SR4 pg 225
Finding a wireless node in hidden mode is more challenging. Even if you know what you're looking for, you must still succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Scan (4) test. If you're just scanning for hidden nodes in genereal, or trying to pick the hidden nodes out from the non-hidden one, make the same extended test noted above butwith a much higher threshold: 15+

If I'm in an area of average matrix traffic and my tehcnomancer, Diagatsu, wants to hack the PAN of an enemy that's running in hidden mode, I have to hit a threshold of 15+ with EW+Scan just to find his network?

treshold is 4 to pick out that exakt hidden node. 15+ is for an extended test, and you get all hidden nodes in th area. you will have to sort your findings after the extended test

So long as i have some piece of identifying information (that guy/drone's network) I can roll vs 4.
The second line is for doing a site survey, getting all pan's (hidden or not) in an area.

That's way better.

To me knowing who you are looking for is not knowing what you are looking for. Knowing the phyiscal location of a node does not help with finding this node via the matrix. Physical Topography has nothing to do with matrix topography. As such you would need to have the offending user's access ID to use the lower threshold.

But using Scan isn't finding something via the Matrix. It's a hardware matter - you are physically scanning the area for a hidden device (or all hidden devices), not typing their name into ShadowGoogle^tm. Once you 'find' the node you can log on/hack in and do what you need to do, and since Scan only works in (mutual?) signal range you're not doing that 'via the Matrix' either.

As I understand it, if you had their access ID you wouldn't even need to know what city they were in.

If you don't have it , all you can get is: there are m nodes in reach, n of which are hidden, o passive and p active.

AFAIK finding a hidden node isn't restricted to a certain area either. Nodes always work as repeaters for signals.

SR4 225, Intercepting Wireless Signals
[Wireless signals are spread over the airwaves.] This makes it possible for you to even intercept traffic within a specific network—such as the PAN traffic between Mr. Johnson’s commlink and other devices on his network. To perform an Intercept Wireless Signal action, make an Electronic Warfare + Sniffer (3) Test. Once the signal is intercepted, you can monitor the traffic and even copy/record/forward it without making any more Intercept Wireless Signal actions. If you want to block out some part of the traffic or add in your own, you must make an Edit action.

So, in my original example, I'm not really lookking to find him on the node, I'm looking to intercept his signal? Once I intercept the signal and decrypt it I can start spoofing commands to the stuff on his PAN.

I would only need to locate him on the node if I was going to engage him in Cyber Combat?

(edit: removed gratuitous use of "right?")

So, um, you reckon that the Scan program doesn't tell you anything except popultation numbers, but it will work over, what, every populated zone on the planet all at once? Sorry, I'm just not getting how you envisage Scan being useful (unless you don't ...?).

Using the Matrix wirelessly only works at all by invisibly hijacking a trail of devices between your node and the target node with each link in the chain being within mutual signal range of the next, but this doesn't apply to Scan - you only have permission to use your own wireless capability in this way because it's using hardware. To detect a hidden node you need the right priviliges on a wireless device in range of it, which you won't have if you need to route your commands through a series of random nodes between you and the target.

It was my understanding that a successful scanning would actually get you the access ID if nothing else, since it must be acquiring some form of identifying data to tell it apart from all the other nodes in range, but I'm prepared to cede on this one if someone will put me right.

Here's how I understand the application of Scan:

Specific-Scan Example
There's a guy across the room whose link I want to get into. My link isn't picking up any broadcasts from him, but I'm sure he's got one. I scan his immediate vicinity with my commlink, roll 4+ hits and ah ha! There it is, I knew it. And, as we're in mutual signal range, I don't need anything else from any other wireless device anywhere, I can just start messing with him directly.

General-Scan Example
A site I've just infiltrated seems completely deserted but my intel implied drone security. I run a general scan from my commlink, glad that out here in the sticks I don't have to sort my findings from the general public etc. It seems to take ages but eventually nodes start popping up on the list. I don't know where they are or what they're doing, but I know they are there and the omnidirectional signals from my link will find them.

It's also pretty clearly spelled out under detecting a hidden node.

It states "you must be aware of the node or at least have a good guess of where it should be located (for example, your not detecting a node for Mr. Johnson but you are pretty sure he has a PAN, or when you can see the security drone but its operating in hidden mode."

This really vividly suggests that you are targeting a small area for the search within range of (sight?).

The second part states specifically, "You may instead make a general search for hidden nodes that are within mutual Signal range." the key here is they must be within mutual signal range for you to scan for them. This leaves no room for scanning the entire matrix for hidden nodes or anything like that.

I think AROspider is right here. Matrix has nothing to do with it, you are simply scanning for radio signals. IIRC you can also know the general direction and distance to each signal, thus you can separate pans from other nodes by looking at the physical world. If out of sight it will be mostly guesswork.

Now that I've got his hidden PAN in my sights I roll to intercept (EW+Sniffer (3)) and then decrypt (Decrypt+Response (crypt x2))
scoring the appropriate number of successes, I now can see what's on his PAN. From here I can start my offensive; Edit, Spoof Commands, Crash OS, et all.

At what point is he aware that I'm in his base?
Asuming this is correct, What's on a generic Sam's PAN that's woth messing with other than the comlink itself?

If his firewall catches you on the exploit attempt, immediately.
If not, then he'll probably notice once you start killin his doodz.

I assume that the exploit attempt is when I try to gain access to an individual device?

Either way, what's worth mucking about with? Are DNI'ed devices still part of your PAN?

You should be able to track down what wireless devices their node is accessing, and if you know the strength and their signal, and if any of those wireless devices are stationary, you should be able to track them to a very specific finite radius? At least this seems reasonably probable to me. To track them you'd need to hack the lists of all the nodes the wireless devices in the area are serving however, and compare that list to nodes actively broadcasting their ID's, to narrow down who is not. The looking at who isn't you can start scanning for those ID's. Or at least the idea should work in theory.

Well, if you throw the Mute option on your program, then it'll delay the alarm for a full Combat Turn. In that case, you can try and crash the firewall before alarms ring. Just pour on the juice. Also, just a tip I figured out recently, you can stuff a Rating 6 Radio Signal Scanner into just about anything, like 1 capacity slot on your armor, and it functions like a Sniffer Program of equal rating. Oh yeah, almost forgot, it's 25¥ per rating, so it'll replicate a 6000¥ program for only 150¥. Enjoy that bit of nonsense.

Lunavoco: DNI means Direct Neural Interface, as is wired to your meat in some way. Now a device can be controlled via a DNI adapter (trodes), but things like cyberware do not actuallyrequire a wireless signal. You could have a half dozen commlinks implanted and still not emit a single Hz of wireless energy if the radios were turned off and the links were set to go through your datajack's wired line only.
Not convenient, but possible.

Mordinvan: The track program/trace user action already pinpoints the user's physical location to within 50 meters. I suspect this means the networking part of a device is a separate system with multiple antennas and processing to do location aware mesh routing independent of the device's system , the toy at rating 6 costs half what theand other features. That way a small hack like trace would be possible without compromising the rest of the node's security.

Saint Sithney: Yeah, certain things are wonkey. Like a rating 6 emotitoy costs 600Y and has level 6 empathy software, while the software by itself costs 3000Y for rating 6 (not to mention a rating 4 social activesoft is 4000Y per skill, requires cyberware to be useful, and can't get to level 6).
Of course the radio scanner can't be used for anything beyond intercepting wireless signals, it's still insane.

I've always assumed the Radio Signal Scanner where used to Scan signals... not intercept them. But that is what it says strangely enough. However the first line indicates it can work as a scanner as well:



So it can even pinpoint the location.. that's good. That's not what a Sniffer program does however, it merely Intercepts, and is supposed to be used for spying on people, wiretapping the wireless way.



So is it actually supposed to mean Scan instead? Or can or work like both? After all, the first 2 sentences pretty much describes the use of the Scan program.

I have been reading a lot of debate over DNI (see all the skinlink posts) but I have a question about what you say here. You mention trodes being an adapter for DNI. While I have read all about Datajacks being DNI connections for just about anything, the only refrence that I have seen about trodes are only that it is the interface for a non-implanted simrig. Nowhere about being able to plug it into your commlink for DNI, nor any other gear at all other than being a simrig interface tool. Could you refrence where these additional capabilities of trodes might be mentioned so I can understand them more fully?

I'm cool on what DNI is from my SR3 days. Back then (last week...) this wasn't an issue because you couldn't hack cyberware. I'm just thinking of what a street sam might have on him that I can mess with. For the above post I was thinking more along the lines of cyberarms and other non-standalone items. I assumed they would be DNIed by default, less they be completely useless.

Let's try this from a different angle:

1) I make the above tests, plus I Exploit past the firewall. So far, I'm in like Flyn. I know he has a cyberarm. Assuming the arm's built-in wireless is off (and why wouldn't it be?) can I get to it, even though it's controlled only through DNI?
2) Lets say I just crash his comlink while we're in combat. Will the average non-rigger, non-hacker care? I mean, his Smart Link is likely not connected wirelessly, so that's safe. Is he just going to say "Damn, my radio went out" and carry on shooting unhindered?


As in the Motoko post elsewhere on the boards, I'm trying to see what I can do now that I'm in his comlink.

Page 217 SR4A


And actually it says trodes are included in the worn simrig package, not that they are exclusive to it. The entry on trodes says they pair with a sim module to allow the user to experience simsense.

1) If the arm is set to not communicate with anything, then no. A smart sam will keep anything that can be exclusively DNI controlled off his PAN (wireless, wired, or skinlink), so his spurs, implanted non-smartlinked gun, and the arm itself will stay offline completely. But anything else, like biomonitor, commlink, scanner system, ect will all be available on his commlink and available for messing with.
Note I said smart sam. Smart sams last longer because leaving your nice and chromey new arm on your PAN so it can automatically update you social networks with "I'm crushing steel girders between my shiney metal fingers!" is an invitation for pretty much any hacker to invade your personal space and crank your arm's sensory system up to overload, or set his arms to redline and watch him rip his own arms off opening a door.
2)Crash his commlink, crash communication between devices. This really depends on the situation. It will likely break the link between their smartgun and their goggles/eyes, drop them from any communications they had with their team (tacsoft network, DNI communications with their friends, feeds from security cameras the team's hacker may be providing).

Ok, personally, i'm a big proponent of not assuming you can do things, just because the books don't say you can't. I was hoping that since in the description of trodes it only mentions being able to use them to experience simsense, I think it says record as well, but I can't remember, and basically all around interact with your simrig, which also allows you to do hot and cold VR as well, that it might have stated somewhere else, like in unwired perhaps, that trodes could be used for anything else other than interaction with a simrig.

iirc, you cant crash a firewall. Its not a program that runs on top of OS, but rather alongside it (tho not limited by response).