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forgarn

Mar 2 2010, 03:39 PM

In the SR4A book there is a section that states:

QUOTE (SR4A @ page195)

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers. Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes, including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers, the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may use their adept powers normally.

Now I have a player with a MA and a Magic of 6. He has used 3 points for adept powers. We understand that he only throws 3 dice when making a Spellcasting check, but what is the max power of the spell he can cast before over casting? Is it still 6 or is it 3? The above is kind of vague.

Karoline

Mar 2 2010, 04:10 PM

I think there is another thread with a discussion on this already. That said it sounds to me like you would determine drain based off the magic of 6, as it isn't a power point and it isn't a magic-based skill (Spellcasting is, drain isn't). I'm sure plenty of others will jump on to contradict me though.

pbangarth

Mar 2 2010, 04:33 PM

Yes, the other thread is HERE. The preponderance of opinion falls down on the side of using the full Magic Attribute (adept and spellcaster) to determine both the maximum Force and whether the Drain is Stun or Physical.

Karoline

Mar 2 2010, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 2 2010, 11:33 AM)

That's how I read the quote too.

forgarn

Mar 2 2010, 09:31 PM

Thanks for that link. Actually post #5 in that thread (from Aerospider) points to the Catalyst Shadowrun FAQ where he found this from CGL:

QUOTE (Catalyst Game Labs FAQ on Magic)

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), overcasting, and maximum spell Force, for example.

For power points and Magic when used by adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes Attribute Boost Tests and the like.

For all other purposes -- i.e., non-Magic-linked skills -- the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, and so on.

So in the example above, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain.

Sorry for the duplicate query and for not checking there first. Thanks to Aerospider for the quote from the official FAQ. Helped a lot.

Muspellsheimr

Mar 2 2010, 09:48 PM

And if you would bother to read the rest of the thread, you would see that that is meaningless.

The FAQ is out of date, unsupported, contradicts the rules (it is not errata), overly complicates things, & generally bullshit. Developers have even said you should not be using it because it's so out of date.

forgarn

Mar 2 2010, 10:05 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did read the rest of the thread after I posted this and there is still no OFFICIAL ruling so either way is correct and I still have to play it by ear. Gotta love vague rules!! I was hoping to get away from that with SR when I moved from the "other game."

Muspellsheimr

Mar 2 2010, 10:11 PM

Yes, and as I pointed out, the rules strongly imply that you use your full Magic rating for determining maximum Force & Overcasting. Particularly because, as Karoline pointed out, the points dedicated to the 'magician' side specifically apply to skills (something I had not previously noticed - this is actually enough for me to call it Rules as Written, but it is still quite unspecific).

Caadium

Mar 2 2010, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (forgarn @ Mar 2 2010, 02:05 PM)

Gotta love vague rules!! I was hoping to get away from that with SR when I moved from the "other game."

This is a byproduct of creating rules for a game that are supposed to define an entire fictional world. This doesn't matter if its fantasy, sci-fi, horror, or even toon. The trick is to find a setting, and hopefully some rules, that you can live with. This says nothing of the fact that no document (let alone game) is ever interpretted by all people in the same way; otherwise there would be no need for lawyers. What is written in a clear way to the author and their peers might be full of vague holes to other readers. Hell, I'm sure that if I tried hard enough I could find people to argue or challenge the rules of Tic-Tac-Toe.

Karoline

Mar 2 2010, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Caadium @ Mar 2 2010, 05:14 PM)

otherwise there would be no need for the supreme court

Fixed that for you

After all, their only job, almost literally, is to interpret the constitution.

Caadium

Mar 2 2010, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 02:20 PM)

Fixed that for you

After all, their only job, almost literally, is to interpret the constitution.

Quite true, but far more people make money as Lawyers than they do as Supreme Court Justices, and if communication and rules were that easy to write and define there would be a lot less unemployed lawyers.

Draco18s

Mar 2 2010, 10:37 PM

Having a lawyer in the family I can say with utmost accuracy that it is a lawyer's job to make the plain and simple confusing, ambiguous, and misleading while at the same time making everyone else think that the unclear and confusing is in fact quite explicit in saying that you owe the lawyer money.

A lawyers's dog stole a side of beef from the butcher, so the butcher went to the lawyer's house and said, "If a dog should steal some of my wares, would it not be the owner's responsibility to pay me for my loss?"
To which the lawyer replied, "Of course."
"Then you owe me $20, for it was your dog that stole from me."
The lawyer handed over the $20 quite calmly and the butcher went home thinking he'd just pulled one over on the lawyer.
The next morning however, he found a note at his shop:
"Consultation fee: $500"

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