Does a Thagomizer also grant the benefits of an balance/vestigal tail?

It says that it is a powerfully muscled prehensile tail, so it counts as a prehensile tail (which functions like a balance tail).

Vestigial tail is not the same thing. Its a negative quality.

See, here's an instance of rule wording I find very problematic.

A thagomizer is a spiked tail, as found most notably on ancient dinosaurs of various sorts. Such tails were NOT prehensile - id est, they were not usable for grasping, nor for hanging from. They were not at all flexible enough for such actions, nor would the massive bone spikes protruding from the tail be very agreeable to such usages anyway.

I think the rule was just poorly written, and they didn't mean to use "prehensile" where they did. Heck, look at the final paragraph of the entry - the metagenic quality is called Functional Tail, but they erroneously say that the "Versatile Tail" quality is incompatible with any other tail modification. Add on to this the fact that a Thagomizer and a Prehensile cost the same number of BP, who would ever NOT use a thagomizer if it was just a prehensile tail with free bonuses?

~Umidori

Point.

I think what they meant then is that you can control it "as a limb" like the prehensile tail (contrary to the balance tail) but not that it can pick things up.

For some reason, I thought this was covered in errata...
but there is no errata for RC. :-\

Maybe granting the benefits of a balance tail with a thagomizer, but when I first read that metagenic quality I felt that such a tail would be too unwieldy to work well for balance.

Really, all it needs to do is move that way while your upper body moves this way. If the end is heavy--laws of physics--it doesn't need to move as far.

Of course, that immediately reminded me of this comic.

I agree partially. I think even the stegosaurus needed his tail to balance his body-mass out. But if he used it for an attack, a solid stand would definitely be "requirement no. 1". So it should work as a balance tail but grabbing things really seems to be a no-go. Thanks

From my experience slack lining, I have mixed feelings about a thagomizer working as a balance tail. Not because it couldn't be used as an extra arm to help balance yourself, but because I don't think it would come naturally. The thagomizer is first and foremost a weapon, and so will have very strong muscles that are used to swinging around at full force and might not have very good fine motor control. You might have trouble shifting it half an inch one direction or another, because the tail naturally wants to either swing hard to the left or right or whatever direction to hit something hard.

And even if you do have fine motor control over the tail, there is still the 'it isn't natural part'. Having seen dozens of people on slack lines, especially novices, it is amazing how quickly they forget to do things. They won't use their hips for balance, they won't keep looking at a fixed point, they'll rely entirely on their arms and not use their torso for balance, and so on. Since balance beyond walking on the ground isn't natural, they have to concentrate alot on a single aspect of more advanced balance, and loose track of all the others. Similarly I figure that unless someone with a thagomizer is very experienced at balancing, they'll be too focused on using their arms to think about using their tail, or too focused on their tail to use their arms.

This is a very serious point. Advancements through Surge count as natural augmentations, but becoming goblinizied/surged during your life shouldn´t cause a natural understanding about how your changings work. It is basically as unnatural than a new cyberlimb or the cyber-version of predator legs or a balance tail. If you get born with such an mutation it could be different, but surge isn´t intended to be hereditary.

And as I said, people trying to balance have trouble keeping track of all the parts of them that are natural, so even if you've had the thagomizer your entire life that doesn't necessarily mean it would be very helpful in balancing.

P.S. One of the biggest problems people have, is actually using their feet to help balance themselves. And given that use of our feet to balance ourselves while walking is among the most natural things we do, you'd think this would make it easy, but people will consistently ignore advice about using their feet to help balance them.

Very good points, this is especially important whenever some new condition afflicts a character.

New Implant
Latent magician/adept gains magic ability
Latent Changeling/Drake/etc

Characters who are BORN with the ability/limb/etc would have no negative impact but if either character Loose/Gain ability/limb/etc they would suffer the same symptoms.

Someone relying on a heavy tail stickign out from their back will have serious balance problems the day the tail is cut off/removed - just as someone who gains a tail will have problems.

As an interesting note, just standing up and standing still takes 300 active muscles in your body. Now, they are all working in synch...then you add or loose 10% of those working muscles...

The human leg and back are actually very poorly designed (well, outside of their evolutionary purpose of working as well on land as in shallow water.) A large tail could very easily improve balance through focusing the center of gravity lower and keeping it much more predictable as far as the shift of the hips forward or backward.

Still, having any gymanstic ability means practice, and practiced characters know how their bodies work. The people who don't know how to use their feet properly are completely unpracticed.

Probably true. I know that I learned how to not kill myself slipping on ice because my church Youth Group went out and played Broom Ball every once in a while (Broom Ball: think hockey only with shoes, not skates, and you use a wax-dipped broom to smack around a plastic ball about the size of a softball).

The trick: crouch. Its really hard to fall over when you're down that low, and if your feet do slide out from under you you don't have very far to fall. This is so effective that I've been able to carry cups full of some drink and not spill.

All of you also have to understand, SURGE is a magical effect. The magic may also give you the ability to instinctively use the new appendage without having to learn anything.

Magic might give you the "basics" that your extra set of arms behave like additional arms and your brain can handle them - subconsiously you still have to get used to them being there.

Man, there's all kinds of TF* fiction out there that covers this issue.**

And it varies a lot.

*TF = Transformation. TG is transgender. TF/TG is Exactly What it Says on the Tin

**If you can control new limbs and how awkward it is.

Or, if the player prefers to RP it this way, the SURGE could have given them attributes which they felt they were missing their whole life up to that point. They may feel normal for the very first time afterward.

I mean the whole SURGE thing is sort of a "trans" analogue, and most trans people feel like their bodies are "not right" as is.

True. E.g. like you receive additional control-implants and subroutines for the use of cyber-limbs and tails.