Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: how does forbidden bioware ever get found?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
makari
I was debating getting some forbidden bioware, and went to see what the risk would be like, how it gets detected, etc...


but I can't find anything, the millimeter wave cyberware scanner doesn't detect biological things, so what gets used to find or detect forbidden bioware? or is all the emphasis on catching the transport and implant of it because once it's in is it near impossible to realistically find?
Nifft
If it's something that stays inside you and doesn't mess with the environment, it would be very hard to detect, except via autopsy.

If it's something that goes out in the environment and does stuff -- like pheromones -- it could be detected more easily.
Ascalaphus
I think I read somewhere, that bioware/geneware scanners were supposed to be in Arsenal or Augmentation. But since the release dates of those two got shuffled around, they fell through the cracks.
Lansdren
You also have the possibility of it being seen in the astral. As far as I remember a mage (or adept with astral vision) could see it with enough hits.
nezumi
M&M lists this out. There's a scanner that takes 60 minutes to work.

For a clinic, the TN to detect bioware is 6 for basic, and 10 for cultured. Hospitals have a -1 to that TN. 1 success determines the type of implant, and 2 tells you the manufacturer and ratings. No successes reveals the character's Bio Index, but nothing else.
Brazilian_Shinobi
With a good PET/CT scan you could detect some anomalies in a body, but to really know if the anomaly is really an anomaly or a bioware, I think you would need a more intrusive method of investigation. For instance, bone density augmentation could be seen in a CT scan but you MGHT not be able to tell the difference between a low rating bioware or someone who naturally developed denser bones. Now, other kinds of bio can be notice right away, supra thyroid gland gives you another thyroid gland entirely. Now, if the extra thyroid gland was put close enough to the natural one, the PET scan might show one BIG thyroid gland.
Then it all comes down to the statistics of false positives. How many un-augmented person denser bones? How much show a big thyroid gland? How much show BOTH denser bones and thyroid gland?
makari
so it's all pretty in depth stuff tho

not like cyberware, where you have to worry about walking through a scanner or something and being caught

for them to find bio (that doesn't emit something beyond your body) would take an in depth search, likely not going to be taken without some other reason to stop and check you
nezumi
In most cases. M&M also specifies the person checking gets to make a Perception test for bioware that might be visible (such as a horn, cat's eyes, etc.)
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Mar 12 2010, 07:50 AM) *
You also have the possibility of it being seen in the astral. As far as I remember a mage (or adept with astral vision) could see it with enough hits.


An Assensing test with four or more hits is the only real "security checkpoint" means of detecting bioware as listed. I don't see that coming up too often.

I'd think that there would be tests for specific bioware though. A blood test, for instance, should nail a Superthyroid gland. A trode-based neural check should show increased activity specific to a Synaptic Booster. A chemical sniffer should bust Tailored Pheremones. And on and on.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 12 2010, 02:41 PM) *
An Assensing test with four or more hits is the only real "security checkpoint" means of detecting bioware as listed. I don't see that coming up too often.

I'd think that there would be tests for specific bioware though. A blood test, for instance, should nail a Superthyroid gland. A trode-based neural check should show increased activity specific to a Synaptic Booster. A chemical sniffer should bust Tailored Pheremones. And on and on.


But would the scan system be able to differentiate the Cerebral boosted (2) Logic 2 guy (for a total of Logic 4) vs. the Natural attribute of 4? Seems to me there would be no real way to differentiate that...

Keep the Faith
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 12 2010, 04:51 PM) *
But would the scan system be able to differentiate the Cerebral boosted (2) Logic 2 guy (for a total of Logic 4) vs. the Natural attribute of 4? Seems to me there would be no real way to differentiate that...

Keep the Faith


Well a (stupid expensive) CAT scan could show uneven neural density, but Cerebral boosters aren't regulated.
The real problem in sniffing out true forbidden ware would be something like damage compensators and pain editors. You'd probably have to hit a guy with a pain inducer of some sort and do a spinal tap looking for Substance P or some other completely ridiculous procedure.

Hmmm... now that I look into it, the same neurotransmitters that handle pain also handle inflammation. You could probably slap a dude and see if his face goes red. Of course, there would be more elegant solutions for this test, but the idea of "Could you please step over here sir?" *SLAP* "Just one moment while we process your results. Thank you for your patience."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 12 2010, 08:02 PM) *
Well a (stupid expensive) CAT scan could show uneven neural density, but Cerebral boosters aren't regulated.
The real problem in sniffing out true forbidden ware would be something like damage compensators and pain editors. You'd probably have to hit a guy with a pain inducer of some sort and do a spinal tap looking for Substance P or some other completely ridiculous procedure.

Hmmm... now that I look into it, the same neurotransmitters that handle pain also handle inflammation. You could probably slap a dude and see if his face goes red. Of course, there would be more elegant solutions for this test, but the idea of "Could you please step over here sir?" *SLAP* "Just one moment while we process your results. Thank you for your patience."


In my opinion, if you are submitting to a (Stupid Expensive) CAT Scan/MRI you probably have more issues than whether or not you have illegal bioware in your body...

According to Augmentation (page 125, Detecting Implants and Enhancements) it is quite difficult to setect augmentations other than Cybernetic or Nanoware systems. Diagnostic Checks can be performed at an interval of 1 Hour with a threshold of 20 for the detection of Implants and Enhancements... for a Medical Profile adequate enough for Implantation Surgery your thresholds range from 8 to 24, depending upon the grade being implanted, or the Gene therapy being performed... as such, I do not see the average Bioware system actually being detected mundanely very often outside of a medical facility...

Of course, a magician can assense the target: Threshold 3 for Beta Grade Cybernetics, Threshold 4 for Beta Grade Cybernetics and Bioware Systems, and Threshold 5 for Deltaware Implants, Genetreatments or Nanotechnology... so a Magician can perform that trick a bit easier than the technical side can, but it is still a bit difficult to do reliably...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith
Ascalaphus
I thin it'd make sense to base the threshold for a scanner on the Essence consumption of the bioware. The lower the Essence cost, the more cunningly it's apparently been integrated, and the harder to detect. This would of course be for the general detection of bioware; you could have more powerful tests to locate specific bioware based on their effects.
Method
Just a couple points on CT: Modern scanners are ultra fast (like less than 20 seconds) and a study doesn't cost nearly as much as they did a few decades ago when the tech came out. A significant potion of the cost in medical settings is the machine (which would be really old tech by 2070), but there is also the cost of paying a radiologist to read it (which is also the main factor that contributes to the time involved). With 2070s tech and specialized agents to do the reading in a matter of milliseconds, CT could be a viable option, and would be able to detect just about any bioware.
LurkerOutThere
Also if one knows what to look for the effects of bioware would almost certainly show up in a blood simple, possibly even a skin or hair sample. Now certainly these are fairly invasive but in the draconian world of shadowrun a building could require a drop of blood before you enter the premises.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 14 2010, 05:22 PM) *
Just a couple points on CT: Modern scanners are ultra fast (like less than 20 seconds) and a study doesn't cost nearly as much as they did a few decades ago when the tech came out. A significant potion of the cost in medical settings is the machine (which would be really old tech by 2070), but there is also the cost of paying a radiologist to read it (which is also the main factor that contributes to the time involved). With 2070s tech and specialized agents to do the reading in a matter of milliseconds, CT could be a viable option, and would be able to detect just about any bioware.



I would agree with you, but there is that one, small, niggling point that is brought up in Augmentation... Threshold 20/1 Hour Interval... we are not talking real world logic here, we are talking about the game... In the game, the medical standards have already been set... it takes a Diagnostic Profile workup, with High Thresholds and a significant time interval...

And I am sorry... the last CT scan I went through was not done in 20 Seconds... more like 30 minutes... and the MRI's were even longer

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Mar 14 2010, 05:30 PM) *
Also if one knows what to look for the effects of bioware would almost certainly show up in a blood simple, possibly even a skin or hair sample. Now certainly these are fairly invasive but in the draconian world of shadowrun a building could require a drop of blood before you enter the premises.



Why would a blood draw or hair sample detect Bone Density Augmentation, or any other number of Bioware Augmentations?

Keep the Faith
Method
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 14 2010, 06:38 PM) *
And I am sorry... the last CT scan I went through was not done in 20 Seconds... more like 30 minutes... and the MRI's were even longer
Then it clearly wasn't one of the newer scanners. LINK

From the above:
"The fastest scanning speed in CT (43 cm/s) and a temporal resolution of 75 ms, enable for example complete scans of the entire chest region in just 0.6 seconds."

MRIs still take a long time tho...

And to answer your other question, I could see bone density augmentation altering the levels of phosphate, calcitonin and/or parathyroid hormone in your blood. The test wouldn't be 100% specific, but it might give a message like "High Index of Suspicion: Bone Density Augmentation" or what have you. Hair... well not very useful in this example.

But like you said, the almighty canon has spoken. Maybe they will bring medicine inline with modern science in SR5 the way they did wireless technology in SR4... smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 14 2010, 08:46 PM) *
Then it clearly wasn't one of the newer scanners. LINK

From the above:
"The fastest scanning speed in CT (43 cm/s) and a temporal resolution of 75 ms, enable for example complete scans of the entire chest region in just 0.6 seconds."

MRIs still take a long time tho...

And to answer your other question, I could see bone density augmentation altering the levels of phosphate, calcitonin and/or parathyroid hormone in your blood. The test wouldn't be 100% specific, but it might give a message like "High Index of Suspicion: Bone Density Augmentation" or what have you. Hair... well not very useful in this example.

But like you said, the almighty canon has spoken. Maybe they will bring medicine inline with modern science in SR5 the way they did wireless technology in SR4... smile.gif


No, The Cat Scan was a few years ago...

In the Long run, I prefer the route that Shadowrun has gone (and I hope that they continue)... that would be divergence from what is normal in our world... I thought that Wireless capabilities would be nice in Shadowrun (and Cyberpunk 2020 always had it from the beginning) and was glad that they finally integrated that into Shadowrun, but I am completely fine with the Medical Tech base currently in existence in the game.

I do not mind that some things in Shadowrun are completely different from the real world... some tech lags behind, and some tech far outshines what is commonly available... It is very interesting to me that the medical profession is vastly different than what we have today... I don't need Shadowrun to be analagous to Reality...

Just Sayin', I know not everyone likes it that way...

Keep the Faith
Method
I can certainly appreciate that. To paraphrase the old saying: "Sometimes you gotta break [some science] to make [science fiction]".

The divergence between the SR timeline and our own is often helpful from a suspension of disbelief perspective, but the fact is that when I play a game base on RL technology and science (as opposed to a purely fantasy setting) I want it to make some sense. Sometimes knowing too much about something in RL detracts from the game. For me its medicine and guns, but the computing rules, for example, don't bug me because I don't really know that much about real world computers. To each their own, I guess.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Augmentation p.125)
Detecting Implants and Enhancements
Though millimeter-wave cyberware scanners can be used
to detect cyberware (p. 255, SR4) and nano-scanners to detect
nanoware and nanocybernetics (p. 112), enhancements such as
bioware and genetic treatments can be quite difficult to detect
without extensive biochemical analysis.
At the gamemasterís discretion,
diagnostic profiles are likely to turn up some (but not all)
enhancements.
A special diagnostics check, however, can be performed with
the specific intention of identifying all traces of medtech enhancements:
checking for nanites, searching for type O tissue, analyzing
cell decay that might indicate genetic manipulations, and so forth.
Handle this like the Diagnostics Test above, but with an interval
of 1 hour.


Diagnosis Table
Procedure Diagnosis Test Threshold
Cosmetic Surgery 4
Organ Transplant 8
Implant Surgery/Repair
Basic 8
Alphaware 12
Betaware 16
Deltaware 24
Gene Therapy 16
Nanoware Installation 16
Implant/Enhancement Detection 20
Method
Silliness.
MadDogMike
On the semi-related subject of cyber detection, how much detail can a scanner get on stuff that's part of the Capacity of a cyber part? If someone has, say, smartlink or retinal duplication, can a milliwave radar really detect that or does it just spit out "cybereyes"? Or is that a function of needing extra net hits? Just not sure how a radar is supposed to get details inside the implant (unless it's just another case of FASA Science at work I guess).

On the subject of bioware detection, apparently at least one option is to use nanotech Etchers according to Augmentation (pg. 114) which specifically lists one use of them as "marking bioware". That would make it visible to standard security MAD and/or MRI apparently. Might be legally obtained restricted bioware is supposed to have it labeled like that so it's detectable by security; would kinda suck from their perspective if they didn't know someone had synaptic boosting or a pain dampner until said person was ripping them up. Not that shadowrunners don't probably skip that little step normally...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 14 2010, 09:10 PM) *
I can certainly appreciate that. To paraphrase the old saying: "Sometimes you gotta break [some science] to make [science fiction]".

The divergence between the SR timeline and our own is often helpful from a suspension of disbelief perspective, but the fact is that when I play a game base on RL technology and science (as opposed to a purely fantasy setting) I want it to make some sense. Sometimes knowing too much about something in RL detracts from the game. For me its medicine and guns, but the computing rules, for example, don't bug me because I don't really know that much about real world computers. To each their own, I guess.



Yeah, For me it is Weapons (Civilian and Military Grade), Weapon Systems, Explosives (Ditto) and such... I usually just grin and bear it and move along...

Keep the Faith
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012