Does it make sense that with some form of phenotypic alteration varient it would be possible to obtain results similar to those of bioware, but slightly cheaper bio-index wise?
Just a thought...
Full Version: Geneware
I dont see why not, except it would cost a lot more, take a lot more time, and might give you leukemia.
Jason, I am going have say that your Leukemia site is rather pointless. gene-therapy can work.You point to a singel case,and damn a whole feild. Take,gene-herapy,that changes everyday life.You know ,that tuna DNA in fruits,and vegtable to reduce the likely hood of crop lose to cold weather.
The fact that they did a sloppy job, or did not have the proper resources/research to prevent this problem,doesn't mean it is a a wasted feild.On,and the DNA of humans are not more complicated than Tuna..They are IIRC more simple.
The fact that they did a sloppy job, or did not have the proper resources/research to prevent this problem,doesn't mean it is a a wasted feild.On,and the DNA of humans are not more complicated than Tuna..They are IIRC more simple.
Considering the fact that Gene therapy is probably performed using gene-altering retroviri, I'd expect you to be able to get a whole lot more than leukemia from bad genetic therapy. Incedentally: What's about the only gene-altering retrovirus they could have learnt how to do this from? HMHVV and the various strains of-course!
Playing Games:
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for genetic research. I read the original paper about that particular procedure... something I doubt you can say for yourself. The article I linked was just the first article I found referencing that case in a google search. The researchers were certainly careful, and most of the people in the treatment group survived without any problems far longer than they otherwise would have been expected to. I think its funny that you presume to know what I think about gene therapy as a field from a single article I mentioned.
However, first of all you dont seem to know the difference between gene therapy and the sort of genetic engineering involved in producing, as you mention, fruits with tuna DNA. Generation of recombinant vegetables is the result of careful laboratory insertion of a gene into an existing strand, and the success of the insertion can be determined before you try to grow the vegetable. Gene therapy, as it applies to humans, involves using a retroviral vector to introduce a functional gene into a human who has suffered from a loss-of-function mutation. Unfortunately, since you are inserting a gene into an adult human rather than growing a brand new human with the gene inserted, you dont have the luxury of determining whether the gene inserted itself correctly until after you have completed the procedure... and if the insertion fails youre pretty much stuck with whatever problems it causes.
In this particular case, the functional gene inserted itself in reverse in the middle of an already functional gene, thereby disrupting that gene's function and causing a leukemia-like disease in the subject. This sort of thing is simply unpredictable (minor variances in individual genomes make it impossible to determine the probability of it occuring in a given person), and there havent been any sufficiently long-term tests to determine how useful somatic gene therapy actually is. I think gene therapy is fine for use in cases that would otherwise be terminal, but theres no reason to risk introducing genetic diseases into yourself for a non-vital treatment. The very existance of somatic-level gene therapy is simply the result of our societal reluctance to modify germinal DNA, which would be much more predictable and effective. I imagine that in the 2060's most genetic disorders would be corrected prior to birth.
However, if youre willing/able to perform genetic modifications on zygotes, you can bypass the problems of unpredictable insertions by only inserting correctly-spliced DNA into the zygotes and then allowing those zygotes to grow. Thus, for corporations with bioengineering capabilities, geneware would be a viable option. It wouldn't even cost them that much.
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for genetic research. I read the original paper about that particular procedure... something I doubt you can say for yourself. The article I linked was just the first article I found referencing that case in a google search. The researchers were certainly careful, and most of the people in the treatment group survived without any problems far longer than they otherwise would have been expected to. I think its funny that you presume to know what I think about gene therapy as a field from a single article I mentioned.
However, first of all you dont seem to know the difference between gene therapy and the sort of genetic engineering involved in producing, as you mention, fruits with tuna DNA. Generation of recombinant vegetables is the result of careful laboratory insertion of a gene into an existing strand, and the success of the insertion can be determined before you try to grow the vegetable. Gene therapy, as it applies to humans, involves using a retroviral vector to introduce a functional gene into a human who has suffered from a loss-of-function mutation. Unfortunately, since you are inserting a gene into an adult human rather than growing a brand new human with the gene inserted, you dont have the luxury of determining whether the gene inserted itself correctly until after you have completed the procedure... and if the insertion fails youre pretty much stuck with whatever problems it causes.
In this particular case, the functional gene inserted itself in reverse in the middle of an already functional gene, thereby disrupting that gene's function and causing a leukemia-like disease in the subject. This sort of thing is simply unpredictable (minor variances in individual genomes make it impossible to determine the probability of it occuring in a given person), and there havent been any sufficiently long-term tests to determine how useful somatic gene therapy actually is. I think gene therapy is fine for use in cases that would otherwise be terminal, but theres no reason to risk introducing genetic diseases into yourself for a non-vital treatment. The very existance of somatic-level gene therapy is simply the result of our societal reluctance to modify germinal DNA, which would be much more predictable and effective. I imagine that in the 2060's most genetic disorders would be corrected prior to birth.
However, if youre willing/able to perform genetic modifications on zygotes, you can bypass the problems of unpredictable insertions by only inserting correctly-spliced DNA into the zygotes and then allowing those zygotes to grow. Thus, for corporations with bioengineering capabilities, geneware would be a viable option. It wouldn't even cost them that much.
All of which prompts the "Dark Angel" possibilities of gene-engineered property of some mega corps.
Also "Soldier" as a fascinating possibility.
-Siege
Also "Soldier" as a fascinating possibility.
-Siege
neither of them are cost effective in shadowrun.To grow humans properly takes years,and in the time it takes your super soliders TM done,they will be out dated.That is unless they are like normal people with extra bits. IE they could still get cyber/bioware. Other wise,you spent, money,resources,and time on at best 16 year old tech.
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| ,and in the time it takes your super soliders TM done,they will be out dated. |
Technically true, but the improved version will not be on the market yet (unless one of the improvements was an increased growth rate with no troublesome side effects).
Enhancing development speed, and even setting a time at which the enhanced development speed should stop, wouldnt be all that hard relative to the other sorts of things that can be genetically accomplished with SR tech. You would simply need to insert a gene that monitors the length of your telomeres and initiates a pathway that deactivates the "increased development speed" genes while activating the "normal development" genes once they reach a certain length.
They are growing body parts, both cloned and bioware varities, on demand. Logically, they must have "increased" growth rate abilities. Furthermore, they must be able to shut it off or people would be dying and falling apart all the time if their parts aged faster than the rest of them.
Well, they have to grow the whole body, IIRC. IIRC, the bio section of SR3 says as much. And Awakened can't use the forced growth routines.
Do you forsee a change in the basic application of humans in 16 years?
Even if the changes are relatively minor -- enhancements to Body, Quickness and Strength for example, you produce a crop of fundamentally "er" recruits.
I grant you, very few governments or megacorps would be bothered with the expense associated with raising an army of supermen, but select programs that emphasized certain abilities would be attractive.
Tweaking the children of your employees to enhance select features might even be a more attractive option, giving recruiters an eye of who to watch for future selections without committing massive resources beyond the usually expected allocations to children.
-Siege
Even if the changes are relatively minor -- enhancements to Body, Quickness and Strength for example, you produce a crop of fundamentally "er" recruits.
I grant you, very few governments or megacorps would be bothered with the expense associated with raising an army of supermen, but select programs that emphasized certain abilities would be attractive.
Tweaking the children of your employees to enhance select features might even be a more attractive option, giving recruiters an eye of who to watch for future selections without committing massive resources beyond the usually expected allocations to children.
-Siege
Anyone here read the shadowrun novel "Tails you lose" by Lisa Smedman? The next bit is in a spoiler tag for anyone who dosen't want to know the gory details:
[ Spoiler ]
There are approaches to retroviral gene therapy that could work well to prevent what happened there - insertional mutagenesis, I think it's called? One of my buddies is actually doing his graduate thesis on attempting to use retrotransposons for gene therapy. I don't remember the details but I believe some retrotransposons have an ability to target inactive regions of DNA.
Risks can be mitigated by making damn sure the virus you're using doesn't insert in multiple locations. That doesn't eliminate it - if the insertion happens to occur within a gene you're heterozygous for, you're screwed - but it helps to keep the odds low. Also there are a variety of other options, electroporative plasmid transduction is extremely low-efficiancy and can't really be applied to an organism as a whole, but for gene-altered vatgrown organs or whatever could work quite well.
And then of course there's also fully synthetic DNA. Build it from scratch and do a nuclear transfer or whatever to get it into a zygote, as long as you're building custom babies.
And, of course, in a world with fully functional nanites, I'd imagine they'd find a use in gene therapy. Take a probe that binds (reversibly) to a specific DNA sequence, and generate a nanite that looks for the probe and inserts its payload there. Find a site that's a non-coding region. Go.
Yes, modern gene therapy has some issues, but we're working through them. Give us 60 years.
(note - Req works in a human gene/cell therapy facility. He loves this stuff.)
Risks can be mitigated by making damn sure the virus you're using doesn't insert in multiple locations. That doesn't eliminate it - if the insertion happens to occur within a gene you're heterozygous for, you're screwed - but it helps to keep the odds low. Also there are a variety of other options, electroporative plasmid transduction is extremely low-efficiancy and can't really be applied to an organism as a whole, but for gene-altered vatgrown organs or whatever could work quite well.
And then of course there's also fully synthetic DNA. Build it from scratch and do a nuclear transfer or whatever to get it into a zygote, as long as you're building custom babies.
And, of course, in a world with fully functional nanites, I'd imagine they'd find a use in gene therapy. Take a probe that binds (reversibly) to a specific DNA sequence, and generate a nanite that looks for the probe and inserts its payload there. Find a site that's a non-coding region. Go.
Yes, modern gene therapy has some issues, but we're working through them. Give us 60 years.
(note - Req works in a human gene/cell therapy facility. He loves this stuff.)
I was thinking about nanotech applications myself, but SR "nanites" are actually cell-sized, and so they wouldn't be very useful in monitoring intracellular processes.
IIRC, transposons will copy themselves over and over throughout the inactive DNA regions, but do somehow manage to avoid inserting themselves into functional genes. However, I think transposons can actually activate sections of nonfunctional genes that reside in that "junk DNA." This has lead to speculation that a great deal of evolution has been virally induced (as transposable elements are believed to be viral in origin), but also means that a retrotransposon vector *could* be just as dangerous as a retroviral vector.
As for making sure your DNA doesnt insert in multiple locations... I've done some gene insertion/sequencing myself (my favorite class in college... eukaryotic molecular genetics), and even in nice, pristine lab conditions weird things happen sometimes -- weird things like reverse insertions and insertions in the wrong places. You can find those things and just not use them when youre dealing with vegetables or bacteria... but not when youre dealing with somatic gene therapy.
I *still* say that we should just take care of all of those genetic problems prior to birth... but people these days are a bit too squeamish about the eugenic implications.
Anyway.
Yeah. enhanced growth genetically superior superkids in adult bodies. Sounds awesome. I'm sure it would be done, because, as I mentioned, it would be a lot cheaper to grow a single person with those modifications that it is to grow the modifications separately and then implant them.
As for the whole "having to grow a whole new person in order to get a single replacement limb" thing... I tend to ignore that. The understanding of control genes in the 2060s would certainly be sufficient to be able to just grow specific parts, insofar as we're on our way to that sort of understanding even now.
IIRC, transposons will copy themselves over and over throughout the inactive DNA regions, but do somehow manage to avoid inserting themselves into functional genes. However, I think transposons can actually activate sections of nonfunctional genes that reside in that "junk DNA." This has lead to speculation that a great deal of evolution has been virally induced (as transposable elements are believed to be viral in origin), but also means that a retrotransposon vector *could* be just as dangerous as a retroviral vector.
As for making sure your DNA doesnt insert in multiple locations... I've done some gene insertion/sequencing myself (my favorite class in college... eukaryotic molecular genetics), and even in nice, pristine lab conditions weird things happen sometimes -- weird things like reverse insertions and insertions in the wrong places. You can find those things and just not use them when youre dealing with vegetables or bacteria... but not when youre dealing with somatic gene therapy.
I *still* say that we should just take care of all of those genetic problems prior to birth... but people these days are a bit too squeamish about the eugenic implications.
Anyway.
Yeah. enhanced growth genetically superior superkids in adult bodies. Sounds awesome. I'm sure it would be done, because, as I mentioned, it would be a lot cheaper to grow a single person with those modifications that it is to grow the modifications separately and then implant them.
As for the whole "having to grow a whole new person in order to get a single replacement limb" thing... I tend to ignore that. The understanding of control genes in the 2060s would certainly be sufficient to be able to just grow specific parts, insofar as we're on our way to that sort of understanding even now.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| I was thinking about nanotech applications myself, but SR "nanites" are actually cell-sized, and so they wouldn't be very useful in monitoring intracellular processes. |
Ooh, right. Now that you mention it, I do recall reading that. Still, there's got to be some way to target a gene insertion to a specific site...given the whole voodoo science aspect of Shadowrun in general...
I hear what you're sayin', though. My lab's been avoiding the whole gene therapy thing and focusing on ex vivo T cell modification, which is a much easier question.
The only problem I see with growing super soldiers is one of selection. How are you sure that your training program will produce what you want? With 'normal' troops the 'best' ones are what you want already and then you borg/train those guys. With vat grown super soldiers, it can be a bit harder to be sure.
However, if we use a Blade Runner like memory implantation scheme, then we take a group group of our current soldiers, DL their memories, alter them a bit (so no: wow, you broke both you arms playing in the toilet when you were 5 *too*?), speed grow your super soldiers, and give them your altered memories.
Is your Bond 6.00 getting a little long in the obsolete? then let him retire. Just copy his memories and grow a new Uberbod for him, violla: Bond 7.00. And this one has the karma/ass kicking experience of all the previous versions. Just insittue some good version control in case the 7.00 version tend to go bad, you can always go back to the 6.9, or 6.5, or 6.33...
However, if we use a Blade Runner like memory implantation scheme, then we take a group group of our current soldiers, DL their memories, alter them a bit (so no: wow, you broke both you arms playing in the toilet when you were 5 *too*?), speed grow your super soldiers, and give them your altered memories.
Is your Bond 6.00 getting a little long in the obsolete? then let him retire. Just copy his memories and grow a new Uberbod for him, violla: Bond 7.00. And this one has the karma/ass kicking experience of all the previous versions. Just insittue some good version control in case the 7.00 version tend to go bad, you can always go back to the 6.9, or 6.5, or 6.33...
Have you ever seen the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell? You stir the genepool with an eye to enhance selected traits -- the children that best represent those traits are selected while the others are weeded out or diverted to support roles.
A lot of people grow up with vague, indistinct memories of their childhood. One or two special memories and the rest can be a generic blur -- especially if they're a driven, fanatically programmed drone. Rachel from "Blade Runner", as you noted. And given the level of sim technology, it wouldn't be a difficult thing to imagine.
-Siege
A lot of people grow up with vague, indistinct memories of their childhood. One or two special memories and the rest can be a generic blur -- especially if they're a driven, fanatically programmed drone. Rachel from "Blade Runner", as you noted. And given the level of sim technology, it wouldn't be a difficult thing to imagine.
-Siege
My point about the vat grown super solider was mostly about economics. If it takes X to grow a super soldier bod but you training program can only 'make' 50% (or whatever) of the babes in arms into soliders, then the 2X you spent on each super solider better be worth the effort (as compared to taking a regular solider and enchancing them).
I was also thinking if Dark City when I was talking about the memory creation. Especially the scene where the doctor has a rat running around in a maze of cards...
I was also thinking if Dark City when I was talking about the memory creation. Especially the scene where the doctor has a rat running around in a maze of cards...
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Feb 13 2004, 06:30 PM) |
| I was thinking about nanotech applications myself, but SR "nanites" are actually cell-sized, and so they wouldn't be very useful in monitoring intracellular processes. |
That may be true, but some of them must be capable - when talking about gene therapy in SOTA 2063 it specifically mentions 'using highly specialised nanites, engineered phages and other DNA vectors'. (p18, Gene Therapy, section 2)
So that's how they do it.
I was also thinking about the human cloning viability thing that was being discussed elsewhere a while back (but that I can't find, if someone wants to post the link for me). I know in SR2 it certainly was canon that human clones weren't possible. Does it say in M&M somewhere in the Game Info section that it isn't possible? At the moment all I can find is plenty of in character information stating the commonly held beleif its not possible and the equally commonly held sinister paranoia. But the game info section studiously ignores the whole subject and only provides info on game rules for the treatments.
I'm starting to think that the Fanpro guys specifically want the question open. Can someone provide me with a quote which says they aren't? I appreciate that its often been said (by me as well) that canon says 'NO', but now I come to look for it, I just can't find it. Anyone?
Best genetic manipulation for sinister plotlines has to be ancient selective breeding society a la Dark Angel. Damn shame thats not on anymore... It's creepy, it's potentially sinister, and if you throw in some scientific jiggerypokery in recent years, then you can get some cool results... straight sixes for a mundane human anyone?
I think it's left open for a good reason - we're not far off cloning humans today, in fact the early stages of an embryo have been cloned, so it would be a bit daft if they wrote: "Cloning metahumans is not possible", then it turned out IRL that it was
However, I think the concensus is that cloning in SR is possible, but has the unfortunate side effect of insanity. IIRC I remember someone posting a long long time ago about a clone in London who copied Jack the Ripper (aparently it was a clone of said psycho). Anywho, I believe that was canon, and has already been mentioned - the genetically engineered super-soldiers turned out to be nut jobs too. In short, yes you can clone and genetically manufacture people, but they're invariably going to be insane, so most "reputable" people don't bother. That's not to say you couldn't have some individual or corp deliberately unleashing psychos on the general populous.
However, I think the concensus is that cloning in SR is possible, but has the unfortunate side effect of insanity. IIRC I remember someone posting a long long time ago about a clone in London who copied Jack the Ripper (aparently it was a clone of said psycho). Anywho, I believe that was canon, and has already been mentioned - the genetically engineered super-soldiers turned out to be nut jobs too. In short, yes you can clone and genetically manufacture people, but they're invariably going to be insane, so most "reputable" people don't bother. That's not to say you couldn't have some individual or corp deliberately unleashing psychos on the general populous.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| [ Spoiler ] |
Impossible. You can't hang yourself with monofilament any more than you can club yourself to death with the sharp edge of a well-sharpened sword. That'd be a decapitation, not a hanging. Don't even get me started on the people who claim you can have monofilament garrotes.
~J
| QUOTE |
| Don't even get me started on the people who claim you can have monofilament garrotes. |
You can, they're just very messy.
Uless you want to get techincal about it, as there wouldn't really be a whole lot of strangulation involved.
I am getting technical about it
Potentially if your target had a monofilament neck-guard or other flexible neck covering that the monofilament couldn't cut you might be able to put enough pressure on the neck to strangle them. Otherwise, you can't do it because it just slices right through, and thus by definition it is not a garrote.
~J
Potentially if your target had a monofilament neck-guard or other flexible neck covering that the monofilament couldn't cut you might be able to put enough pressure on the neck to strangle them. Otherwise, you can't do it because it just slices right through, and thus by definition it is not a garrote.
~J
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel) |
| I think it's left open for a good reason - we're not far off cloning humans today, in fact the early stages of an embryo have been cloned, so it would be a bit daft if they wrote: "Cloning metahumans is not possible", then it turned out IRL that it was However, I think the concensus is that cloning in SR is possible, but has the unfortunate side effect of insanity. IIRC I remember someone posting a long long time ago about a clone in London who copied Jack the Ripper (aparently it was a clone of said psycho). Anywho, I believe that was canon, and has already been mentioned - the genetically engineered super-soldiers turned out to be nut jobs too. In short, yes you can clone and genetically manufacture people, but they're invariably going to be insane, so most "reputable" people don't bother. That's not to say you couldn't have some individual or corp deliberately unleashing psychos on the general populous. |
Feh -- don't confuse game mechanics with reality.
Although it does spawn the most entertaining threads on this board.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I am getting technical about it Potentially if your target had a monofilament neck-guard or other flexible neck covering that the monofilament couldn't cut you might be able to put enough pressure on the neck to strangle them. Otherwise, you can't do it because it just slices right through, and thus by definition it is not a garrote. ~J |
It's a highly enthusiastic, very effecient garrote?
Seriously though, Kage is right -- a garrote is designed to strangle, not decapitation on a rope (vorpal lasso, anyone?)
Although for simplicity's sake, we still call them garrotes because it's a quick and easy visual that often accurately describes the form of the weapon.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege @ Feb 24 2004, 11:22 PM) | ||
Feh -- don't confuse game mechanics with reality. Although it does spawn the most entertaining threads on this board. -Siege |
Who said cloned humans are going to be insane IRL? There's no evidence of mental problems in the cloned critters created today, so no real reason why a cloned human should be loopy - but in SR canon clones and GE people are invariably loopy. No real confusion between RL and game mechanics, since such things exist in canon, and may one day exist IRL given we're a long way towards doing it. My point was that yes clones and GE people exist in SR canon, but unlike IRL (as far as we can tell) they're invariably insane - that is the difference between game mechanic and real life that is not to be confused. It would be a pretty big difference, and very hard to explain if someone cloned someone tomorrow, and according to SR canon it simply wasn't possible - at least with magic you can make the point that although it may have worked pre-awakening, it just stopped working as quite it should with magic around - like nukes
I thought they had found, cloned critters, likely "dolly" the sheep, started to display physical break down. They said she has started to rapidlly age and started to basically fall apart. Sort of like the Replicants in Blade Runner. I think she also went loopy, she could barely stand or eat. She looked like a cow with mad cow disease. So those GeneTechs have 59 years to iron out the kinks.
| QUOTE |
| I think it's left open for a good reason - we're not far off cloning humans today, in fact the early stages of an embryo have been cloned, so it would be a bit daft if they wrote: "Cloning metahumans is not possible", then it turned out IRL that it was |
My response was directed towards this bit -- the SR system has a lot of things listed as "not possible" that are, indeed, possible.
Which is why you see such a plethora of house rules on almost every conceivable subject.
On the subject of insanity and mental instability in clones: While some clones show some instability on a physical level (Dolly, for example), until we make an effort to study the mental well being of sheep or rats, odds are we won't know about insanity in clones until we start experimenting.
I have no doubt that cloning humans and genetic tampering will appear at some point in the technological chain with a whole host of moral and ethical questions to answer as well.
-Siege
Well there you go then even less difference between game mechanics and SR than I thought
I knew she got arthritis and a host of other 'old age' illnesses despite not actually being old, but I had no idea about any kind of loss or problems with brain function. So I guess we can just take it that clones are mentally disfunctional and although they might have sorted out any physical problems (cellular repair anyone?) the brain remains something that can't be fixed [yet?].
So, my answer still stands - in SR, you can't clone, or by extention genetically manufacture (since a GM human would essentially be a composite 'clone' made up of DNA derived or 'cloned' from a host of sources) a human without it turning out insane
I knew she got arthritis and a host of other 'old age' illnesses despite not actually being old, but I had no idea about any kind of loss or problems with brain function. So I guess we can just take it that clones are mentally disfunctional and although they might have sorted out any physical problems (cellular repair anyone?) the brain remains something that can't be fixed [yet?].
So, my answer still stands - in SR, you can't clone, or by extention genetically manufacture (since a GM human would essentially be a composite 'clone' made up of DNA derived or 'cloned' from a host of sources) a human without it turning out insane
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Impossible. You can't hang yourself with monofilament ... That'd be a decapitation, not a hanging. Don't even get me started on the people who claim you can have monofilament garrotes. |
Keep in mind, there is a difference between "monofilament" and "monowire" or "monomolecular", especially depending on who you talk to. Monowire refers to the monomolecular strand that is usually described as a carbon bucky-tube. Monofilament usually refers to fishing line, a single pulled strand of polymer (like polyester). So hanging with monofilament is possible. You'll just bleed a lot along the way. One the same vein, a monofilament garrote will work (though again, a bit messily), a monowire "garrote" is merely a quick way to decapitation. A monofilament garrote is actually nice b/c once it's applied, it's difficult to remove, like wire. It's usually less sharp that a wire garrote (so less mess), and can be as close to as strong as wire as to make little difference.
True enough. I've been bitten by that phrasing before.
Odds are, however, that the monofilament in question was probably intended to be monowire.
~J
Odds are, however, that the monofilament in question was probably intended to be monowire.
~J
What I find interesting is that in gamepossible technologies, more than a few of the edges listed in the Shadowrun Companion, could probably be turned into genetic traits you could engineer into a shadowrun meta/human.
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