So my Technomancer threads a Complex Form and gets two hits. My CF went from a rating 6 to rating 8. Because sustaining a threaded CF requires attention, I recieve -2 to all dice pools while maintaining this higher rating. Isnt' this a 0 net gain?

I suppose it's cool for threading CFs that the target rolls against like stealth, but for CFs you use it seem counter-productive.

Edit: Sigh. If anyone can tell me how to correct the title to read worth instead of wirth, I'd appreciate it.

SR4A rules specifically state that the -2 sustaining penalty does not apply to the use of the threaded CF so you get the full bonus.

For example, if you had two threaded CFs at once then the use of each would suffer a -2 penalty (for the other one) and all other actions would be at -4.

Actually, the -2 modifier does not apply to using the threaded CF.



-CJ

Ah. I'm on SR4 1st printing. That'll explain it. Thanks!

even then, it would sometimes be worth it.

for example, if you have a rating 1 registered sprite handy to sustain the threading. or if you're using attack, black hammer, blackout, data bomb, or stealth, all of which have rating-based advantages other than simply adding to dice pool. or if you have certain echos from unwired.

but, as has been pointed out, you can thread (as part of another action, by the way) and not suffer the sustaining modifier for that one action.

Mostly a bad example, as dropping a thread and restarting it are as close to non-actions as you can get. By RAW you can thread your attack program to attack, then drop it and thread armor when IC attacks back.

IIRC

True, but what about Stealth which is useful to have running continuously? Or cryptoanalysis where the Decrypt program runs by itself?
What if you want to keep your armour up in case of a sudden attack from a stealthed icon?

They are indeed non-actions, thought technically it's by RAnotW. I must say I would start to feel uncomfortable about allowing a TM to pick up and drop threaded CFs willy-nilly as it just doesn't sit right when talking about drawing strength from an ethereal and external force with which the character has a quasi-religious relationship. Call it a house rule if you like, but when it comes up I think I'll play it that the TM has to decide which threaded CFs he wants during the Declare Actions part of his action phase and does all the rolling then (including applying sustaining modifiers to each extra threading roll).

Agreed, I think it's silly, and I've heard (mind, only heard, and I doubt I could find where I read it) that a TM can reactively thread a CF.

Eg. attacked by a stealth icon, he threads Armor when he goes to make the soak roll, despite being unaware of it until the attack happens.

I know fading is relatively easy to resist, but is it really that negligible? There's always the risk of rolling poorly... It may be slight, but it seems to me that the threat of fading should put something of a damper on constant threading.

Pretty much. I don't recall what the value is offhand, but its pretty trivial to ignore fading if I recall correctly. I think Resonance is one of the two stats you resist with (it'd be like letting a mage resist with Magic + Willpower and then be surprised when the Magic 8 mage resists all drain ever).

Let's say you thread a complex form from 4 to 8 - you probably don't have 8 Resonance so you're resisting 4P with Willpower + Resonance.

If the average TM has 6 resonance and 5 willpower (which strikes me as kind of high - I know the sample characters aren't paragons of optimization, but the sample TM has resonance 5 and willpower 3) then on average, you'll resist all that fading. There's still a decent chance (if I remember right, it works out to \sum_{i=1}^3 (11 choose i)*(1/3)^i*(2/3)^(11-i), which is about 46%) that you'll take some damage. With those odds, I'm not going to be threading left and right.

(It is entirely possible that my math is wrong.)

Or you thread for less.

"The technomancer can choose to discard some of the hits he scores."

Missed that bit.

Threading is borked you can keep threading till you hit the plus you need no worries. Really I then to house rule you pick the rating then roll for threading. Or that you can only roll it once per pass depending on my games power lvl and style.

That seems reasonable - is the bonus you're shooting for the threshhold of the Software + Resonance test?

yeah. As you can taking 100000000000 times in no time why not just pick save the annoying no I need al I can get for this hack wait an hour or tow while i thread moments.

You'd need to be pretty relaxed about RAW to allow a CF to be threaded multiple times at once. It doesn't specifically say you can't thread a threaded CF, but there is absolutely nothing saying or hinting that you can and if it is allowed the mechanics fall apart completely.

If you did allow it then you don't need your house rule at all. The TM simply says "I'd like this CF to be at maximum rating (Res x 2) with options x, y and z and I'll have it without any fading damage thanks". What actually happens is the TM threads his CF a first time, buying as many hits with his threading dice pool as can be bought off with his fading resistance dice pool (at 4 dice to 1 hit it would probably be only 1 or 2) then buys the damage off. As this took no time at all he then immediately threads it again for another autosoakable increase and so on until he's maxed it. He will lose two dice from his threading pool after the first time (since he has to sustain the CF*) but the penalty won't increase any further because he's only sustaining the one CF.

There, any CF from 0 to max whenever and as often as you like and that is why you aren't allowed to thread a threaded CF.

* You could go even more broken if you want to argue that as no time has elapsed the threaded CF can't be distracting him yet and waive the sustaining penalty.

My point is that not that you can thead a treaded CF (though wo echo down the line you dont even get the -2) its that rolling the first time is uses less. As if you fail it you can reroll for no penitaly as you go I'll use 0 of those hits.

Ah, gotcha.

Well in that case the accumulating -2 DP modifier for successive attempts at the same task applies. Don't like your first roll? Fine, lose two dice and try again. Still not up to scratch? Ok, lose another two and try again. Not got enough dice left? That's because you set your sights too high this time. Never mind, you can try again in another (GM-discretionary time interval).

House rule idea: instead of ignoring hits to reduce fading, unused hits add to the fading resistance DP (with fading DV remaining unreduced). Not sure I like it, but might work for some tables.

I wouldn't allow this - it massively reduces the need for a TM to plan ahead and the impact of the sustaining modifier.

Besides, it would effectively enable a character to make situation-altering decisions between his action phases and that can only be detrimental to a game.

I agree fully. The rules, however, do not (in some interpretations).