Heya All

I've got a 9th Printing of FASA's Shadowrun Third Edition, and I'm looking for the game effects of Boosted Reflexes. I've checked the description, and it doesn't list anything as far as bonuses to react/quickness or init. The table shows they come in 3 flavors (Level 1-3), but again, no additional info.

Can someone let me know what they do? I've got a new Fanpro edition on order, and it'll be here in about a week.

Runs With Scissors

It's on the table at the top of P303. Why they didn't list it in the text description is beyond me though.

Well, that would explain it. Leave it to me to mangle a Perception check to find something in the book! Thanks!

RWS

aren't boosted reflexes compatible with a synaptic(sp) accelerator?

yes, yes they are. And so are reaction enhancers. Unfortunately, apart from the reaction enhancers if you fit a reflex trigger, you can't turn either of those things off so you'd be hyper ALL THE TIME. You'll never get through a meet without trying to take the johnsons' head off every time he goes for his wallet to pick up the tab...

You wouldnt need to ever turn off a synaptic accelerator anyway, because it doesnt have the negative effects caused by boosted or wired reflexes. Those negative effects are only caused by cybernetic enhancement.

Besides the negative effects come from bonus dice so the Enhancers wouldn't be deteramentle either.

As for Boosted and Synaptic together yes, but i wouldn't hold it against a Gm for saying no.

Despite having used that table many times, I still have trouble finding it and wind up relying on memory most of time.

This has resulted in 3 or more variations of increases for the cyberware before someone noticed...

And as stated above there are no penalties to +reaction from cybernetic reaction enhancers. I chose to rectify that oversight as a house rule and add in a +1 to the Twitch Test TN for every 2 or 3 points of cybered reaction, to be agreed upon by all before a game.

That reminds me. What's the rule on stacking enhancements? No cyberware enhancements stack with each other, but they all stack with all bioware and all bioware enhancements stack with each other?

Well, Bioware counts as 'natural'. Cyberware counts as augmented. You ccan only get one augmented bonus at a time, be it cyber or magic. And while most the attributes that bioware augments have upper limits by race, but reaction and initive do not.

So, synaptic accelerators give you a natural bonus to your initive. And at best, you could get a +2 +4d6 from boosted 3 and synaptic 2. compared to wired +6 +3d6, its about the same on average. +4 and a trigger, or +1d6.

Synaptic is the only chance someone with boosted 1 has for an 'upgrade'.

This might be a little off topic, but....

Regarding boosted reflexes, do any of you _not_ apply the whole 'twitchiness' effect to some types of initiative enhancements?

The reason I asked:

I've always thought of the various reflex systems as broken up into two tasks: First, there's the simple communication speed of your nerves. Second, there's the speed at which your spinal cord and brain stem process information to generate your reflexive actions.

Boosted: uses _your_ natural reflex processing, just speeds up communications.
Synaptic Acc: much like boosted, uses your own natural reflex processing, but speeds up communications Just does it in a complementary way.
Reaction enhancers: Modifies reflex processing. Does nothing for communications.
Wired: Modifies reflex processing _and_ speeds up communications. Basically replaces your entire reflex system.
Move-by-wire: Messes you totally up. But you can _move_.

For some reason, I've always associated the twitchiness phenomenon with those systems that modify or replace your processing, because the 'twitch' isnt due to moving faster as much as having innappropiate reactions for the situation.

Thoughts?

Boosted reflexes is one of those weird bits of 'ware that don't make a whole lot of sense.

I'm happy with the twitch factor on Boosted just for the enhanced reaction aspects to the 'ware.

It helps me more believably explain the twitch element to boosted/wired and not the synaptic accelerators.

-Siege

For me, synaptic accelerator is different from the other reaction/reflexes mods, because it only affect communications inside the brain, between neurons. This bioware speed up the decision process.

The others speed up communications between the spinal chrod and the rest of the body, but (IMHO) not between the spinal chord and the brain. Except for the synaptic accelerator, none reaction/reflex enhancers affect the brain. That's, for me, the reason behind the "overeaction" rules: as the reflex "pipeline" is boosted at the exception fo the brain part, the brain has to constantly catch up the reactions of the body.


That were my 2 cents.

To me boosted should speed-up the descision-making process too. It's a chemical treatment, thus it would probably affect the entire nervous system.

This is the way I work it in my games:

Synaptic Accelerator - No "twitch-factor". It merely decreses distances between synapses, tweaks the myelin sheathing, etc across the body. Not enough to effect decision making (no bonuses in surprise situations, i.e., reaction).

Boosted Reflexes - No twitchy here, either. A primarily chemical treatment, modifies the chemical transmitters in the nervous system, increases adrenaline output, increases bodies responses to adrenaline, etc. Just speeds things up in general. Top end systems are tweaked to provide broad-spectrum bonuses It's still "all natural" in the end, though. No more jumpy afterwords than before. Just if you're a naturally twitchy person, you'll be faster in your reactions.

Reaction Enhancers - rework of the spine to improve transmission speeds along spinal cord. Full rating 6 effectively replaces the main portions of the spinal cord with fiber optics and translation relays. No more jumpy with them than without. Same as boosted in this respect.

Wired Reflexes - An effective "short-circuit" across the decision-making centers of the brain. Basically, your brain can't perform the proper real-time analysis to reach proper reaction conclusions. Instead, you perform whatever is the apparent correct response. To a runner, a bang is a gunshot (whether it was a car backfiring, someone dropping a book on the floor or a real gunshot). The "twitch test" is to see if you can successfully stop yourself once your brain catches up with your actions and figures out what's going on. The higher levels allow less time for analysis; faster reactions, but less time to stop them.

Move-by-wire - Reworks the entire motor cortex. Allows a normal decision making process, but there is close to no delay before action. Additionally, completely changes the way movement and actions are taken. I've always described it as somewhat robot-like. Maximum acceleration and deceleration of limbs, under precise computer control. You don't slowly pick up the glass from the table; you snatch it at maximum speed, with computer-controlled precision. Hell yes, it's obvious. It's also why you can get big quickness bonuses, as well as bonuses to stealth and athletics. Incredibly smooth actions, with no accidental deviations. Your brain says "move", the computer intercepts the signal, and tells the muscles itself. Again, no twitch (everything is too controlled), but the nature of the movements are totally alien.

Is the response to addrenaline a purely physical reaction? I thought it affected the mental state too. In any case: Characters pumped full of addrenaline will usually be on addrenaline highs and feel either slightly euphoric or violent depending on their mood. Don't quote me on that though... I'll need to check with my flatmate who's a pharmacy student.

Namergon -
I believe that any symptoms of that sort are drastically overshadowed by all the rest of the custom chem-cocktails that are going to be part of this treatment. I, for one, don't get twitchy at all when I'm on an adrenaline rush. I react faster, but I'm no more or less alert and conscious of my surroundings. I'm no more twitchy than a normal day. It should definately be possible as part of the procedure to modify the body's overall reactions to the standard 3-F hormone-shot.

I see other parts of the treatment involving better neuro-muscular transmitters, treatments to improve fast-twitch muscle count and fast-twitch rates, and improved anaerobic capabilites. By anaerobic, I'm referring to the ability of the body to function at high activity levels for short periods of time without increased oxygen flow, not an ability to function on lower oxygen overall. It's the ability to function at a higher level of muscular activity while the cardio system is working to improve blood-oxygen levels.

On an entirely seperate note, I want to say that the "Twitch Rules" sections of both Cybertechnology (where I was first made aware of the idea), and of M&M specifically mentions wired reflexes, but nothing else. That's part of my reasoning for all the other systems not causing problems. Since all the systems existed at the time of the writing of both sections, and there being precedent for "if we don't mention it, it's allowed" (see the Synaptic/Boosted errata)...

[edit] Lilt - Adrenaline causes more than a purely physical reaction. However, I'm not suggesting that boosted reflexes would cause a permenent adrenaline high (which is the impression I'm getting from your post). Merely that, in time of need, the body is able to produce more adrenaline (or a "better" substitute), and distribute it across the body faster and more efficiently. [end edit]

It seems so.

Man & Machine. Page 45. Effects of increased reflexes. First sentence. Read it.

hey maybe i'm a newb here, and i know i am. my friends and i are playing for the first time. its a blast really, but i have a question in the way of int pass.


To me, the initive passes seem way to overpowerd.

is there some kind of limit to them, or are characters just super fast all the time?

in more specific terms.


can a character with init passes use them EVERY combat turn? are the int passes for wired reflexes refreshable every combat turn? cuz to me it seems characters with them can act a shit ton in one combat turn and it makes other characters without them seem obsolete. i mean, if i have a character that can fire 6 shotgun rounds and preform 3 complex actions (this is combined from all the action phases) compared to a character who only gets one action phase, doesnt that make him exceedingly powerful?

please explain to me exactly how init passes work?

if i understood that correctly, you're pretty much spot on . . but hell, that's what ware is supposed to do, ain't it? O.o
and just because you get 6 actions, does not mean the one action guy does not get his shot out, that is the way the rules are, you're going first, he's going second, if you two are alone, period . . THEN you go again untill you're spend and then you go first again and he gets his go again . . at leat i think it is this way, correct my if i should be wrong

Errrrrr?

Password changed.

Color me embarrassed.

-Siege

I think i understand.... but i'm not sure....

The going first deal isnt the problem i see. I know the Int passes are powerful (my character has them. i love em) but we were thinking maybe we weren't doing it correctley. in the 4th ed. it states int passes as so.

Initiative Pases
Some characters may have magic or implants that allow
them to act more than once in a Combat Turn. When this
occurs, the Combat Turn is divided into Initiative Passes.
Everyone gets to act during the first Initiative Pass (in order according
to their Initiative Score), characters with two actions
get to go again during a second Initiative Pass, characters with
three actions get a third action during a third Initiative Pass,
and so on. No character can act in more than 4 Initiative Passes
in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge).
If a character does not get an action that allows him to act
during an Initiative Pass, he can do nothing; he must bide his
time until the next turn. The character also gets no Free Actions
during those extra Initiative Passes; he may, however, still dodge
and defend against attacks.
The same Initiative Score is kept for the entire Combat
Turn—do not re-roll it for each Initiative Pass. The only way
to affect an Initiative Score during the Combat Turn is with
wound modifiers.
The number of Initiative Passes in which a character
gets to act during a Combat Turn should be noted on his
character sheet.


So we've been doing it as such.

Ip=int pass

Boomfist=Cyborg gunslinger w/+1 IP

Corishima=Adept No IP

Balor=Cyber Sniper W/+1 IP

NPC= reg, no IP

Initaitive rolls go with this turn order

Corishima
Balor
Boomfist
NPC

then after that is resolved the IP go

Balor
Boomfist

and no one else acts

now combat turn is resolved and a new one is started.

Now, what i'm asking is this. If a street mage were to gain IP's in a turn he loses them after in the next combat turn. So with Boomfist with Wired Reflexes and Balor with Synaptic Booster (both items give +1Ip at rating 1) would they still have the IP on thier next combat turn or would it be expended until after combat/resting point? It doesnt state anywhere in the rulebook if the Ip with Wired reflexes or Synaptic booster is used once in a combat session or is the +1IP for every combat turn?

Just as a heads up, you might want to try your hand at making a new thread next time (instead of starting up a fresh conversation in a thread that's four years old).

On to your question: the only time someone would "lose" their extra initiative passes (that I can think of off the top of my head) would be if they were using combat drugs and the dose wore off, or if they were sustaining an initiative boosting spell and then decided not to use it the next round. Other than that, you are correct in your thinking that you do always get the extra initiative passes granted to you by the various and sundry magical and technological enhancements available.

Yes, it's very very good to get to act two or three times as much as the other guy.

Yes, it's supposed to work that way. "Chipped reflexes" and the like has been a part of the cyberpunk genre since the genre was born.

Yes, that's why it's a very good idea for every character to get ahold of some means of boosting their abilities in this fashion.

isn't it kinda impossible to have less than one ini pass? O.o
so let's say the gunslinger has 3 inipasses, the adept has 2 inipasses and the mage has 1 ini-pass . .
they roll, and as expected the mage gets to act last . .
so the gunslinger has a go, then the adept has a go, then the mage has a go . .
and if there's still combat going on the gunslinger gets to go again and the adept gets to go again, and then the gunslinger gets to go again and that's it, new rolls for who gets to go first please . .
at least that's as i understood the ini-passes . . kinda like in SR3, wehre you lost 10 of your ini-count per round . .
let's say gunslinger has 3d6+13 ini, he rolls 3 sixes and comes up 18+13=31
the adept has 2d6+9 ini, he rolls 2 sixes and gets 12+9=21
the mage as 1d6+5 ini, rolls 1 six and gets 6+5=11
so the gunslinger goes first ith his mighty 31,
then comes the adept with his still good 21,
then comes the mage with his paltry 11.
the gunslinger would go a whole 4 times, the adept would go 3 times and the mage would go 2 times
gunslinger goes, loses 10, lands on 21
adept goes, loses 10, lands on 11,
mage goes, loses 10, lands on 1,
gunslinger goes again, loses 10, lands on 11
adept goes again loses, loses 10, lands on 1
mage goes, loses 10, lands at less than 1 and does not get to go again,
gunslinger goes again, loses 10, lands on 1,
adept goes again, loses 10, does not get to go again,
gunslinger gets to go again,
then it's time to roll anew and see where everybody lands on the order

in short:
SR3 ini of 1 =1 SR4 IniPass,
SR3 ini of 11=2 SR4 iniPasses,
SR3 ini of 21=3 SR4 iniPasses,
SR3 ini of 31=4 SR4 iniPasses

thank you for the help! and yeah.... i will do that new form thing. its good to know we weren't being idiots about it.

I think i'm going to get into this form thing. i'm diggin it.

So your saying the IP's go by the ini score of the first roll? so does that mean if have cyberware giving me +Ip and i roll over a 30 i get 4 turns cus one is added? now i'm confused. i guess i'm not familiar with SR3.

in SR3, you had cyber/bio/magic that added to initiative DICE and to REACTION SPECIAL ATTRIBUTE . . not to be confused with the SR4 Reaction attribute . .
the result from the die-roll added to the reaction attribute resulted in your final initiative for the moment . .
if your total initiative roll is at least 1, you get to act . . so somebody with only 1 reaction can still act, somebody with only 1D6 initiative can still act . . if you lower either one of those to 0 or below you don't get to act
so if you have a character with quickness 6 and intelligence 6 you have a reaction of 6 if i remember that correctly . . i am at work, else i'd be sure about that . . so those 6 added to every number of eyes you rolled with your dice(heh, that rhymes[that too])
let's say you have a usual human, with level 1 boosted reflexes in SR3, he has a quickness of 6 and an intelligence score of 6, so his reaction is 6.
all characters start with 1D6 initiative plus their reaction, so the natural initiative of this human would be 1d6+6 . . so when combat comes around he can roll 1D6 and add 6 to it, that gives him a MINIMUM initiative score of 7, as 1 is the lowest you can roll with 1D6 plus the 6 of reaction . . and it gives him a MAXIMUM of 12, as you can only roll 6 maximum with 1D6 and add in the 6 again . . ok, there was an edge that gave exploding 6es to ini-dice, but that was incompatible without any ini-enhacning ware) . . now you add in the boosted reflexes 1, so he gets initiative of 1(2)D6+6, his natural initiative gets one more die added, so he gets to roll 2 die every time ini is called for.
his minimum initiative score rises from 7 to 8 as you can not roll lower than 2 ones on 2D6 and add in the reaction again . . his MAXIMUM initiative rises from 12 to 18 . . he will NEVER get to the 21 initiative and thus gain his 3rd ini-pass . . he will be stuck having either 1 or 2 passes . . now if he were to get 3 levels of reaction enhancement cyberware, he can boost his REACTION from 6 to 6(9) and his MAXIMUM initiative score from 18 to 21 . . so he CAN get to the 3rd initiative pass, if he rolls 2 sixes . .
that is one of the points that are easier about SR4 combat especially, as somebody with 3 ini passes will have 3 ini-passes, unless he decides to brun some edge i think . .
sorry for the late answer, i had read the previous post and did not notice you having posted again in close succession so i thought the post from 12:14 was the post i had read allready <.<

HAHAHAHAHA, I didn't even look at the Date stamp on the posts and I've been going back checking up to see what exactly was the issue with Boosted. Made me a bit nostalgic. Anyways, yea, next time please start a new thread, don't be afraid to put the issue out there. Leave the searching up to the old guys.

Stahl, telling him all about how initiative worked in SR3 isn't going to help clear up any of his questions about how initiative works in SR4 (since they're, y'know, totally different). There's no "subtraction" in SR4, how many passes you get isn't based in any way on your initiative roll, etc, etc. Pay no attention to how it worked in SR1, SR2, or SR3, because SR4 is a whole new beast. Rambling on for paragraphs and paragraphs about how it used to work is only going to add to the confusion of someone who wants to know how it works now.

In SR4, your initiative score, your initiative roll, and your initiative passes are all seperate animals.