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Sengir
Well, the title already says it - what are the costs for cyber (or actually, any kind of augmentation) when you just buy the implant itself and not have it implanted? Is there something official I didn't find, or does anyone have a good houserule?
Daylen
I think its the list price. implantation is extra.
Rotbart van Dainig
No,, the list price includes implantation in SR4.
Daylen
next someones going to tell me bullets come packaged in magazines.
DireRadiant
List price includes implantation when you are creating a character.

During play you can use the Augmentation rules for medical stuff on p. 126 for implant surgery. That is, you pay list for the cyber, and then use the surgery rules for how long it takes and how much it would cost.

Remember that character generation Nuyen represents a level of resources spent in your history, not actual money.
Rotbart van Dainig
There are no seperate implantation costs in Augmentation, either.

If fact, most bioware implants are actually treatments.
Sengir
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 20 2010, 05:14 PM) *
No,, the list price includes implantation in SR4.

Does that mean there used to be seperate costs? If yes, how much % would I get off, say, a cyberarm in SR3?

(I want to put an arm at a character's wall for decoration...with an equally decorative pistol nearby)
Summerstorm
As i remember in SR3 it was optional to ADD price for the procedures. It was the last section in.... Arsenal? I think so. It was cool having surgery have effects: More or less essenceloss, better resistance, horrible malfunctions. Also prices and times for procedures and healing.
Rotbart van Dainig
Hollow Cyberlimbs are detailed in RC, p. 35. Though they are supposed to be attached to a corpse, they can cut down on the finer medical details.
Sengir
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 20 2010, 06:35 PM) *
Hollow Cyberlimbs are detailed in RC, p. 35. Though they are supposed to be attached to a corpse, they can cut down on the finer medical details.

...and are nonfunctional, not what I was looking for wink.gif
Method
The essence cost of an implant can be used as a rough measure of how invasive the operation is. You can use this as the basis for a discount- maybe something like: [essence cost x 20% = Discount]

Using this formula, a set of rating 1 Cybereyes would be 480 (0.2 x 20 = 4% --> 500 x .096 = 480). In this case the cyber clinic makes more off the hardware than the installation.

A basic cyber arm on the other hand (no pun intended) would be 12,000 (1 x 20% = 20% --> 15000 x 0.80 = 12,000). In this case the surgeon's fee, operating room time, etc would be 3,000.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 20 2010, 11:42 AM) *
There are no seperate implantation costs in Augmentation, either.

If fact, most bioware implants are actually treatments.



It's not direct. But in the Implant table you do get 4 to 20 hours and a certain level of DV. Then you can look at the table on p 122 Augmentation for medical costs and availability.
Rotbart van Dainig
That would be for healing of course, with implantation damage, this indeed will be usually added to the implant cost.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
And, at least at our table, the patient is not allowed to leave until the wounds from Surgery (or wounds tended to after being brought in) have been reduced to a minimum... so, the cost for Healing is included per each day of the stay... and if you have taken over 7 boxes of damage, you may be in Critical Care until you have been healed below that 7th box... which incurs more expenses for the critical care provided...

Seems to make a fair bit of sense, and even still, the costs of a hospital stay with treatment is generally of minimal cost... Healing is after all fairly quick in SHadowrun.

Keep the Faith
Stahlseele
Used Cyber costs how much to buy?
And what's the ratio between buy/sell prices?
That's what Street Index was there for in SR3.
Also, there were usually no prices for JUST THE CYBER because it is generally simply assumed that you need to have it implanted ANYWAY.
Method
Sometimes I miss Street Index...

Tho I'm not sure how that relates to buying legal cyberware (an arm) and not wanting it implanted?
Stahlseele
WHY would you not want that arm implanted?
Or are you looking for spareparts for modular arms and legs?
If so: Yeah, there's something sorely missing there i guess . .
Method
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 20 2010, 09:28 AM) *
(I want to put an arm at a character's wall for decoration...with an equally decorative pistol nearby)
Ask Sengir.
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
Go beat someone up and take his arm.
EARN your Trophies ^^
Daylen
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2010, 01:26 AM) *
*shrugs*
Go beat someone up and take his arm.
EARN your Trophies ^^


reminds me of a char idea I had once but never played. An English safari hunter that goes on safari looking for paranormal animals and other awakened goodies such as trolls. for a firearm a large double rifle built on the autocannon base or sniper rifle base.
Stahlseele
I remember the idea for an NPC from somewhere.
Called THE LIZARD.
A Character grabbed his arm and was VERY confused when the LIZARD simply kept running away.
While the character had his cyber-arm in his hands. Which exploded due to being filled with explosives.
Da9iel
QUOTE (Me Posted on: Jan 8 2010 @ 02:46 AM)
For selling off used ware, we estimate surgery costs based on essence and grade. We assume data jacks (I think they have the lowest price/essence) are basically free and all costs are surgical. I. e. surgery costs 5000 per point of essence for standard grade. Beta grade sugery costs--how do I put this--20,000 per point of essence 0.7 if including essence reduction. We then subtract out the surgical costs to give the equipment base costs. Yes that means the datajack hardware is worth nothing. Legal (and legally obtained) used cyber pawning starts at 25% equipment base costs before negotiation. Hey, they sell it for 50%; why should they pay more? Fencing looted cyberware gets even less, 10%. Harsh?

I haven't reconciled this with the fact that used stuff costs 50% installed. Perhaps the increased essence could be accounted for by sloppier surgery. If data jacks are free before installation, what's the savings for a "used" one? Sloppy surgery. Yeah. I like it.
From here.
Sengir
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 21 2010, 01:22 AM) *
Ask Sengir.

OK, the full plan is using a cyberarm and some pistols as a wall decoration for the hallway. A functional arm, which might just become active and grab one of the guns if someone kicks down the door. biggrin.gif
(the mechanical arm for vehicles would do the job, but given the different price it probably looks too different. I want something which can conceivably pass as "my old arm")


Other uses would be the aforementioned modular limbs, and using the surgery rules from Augmentation to buy the 'ware and then have the team doc implant it.



5000 nuyen.gif per point of essence sounds like a good metric, but I'd rather like a percentage-based approach. Extrapolating from a full limb which costs 15000 nuyen.gif and one essence, do you think 1/3 as surgery costs are a good measure?
Stahlseele
Well, the Procedure ain't all that Important Anyway.
It's the Immuno-Suppressants and the Room you occupy while recuperating from the Surgery.
And of course being taken care of while in the clinic. Make it 25% i'd say.
Method
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 21 2010, 12:15 PM) *
I'd rather like a percentage-based approach.
Did you see my formula above?

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 21 2010, 02:17 PM) *
Well, the Procedure ain't all that Important Anyway.
It's the Immuno-Suppressants and the Room you occupy while recuperating from the Surgery.
And of course being taken care of while in the clinic. Make it 25% i'd say.
This is why you need the advanced rules in Augmentation after character gen. There is no way the base cost of cyber would reasonably cover all the extra costs. Otherwise cyber got a helluva lot cheeper between SR3 and SR4...
Da9iel
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 21 2010, 03:15 PM) *
...
5000 nuyen.gif per point of essence sounds like a good metric, but I'd rather like a percentage-based approach. Extrapolating from a full limb which costs 15000 nuyen.gif and one essence, do you think 1/3 as surgery costs are a good measure?

I thought about a strict percentage. It is easier. But I reasoned that some simple things like the afore mentioned data jack could be a bear to install compared to it's cheap price and some complex things like cyber legs could be comparatively easier. I went with the essence based surgery costs because essence is the easiest measure of how invasive a particular implant is.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 21 2010, 04:16 PM) *
Did you see my formula above?

This is why you need the advanced rules in Augmentation after character gen. There is no way the base cost of cyber would reasonably cover all the extra costs. Otherwise cyber got a helluva lot cheeper between SR3 and SR4...


It DID get a hell of a lot cheaper from 3rd to 4th... and the surgical costs at character generation do not apply... only after you begin the game do they actually have an impact; Assuming that the table in question even bothers to use those rules... which ours does...

Keep the Faith
Method
I think thats what I just said... nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 21 2010, 10:08 PM) *
I think thats what I just said... nyahnyah.gif



Sorry... I must have been confused...

Keep the Faith
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