I've looked under fencing in SR4A and the fencing description is really really vague.
I mentions negotiation being able to be used to raise the restriction rating to make sure that items sell faster, but it only vaguely mentions being able to buy things at lower prices and sell things at a higher than the base 30% value. But nowhere does it actually mention how to go about trying to modify these prices. Does anyone happen to know what books I can look in to find detailed information on this?

Off hand I don't know of any other books. In reading what's printed in SR4a, page 312, it seems more simple to me.

* The selling value is 30% of the base value of whatever the item is. A car that the base cost is 15,000 nuyen can be fenced for 4,500 nuyen.

* To find a seller takes a Negotiation + Charisma (10, 6 hours) extended test. As a higher availability item is likely to be easier to sell because of potential demand you can add the availability rating as bonus dice to the test (i.e. an availability 10 item means Negotiation + Charisma + 10 for a dice pool).

* For every 5% of the base price the character is willing to take a hit on, that's one more bonus die to the test (i.e., selling for 10% instead of 30% nets 4 bonus pool dice).

* Though it's not mentioned, you could apply the reverse and for every 5% more the character wants to sell an item by imposes a -1 penalty (i.e., selling for 50% instead nets a penalty of 4 dice to the pool). This would likely be considered a house rule, but to me is not unreasonable. Especially if the character is greedy and trying to squeeze as much nuyen as he can. It's way harder to find a buyer if the price is really high.

Other modifiers can be applied, depending on the condition of said item to be fenced or other factors (see Street Costs, SR4a, page 312).

For a full on example, let's assume that your runner team managed to score themselves a Mitsubishi Nightsky (SR4a, page 351) in rather good condition (i.e., no dents, cracks, or bullet holes; still runs without making any rattling, clanking, or squealing), which normally retails for 120,000 brand new; there is no availability score for this limo. If a character with Negotiation 4 and Charisma 4 were to try to sell it on his own, he would have a pool of 8 dice for the test and would sell it for 36,000 nuyen. If the character wanted to try and sell it for 24,000 nuyen, then he would have a pool of 10 dice for the test. As the option I presented, if the character were to try and sell it for 60,000 nuyen then he would have a pool of only 4 dice.

Oh, and don't forget that if the character glitches then he's drawn some unwanted attention in trying to sell that limo (maybe the previous owner, or a Lone Star sting operative?).

However, if the character uses a contact to sell the item instead, you use that contact's Charisma + Negotiation + Connection for the test. You also take Connection ×5 as a percentage off the modified selling price. So, in the above example with the Nightsky, if the character sells it for the base 30% through a contact with a Connection of 4, then the character will get only 28,800 nuyen (36,000 less 20% for the contact's "finder's fee"). The price can be modified for bonus dice as normal, but you've gotta tell the contact that first. Street Costs modifiers should still apply, and don't forget the contact's cut.

Now I hope I didn't make this all the harder for you with this data dump.

i would be cautious with the -1 to the dice pool for increasing the dice cost.

i would favor something like applying gremlins to the roll (1 rating per 5% increase) as well as a penalty of 2 dice per 5% at least... a good face character can *easily* throw 20-30 dice, and taking -4 to their dicepool is a joke at that point.

You could take 24 dice off for 150% base price and still roll six dice per test!

"Alright, I buy a Mitsubishi Nightsky for 120,000."
*roll roll roll*
"Okay, I sold it for 180,000 to a rather drunk pig farmer and now I'm buying another one."
*roll roll roll*
"Which I sell twice as fast as the last one to a free spirit who doesn't speak English."
"Someone pass me the rulebook? I need to pick out new bioware..."

~Umidori

Never said it was perfect. Was just thinking equitable to the bonus you can get for dropping the price. Guess it comes from having a team that has never had a very good face. Heck, had one run with a somewhat well built elf face but the player did worse than another who was playing a dwarf mage with a Charisma of 1 and no social skills.

And I probably would add a Charisma + Con (Fast Talking) test with a threshold somehow based on how much over the base cost to try and sell it for more than it's worth, with a failure incurring a greater penalty.

Although I've not tested it, I would not go for -1 dice = +5% at my game.

If the players really wanted to get to something I might consider something along the lines of +1 threshold & +1 interval. (So, going to 50% would be Negotion + Char (14, 10 hours)).

I would probably also limit the number of times they could raise this based upon their negotiation skill. So the character in your above example would be able to go for selling the Nightsky would roll 8 dice (Cha 4 and Neg 4) on a (14, 10 hour) test to sell it for 60,000. However, he could not roll 8 dice for a (15, 11 hour) test to get 55% (or 66,000). By this limit, a character with a Negotiation of 7 would be able to get 65% cost maximum (or 78,000 for the Nightsky).

Also, if you bear in mind the -1 dice per roll after the first, this could alleviate possibility for abuse. It could also be fair to argue, that depending on how the character was trying to fence the goods certain Charisma modifiers either would not apply or you'd have to increase the interval. For example, Tailored Pheromones would not work unless the character was only out pounding the pavement to keep it all face-to-face. Since this is hard in our modern society, I'd say that it either would not happen, or would take a LOT longer in a world with Shadowrun's wireless communication options.

Yes, there are character builds that could be made to try to break this, but if thats how your game and players play, then fencing is really the least of your concerns in my opinion.

Instead of -1 per +5% item price, I'd just resolve it through normal Negotiation. Thus if you want to get more than 30% you'll have to beat the buyen in a negotation test. +5% per net hit is a good rule, and the cap would be different from person to person but never more than 100% total unless there's a crackdown on the item or something. And no you don't get the avilability bonus on the second negotiation test. Fences will generally have a good negotiation skill, and those with the means of buying really expensive items will also probably have better skill. That said, I fully expect a face character to consistantly get at least 50% market price value on most items.

Just keep in mind that whomever is buying it is probably reselling it and thus wants his markup.

These prices and rules reflects that:
1. The runners are not established fixers and fences.
2. They want to sell the items fairly quickly instead of waiting for the best possible offer.
3. The items cannot easily be sold legally on "Ebay"

Otherwise the Face with 20 dice in negotation should easily be able to make profits just buying and selling items on the black market.

You guys are being silly - fencing just uses the Blades skill.

*rimshot*

Thank you, folks! I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

/me looks at his waitress

"Don't run with scissors" is my tip.

Actually... I thought that you looked for Fencing Materials at Home Depot...
I Guess that they are talking about something else...

Keep the Faith

See Swag, 286, and The Availability Test, 312, which also has the Street Costs table. Also Social modifiers on 130, and Favors on 288.

Basically, it works like this. You're rolling Negotiation+charisma, trying to get ten hits, every six hours. The availability of the item is bonus dice for this test. If you glitch, someone bad has noticed what you're trying to do, or something similar. On pricing, the 'default' price is 30%(because everyone pretty much assumes what you're selling is stolen and used) of the item, but may be more depending on what you're selling(street costs table). Once you have the 'going' rate, you may reduce that by 5% per bonus dice you want on the test, if you really need to get rid of something fast.

You may also use a contact to do that, in which case, they roll their charisma and negotiation AND their Connection. Its also not taking up your time, and they're selling the item, not you, which is good if someone is looking for it. In exchange for this, they want you to split the profits. The contact wants their Connection times 5% of the (and i'm not clear here. The going rate, i think) in advance.

If you're Buying, you want Negotiation + Charisma, trying to beat the Availability, with a test-time based on its total cost. Of that cost, you may spread more money around by adding in 25% more per bonus dice you want. As above, glitches are bad, and you may have other people(your contacts) get stuff for with even more dice. Depending on how your GM is feeling, you may have to put up with buying stolen goods, but may also get a discount.


Now that you have the basic idea, favors can be cut. Black Market Pipeline from the Runner's Companion lets you Buy at a 10% discount, sell at +3 dice, and always buy or sell at a beneficial price. If you're on good terms with your contacts, you can try to cut yourself a deal, but it cuts both ways and they might want -you- to cut them a deal. For Business favors, you roll opposed Negotiation + Charisma, with the contact's Loyalty rating being added to the character's dice pool. Each hit on either side shifts the final price by 10%. (as a houserule, I would add the contact's Connection to the contact's dice pool - after all, you're going to -them- for help- or do some addition/subtraction between their connections/loyalty to see who has the edge in the deal )
By extension, you can use this on anyone- if the character doesn't know someone, their loyalty is zero, and may need some convincing to help out.

Hope that helps.

Too long didn't read;
Opposed negotiation + charisma shifts the price by 10%, apply the 'this is stolen and a mostly-broken POS' table to the price first.