Willing to give it a go-over for a thousand credits?"

"Dude, I need a middle-man. Buy this crate of shotguns for 5000 credits from these trustworthy and honest-looking citizens, and I'll buy it off of you for 10k. "

I'm sure you *could* come up with more reasons, but as you make connections in the field, I'd imagine business comes to *you* in your offtime.

Not [skill to teach] * 1000. Instruction * 1000.
Instruction is a skill.

This. Also, as I said before, training time could take months. It does in the case of martial arts, and skill groups, and even for individual skills, the interval for the learning test is in weeks. Net hits from the instruction test help reduce that time, but those costs are not per month, they are per karma-expenditure, so it is quite likely that your instruction skill x 1000 nuyen will be spread over two (or more!) months - particularly if your student has a poor pistols skill or poor intuition.

Of course depending on how much time you have to spend on an individual student, you could easily have more than one student. Heck, you might even be able to have small classes and get paid for a half dozen people at once.

Yeah, I noticed that its based on instruction skill, not what you're teaching. You can only teach to a rating of that skill that you actually have though, so that means she can be teaching the higher end. As for the intervals, yeah, that kinda sucks. We're trying to figure out just how exactly we're going to handle it at the moment. She wants to be good at instruction, and receive a decent amount....however, this is Shadowrun, not Businessrun.....so she doesn't want to invest all of her Karma for the next few sessions towards it.....understandably. Now, remember, we have to buy our hits, not roll for them (since GM can't verify the rolls in between sessions.) With her 5 instruction, and 6 Cha she's just 1 shy of being able to buy 3 hits. However, its every 2 net hits that you get the additional die...meaning she needs 4 hits, or a DP of 16....at the least. With it being a social test, and her being an adept, things could easily be boosted though. Hmm.