So I'm interested in building an infiltrator who favors a crossbow, but there's a lot that just isn't stated in the rules for these weapons.

1) Do they operate silently?
2) Are they MAD detectable?
3) What kinds of modifications can they take?
4) What kinds of accesories can they take?
5) How big are they?
6) How large / heavy / concealable are bolts?
7) Why do bolts share arrowhead rules?

That's the short version, but I do have some more in-depth concerns below.

As far as silence goes, crossbows definately don't have the report or flash that a firearm does. They may make some operational noise depending on construction, but I know for a fact that a properly built modern crossbow can be made next to silent. Should silence be considered standard on a crossbow? If not, would it have to be added as an internal weapon mod? If so, would it take only 1 slot compared to the normal 2 of a standard small arm?

In regards to MAD scans, would most modern crossbows lack metal entirely? Or would you need to modify them to be MAD undetectable? Furthermore, on page 40 of Augmentation, the entry for the Magnetic System states that most metals in 2070 are no longer ferrous and thus if you want to use your cyberlimbs magnetic system with a weapon, you need to add ferous materials to the weapon. How, then, do MADs manage to detect weapons at all then?

In terms of weapon modifications, obviously there are a some that simply won't apply to non-firearms, such as gas-vent systems. But that said, which ones are kosher? Could I potentially trick out my crossbow to be fully automatic if I wanted to spend the mod slots and cash? What about additional or extended clips? Crossbows are magazine weapons, but it theoretically shouldn't be hard to convert a box magazine into a clip. What about smartgun systems? What about a bayonet? Or a barrel extension or reduction?

Ditto for accesories. Which slots are available? Dependant on crossbow design, I can easily see an Under slot being available as default, with either a Top or Barrel slot possible as well, based on whether the path of the bowstring is on top of body or sunken into it. I can provide images of both types if anyone is confused as to what I'm talking about.

How big are crossbows? Pistol crossbows are "pistol" sized, but is that Light or Heavy pistol sized? (Also curious about the pistol grenade launcher!) Is a light crossbow smaller than a medium one, or just not as strong? How heavy is a heavy crossbow? How concealable is it? Would it be +2 like a short barreled Defiance T-250? Or +4 like a sword or SMG? Or +6 like a katana or assault rifle?

How do you carry around bolts? Ammo pouches? While the average person will almost always recognize a bullet, would they recognize the unusual slug of metal that is a bolt?

Why do bolts share the rules for arrowheads? Bolts are constructed much more like bullets than they are like arrows. Certain ammunition types obviously won't work, (like Frangible, Hollow Point, Tracer, AV, or APDS) but surely others would be fine? Hi-C Plastic bolts? Capsule bolts? Silver bolts? Tracker bolts? Flechette bolts? EX Explosive bolts (always wondered why they have the normal, but not these)? What about shotgun rounds like Flare bolts, and Shock Lock bolts? Those all seem pretty reasonable payloads.

~Umidori

1.) While crossbows aren't absolutely silent, they make even less noise than guns using silencers. I'd probably give a -6 to hear it.

2.) The picture of the pistol crossbow on page 18 of Arsenal certainly looks like it's made out of metal.

3.) I'd be inclined to allow anything that makes sense. No Smartlink unless you seriously rework the software, and nothing involving clips.

4.) Same as #3.

5.) Based on the picture and comparing the handgrip to a usual hand, I'd go for heavy pistol.

6.) About the size of a knife seems fair to me.

7.) While RL there are many differences between bolts and arrows, they are similar enough to allow one to easily streamline the rules. However, since arrows now require higher ratings for high-strength arrows (not something I'm a big fan of) I have no idea how that will compare to Arsenal arrow costs.

As far as internal weapon silence, remember that modifications and accessories inherent to a weapon don't count against the 6.

Excellent catch on MADs vs. Magnetic System. I would like to suggest that the "nonferrous, semi-metallic polymer compounds" create a sort of deviancy that may or may not be noticed by the Magnetic Anomaly Detector but isn't strong enough for a magnet to actually hold the object. By the rules, though, you're quite correct.

I'd purely make up the number of 10 bolts for an ammo pouch. Really, I'd research what's reasonable for crossbows and such nowadays.

I hope some of that helps.

I don't know much about crossbows, but the way metal detectors work in the real world is not by detecting magnetic materials, but rather conducting materials. A metal detector uses an electromagnet to induce eddy currents in conducting material; these eddy currents induce magnetic fields of their own, which can be detected.

If a MAD scanner works on similar principles, then whether or not the material is ferrous doesn't matter - the important thing is whether or not it conducts.

Mmm, the conductivity makes sense. Right then.

As per bolt sizes, they are MUCH smaller than knives. That'd be an insanely large bolt. Unlike arrows which are lightweight and large, bolts are very dense and thus very small. In fact, one type of crossbow is known as a stonebow. It is essentially a double-string crossbow with a sling instead of a boltplate so that it can launch small stones or lead bullets.

As for smartgun systems, grenade launchers can have them, why not crossbows? The trajectories aren't all that different.

The rest I mostly agree with, except the made of metal thing, but the images are notoriously useless in the rulebooks. Also, what are you refering to by arrow "ratings" and "high-strength" arrows? Is that something to do with Bow ratings and the caps on Strength? Because crossbows shouldn't be affected by that.

~Umidori

Okay, my knowledge of modern crossbows isn't exceptional, but I actually know a bit about ancient ones, so I'll see what I can figure out.

1. I'd imagine around the noise of a silence pistol. I've never heard a silenced pistol in person, but they don't seem to make much noise, and crossbows (like real bows) can make an annoyingly loud twang sound after being fired. A skilled operator could know to put their hand to the string right after it is fired, but it might still make a bit of a twang noise. Overall very quiet through. Maybe a -6 if the crossbow is designed to stop the twang somehow.

2. Depends on if they are made with metals or not. I think modern crossbows are mostly made with plastics fiberglass, so it is very reasonable that they wouldn't be MAD detectable.

3 & 4. That'd be very case by case basis. I see no reason they couldn't take a smartgun though. The idea is exactly the same as a pistol, the only difference is that the bolt is slower and larger. Has to change a few variables, but I'm sure that such a system is out there. Laser would also be possible but potentially less useful as bolts don't fly quite as strait as bullets.

5. Depends on the crossbow. Pistol crossbows are just that, about the size of a pistol. You're standard crossbow however is likely to be a bit longer than your forearm and hand, and almost equally wide (Though the crossbars can be collapsed for ease of movement). May have a stock for increased accuracy which would add to the length. I'd imagine they would be around shotgun size, seems reasonable. Maybe assault rifle.

6. The bolts are usually going to be just slightly shorter than the crossbow itself, around a quarter inch thick, and are generally fairly dense, but they won't be overly encumbering to carry around. A pouch or case would both be good options for carrying around bolts. I think mini-quivers also exist to put bolts in. You can keep them at your side like a pouch. I'd also imagine that 99% of people would be able to tell that a bolt is a weapon. They might not be able to correctly identify it as crossbow bolts, but they'll know they are dangerous. At very best you might be able to convince someone they are custom throwing darts.

7. I'd imagine because the pointy part of the bolt and arrowhead are near identical. Bolts are far more similar to arrows than they are to bullets. I mean for all intents and purposes a bolt is just a short, dense arrow.

While i don't recall what the technique is called, it is possible to further 'silence' a bow (and presumably a crossbow) by wrapping the string with rabbit fur. Admittedly, this has a detrimental impact on accuracy, but if done correctly the deviations from normal all fall within a reasonable range, which you can then compensate for if you know what you are doing. While it doesn't completly elliminate the sound of the bow firing, it muffles it quite well, making it hard to hear, even from only a few feet away. It sounds like a dull thump.
Yay for living with an Archer Instructor for two years.

Oh, yeah, basically makes the string heavier so it can't vibrate as easily, and since the fur isn't taunt, it also absorbs alot of the vibration. There are a few reasons this might not work with a crossbow though. The first of which is that the string is much shorter, so you can't get as much fur on it. The second of which is that there is usually minimal clearance between the string and some parts of the crossbow itself, and might not allow for such an addition. This also might not work well for compound bows as the fur might get wrapped up in the pulleys.

1) Do they operate silently?

Not silently, but pretty close. They aren't supersonic, and there's no explosive escape of gases. As a GM, I would consider adding better machined (and therefore, quieter) components and a string made of some cool, future material for added cost and further reduce the noise. However, you're never going to overcome the sound of the bolt going through the air.

2) Are they MAD detectable?

By default, probably so. They'll use metal (or at least ferrous) parts in them. However, with some work, I'm betting you can replace those parts easier than you could on a firearm. The bulk of the crossbow is not conductive (it's carbon fiber, plus whatever the stock is).

3) What kinds of modifications can they take?

By the rules, none that I can see (they aren't firearms), except for resizing for race. I'd ask the GM for specific ones that make sense (the only ones I see are Melee Hardening, Weight Decrease and Improved Concealability).

4) What kinds of accesories can they take?

Crossbows can mount a single Bow Accessory Mount, which lets you mount a single imaging or smartlink system accessory. (Cannon Companion)

5) How big are they?

Depends on type. This is something you should probably use google for. In general, larger 'caliber' crossbows are larger - they need either a longer bow, or more machinary (more pulleys and such). The idea of using a crank to reload a crossbow seems patently out of date, unless you're an Amerindian allergic to technology. I'd replace this with a small, silent motor. You still need to ready the bow between shots, but not spend a full action rewinding it.

From what I've seen, some crossbows also break down, so you can store them in a case like a sniper rifle. In this case, I'd say it follows the Sniper Rifle rules for setting up/breaking down. Otherwise, they aren't exactly concealable (pistol crossbow non-withstanding). You might want to hit your local Bass Pro and check some of them out though, for your own information.

6) How large / heavy / concealable are bolts?

Small, concealable.

7) Why do bolts share arrowhead rules?

Why shouldn't they?


Some notes - crossbows do have minimum strength requirements.

Just curious, which books list crossbow strength requirements? Neither the Corebook nor Arsenal seem to say anything about that front.

~Umidori

SR3 main book and the Cannon Companion. It's listed as 3s and 4s across the board.

If he's playing SR4, then SR3 rules don't apply.

Easily adaptable rules, however.

makes one wonder if a string can be custom made for similar effect.

Crossbows are about as loud as a muffled cough.

You can "baffle" the string with fur or pompoms to reduce the vibration.
Waxing the string helps preserve it, but would also make it a little heavier to make it a little quieter.

Crossbows are mostly made of composite materials. Fibreglass or carbon fibre.
There are some tension screws that are metal, as well as the trigger mechanism and spring.
These could be replaced with other materials.

Bolts are pretty concealable. They are about 18 inches long and the diameter of a pencil.

A good crossbow will fire about 400fps. I could never see them get greater than 600 for a giant one.
The punch power is much greater than a bullet because of the mass, but speed doesn't really matter.

Only modification you need for a crossbow is an underbarrel grenadelauncher

to bad those explosive arrowheads work like ex ammo rather then sticky grenades.

Hmm, yeah, given the size of an arrow/bolt I find it surprising that the explosion wouldn't be more along grenade quality.

still, one could always duct tape a grenade to a bolt, and then fire it at someone

heck, given the electronic fuses used in SR, that may well be a viable option.

Replace the head with an aerodynamic mini-grenade.

i think they are aerodynamic in the sense of a frisbee, rather then a arrow.

For some reason I imagined them to be ring shaped... not sure why.

I imagine them ring shaped as well, could have sworn it said that was what it was, and would make sense why we both remember that.

Huh, i always pictured aerodynamic like the little nerf footballs,

http://www.entertainmentearth.com/images/%...CHNR45409lg.jpg

Both designs could be launched by crossbow, although you'd need to have a large enough crossbow and swap out the bolt plate for a specialized version. Maybe suffer some range modifiers. And the launching at least would be silent, if not the detonation.

Also, if you suddenly are using micro-grenades, do they start to suffer scatter? *shudders*

~Umidori

I'd imagine it would cost the same as a silencer.

Here's some crossbow in action, at about 5:43 it picks up.

The usual weapon modifications, as applicable.

Powered Easy Breakdown is great to carry them.

Can a crossbow be silenced? Ask Google.

http://www.google.com/products?q=crossbow+...ved=0CBcQrQQwAA