I seem to recall seeing a sidebar in some SR4 book about things that magic in Shadowrun cannot do, at all, ever, full stop. Teleportation and bringing dead people back to life were among them. I checked Street Magic, but couldn't find it - can anyone help?

that is not just sr4...

Right, these limitations hold true everywhere in the Shadowrun universe. I was hoping that someone could give me a reference to some 4th edition book (seeing as that's the only kind I own).

That's the limits of Sorcery, not limits of magic in general.

Take that as you will.


And even with that caveat there are some really old beings out there who'd take exception with that sidebar.

If you mean the book listing of "The Limits of Sorcery" it is in Street Magic, pg. 159

Thanks, this is what I was looking for.

As mentioned, that is the limits of Sorcery, aka Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, & Counterspelling.

It does not apply to paranormal powers, metamagics, etc. Although I would strongly advise generally adhering to those limits anyways - even in cases where you do want to do something, it doesn't quite work directly as stated. For example, I have a custom "teleportation" metamagic. It does not actually allow teleportation [instantaneous travel from one location to another without crossing the intervening distance]; instead, it allows you to bring your physical body onto the astral plane & back, allowing stupidly high speeds of movement (but still half that of semi-ballistic or sub-orbitals) without having to worry about physical barriers.

Remember that while its listed as the limits on scorcery, if there were other ways of time travel or raising the dead, you'd think that the GD might have done something about Big D. They are above most of the other limits on magic use, such as knowing all spells and creating new ones on the wing, not to mention summing Force: Yes spirits in droves (and doing so in minutes, rather than hours).

If there was a way to save* Big D they'd probably have done it.

*This of course assumes that they'd want too, which is entirely possible that they don't as he did kill himself to prevent the horrors from breaking through. But if resurrection magic existed, then odds are it could have been used whereas time travel is likely not applicable in this instance.

Dunkie is still alive, sort of. He's a Free Spirit possessing a Cyberzombie now.

And the guys who don't know this wouldn't have any desire to resurrect him. It isn't like dragons are social creatures.

Assuming that resurrection magic would work. Given the last time that it did, Death was imprisoned.

Currently Death is NOT imprisoned. So ostensibly Death could prevent such magics from working.

I will add that this is from Earthdawn, not SR specifically.

Didn't know that. Where should I be looking for ref?



They're sociably anti-social in ShadowRun. They act the same way Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would if they were in the same room any everybody was watching: courteous, but not friendly. They have no particular affinity for each other, because they have competing interests, but they're not trying to kill each other (they are, after all, on the same side where it really matters).

And remember, that's just the Great Dragons. Ordinary dragons--which we don't hear much about, if at all--are going to be more sociable with others in the same "class" as they are, same as two employees from competing companies: they'll fly their corporate flag a bit, but they're be no hostility what so ever.

Which is why we shouldve had dragon shadowrunners!

I fear something like that, actually. It'd almost be on the level of playing a dragon in Rifts: ungodly powerful with comparison to normal characters and no real downsides (even if you charge 400 BP for them but provide a bit of stat/skill shuffle so they aren't cookie cutter identical, you'd still end up with an option so much more powerful than other characters, the same way a free spirit is in RAW Karma gen can be).

PFFFT! Youve never played a glitter boy, or even a power armor pilot, or robot pilot. Dragon Hatchlings fulfill the role of "TANK", as in theyre big targets and eat a lot of damage and they inspire enough fear to make the bad guys shoot at them the most, but many other classes in the main book can often beat them in pure combat ability. The ones that dont do so intentionally, theyre adventuring scientists and teachers and such who dont really have a role in combat at all. so you cant compare them as such!

Dragons in SR are still glass cannons just like everyone else. Theres a couple people here (myself included) who have not found them particularly unbalanced in play. The best thing you can do via houserule though is make them pick their kinds of spirits and lock them in permanantly. Being able to summon any kind of spirit on the fly is about the only thing thats broken about them.

I'll concede that they can work, but it sounds a little more Pink Mohawk than my group's games.

The GM doesn't try and bone us for not cleaning up a crime scene* too much or bring up the fact that drakes are hunted and very distinct. But he will take advantage of poor planning or deliberately bad choices. We've had some particularly epic moments, such as blowing up a 10 story building, setting a place on fire by accident,** and a few others. But he'll never use the setting to hose us (the whole "by RAW it would be impossible to get away with a crime" thing)

*The only time he did he had a cabal of mages nuke the guy with astral hazing repeatedly with F1 fireballs (with obviously no effect).

**And once again setting Jim on fire, the two constantly do this to each other

Dragonheart Trilogy


Dragons aren't anti-social. They're asocial. They're solitary animals, like crocodiles. They don't form social bonds the way humans do, and they don't need to. The exceptions are familial, between mates, between siblings, and between parents and offspring. And even then it is rare isn't usually that strong.

I'll agree that dragons as PCs would be hella difficult in a black trenchcoat type of game. 99% of their time would be spent shapeshifted into some kind of metahuman, thus completely nullifying any advantage they had for size/strength.

Pink Mohawk it enough, and your dragon is your transportation!

Ah, I figured. I just haven't picked it up yet.



Do we have a good reference on this for all SR dragons, or are we basing this off the information on greats?



We're not black trenchcoat, really. More like...pink trenchoat. We blow stuff up all the time, but consequences are few: if we completed our objective we won't be hunted down for committing the crime (e.g. if we get hired to assassinate the president we kill him and get out of the scene before LS shows up we get away scott clean, any "acceptable collateral" is also waved--e.g. killing some secret service in order to get to the president). But if LS shows up, we're expected to evade. If we cause collateral that doesn't help complete the job and don't clean up we can expect it to bite us in the ass later.

The Earthdawn Dragons PDF. It has a great deal of info about SR/ED dragon society.

Ah, thanks.

black trenchcoat is perfect for dragons. you can go to a meeting with no weapons and if someone pulls a gun you eat him!

Does that mean you go to the meet with or without a shapechange spell active? Imagine the repercussions of each

Active is more what I was implying where the dragon would change back to commence dinner.

I did however have the thought of a drake or similarly sized dragon wearing a black trenchcoat and dark sunglasses show up at a meet.

I built an Aberrant character that would have fit that profile. Heh heh...
Never got to play in the game though, but the whole concept was mind control--so he'd hijack some twat's body until it got killed and everyone would be like "oh shit!" then just get a new one (same way we talk about AIs and drone bodies in SR).

What about those Cyberzombies? Do they die during the process and are revived?

As I understand it magic keeps them from dying. Doesn't let the soul leave in the first place, not get it back.

This is my understanding as well. For details, see the last chapter of Augmentation.

Not quite. Dragon society is primarily comprised of loners, who have an elaborate and intricate social ettiquette designed to keep them from ripping each others throats out. Additionally, most dragons foster out their eggs to a GD for hatching, and the hatchlings bond quite well with their foster parent. Sometimes these bonds can become quite strong, such as in the case of Dunkelzahn and All-Wings. Other times, these bonds/responsibilities can cause great feelings. Lowfyr was anything but indifferent when Glasgian destroyed the eggs fostered to him.