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AndyZ
"Itís equipped with a
detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded."

Which of these is true?

A.) Itís equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. The White Knight cannot be further upgraded.

B.) Itís equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. This recoil compensation cannot be further upgraded.

C.) Itís equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. Although the integral system cannot be further upgraded with gas-vent systems, modifications like an underbarrel weight or heavy barrel are still possible.

Backgammon
""Itís equipped with a
detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded."

"Itís equipped with a
detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation thatcannot be further upgraded."

I would say that the "and" ellipses "it", "it" referring to the entire weapon. The version with "that" links the compensation to what cannot be upgraded. My reading would thus be the entire weapon cannot be upgraded. That's how I read it.
Umidori
Oh for the love of Pete...

The Corebook Gear Listing quite clearly displays a table of the various weapons and their damages, armor penetrations, recoil compensations, availabilities, and costs. The listing for the RC of an Ingram White Knight is 5(6), the parentheses indicating that this is a modified total that does not always apply, id est, it is the one point bonus to RC that you get only when the folding stock is unfolded.

Furthermore, basic grammar will tell you what the description means. It says "X and Y that provides". It means "Y provides", because if it meant both X and Y, it would say "X and Y that provide". One object provides, two objects provide.

And given that we're grammatically talking about the gas vent system, the non-upgradable part also refers to that.

~Umidori
Brol_The_Mighty
I do believe he's asking about what can be modified, not what RC applies.
AndyZ
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 22 2010, 06:01 PM) *
Oh for the love of Pete...

The Corebook Gear Listing quite clearly displays a table of the various weapons and their damages, armor penetrations, recoil compensations, availabilities, and costs. The listing for the RC of an Ingram White Knight is 5(6), the parentheses indicating that this is a modified total that does not always apply, id est, it is the one point bonus to RC that you get only when the folding stock is unfolded.

~Umidori


I understood 5(6). Thank you.

Backgammon says A but doesn't seem sure.

Umidori seems to imply B. The double use of "and" seemed to suggest this to me also but I wanted to make sure.

Anyone else want to leave a mark?
Umidori
To clarify, because "and cannot be further upgraded" comes after "that provides 5 points of recoil compensation", it is grammatically part of the subordinate clause that begins with the word "that", and which modifies "integral gas vent system".

The only case in which it would refer back to the White Knight itself would be if there actually WAS a comma, or alternately a period or similar break. Since there is not, grammar dictates we are refering to the gas vent system only.

~Umidori
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 22 2010, 11:08 PM) *
To clarify, because "and cannot be further upgraded" comes after "that provides 5 points of recoil compensation", it is grammatically part of the subordinate clause that begins with the word "that", and which modifies "integral gas vent system".

The only case in which it would refer back to the White Knight itself would be if there actually WAS a comma, or alternately a period or similar break. Since there is not, grammar dictates we are refering to the gas vent system only.

~Umidori


Agreed. However I understand the confusion as there is no way to upgrade a Gas Vent system beyond 3 anyway (if it already has 2 or none), so I'm guessing the only reason why they added it was to make sure people understood you can't have a gas vent system in addition to what it comes with.

AFAIK, other kinds of recoil compensator apply with normal rules... which means that the weapon has the best potential RC in the game.
Dumori
not quite the Arese alpha should rival it and diss out more hurt. it was 2 RC inbuild and can take 3 form gass vent adn all the other stuff.
Falconer
Yeah really, the only thing the white knight has over the alpha is that it can be belt fed. (kinda critical for riggers... as otherwise ammo is way too short).

It needs a heavy weapons skill... (which is nowhere near as common nor usefull as a automatics skill). Takes double penalties for uncompensated recoil (really smaller weapons should take double recoil penalties, not heavy weapons!.. that's why they're heavy). Can't be silenced.


The text to me means, the white knight has a specialty 5point gas vent and can't take an additional gas vent accessory.
imperialus
It means it has five points of recoil compensation. You cannot twink it further than this.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 22 2010, 06:19 PM) *
The text to me means, the white knight has a specialty 5point gas vent and can't take an additional gas vent accessory.

That's the way I've taken it. Would seem rather ridiculous if you couldn't add a smartlink of any kind (even as an over barrel accessory), give it a heavy barrel, and other such niceness. Obviously you're not going to change the gas vent (there's none better), and suppressors are just ridiculous for machine guns in general anyway.

On top of that, it looks by the artwork in the SR4a book that the White Knight has a fore grip.
Umidori
A fun trick for a Heavy Weapons specialist is to have Foot Anchors which, in addition to supplying 1 RC per anchored foot for most normal surfaces, also act as cyberspurs! Blast them at range and slice them up in melee!

~Umidori
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Dumori @ Mar 22 2010, 11:45 PM) *
not quite the Arese alpha should rival it and diss out more hurt. it was 2 RC inbuild and can take 3 form gass vent adn all the other stuff.


The alpha is great for a variety of reasons, but needs more upgrading to rival the White Knight in pure RC. Also the WK has better range, and as said, belt fed.

So if for some reason you want lots of Dakka, and subtlety and comfort is not an issue, then WK is simply better for Heavy Weapons characters.
Faraday
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 23 2010, 03:36 PM) *
The alpha is great for a variety of reasons, but needs more upgrading to rival the White Knight in pure RC. Also the WK has better range, and as said, belt fed.

So if for some reason you want lots of Dakka, and subtlety and comfort is not an issue, then WK is simply better for Heavy Weapons characters.

And drones. Assuming the GM applies the "Drone RC=body" option.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 24 2010, 02:19 AM) *
And drones. Assuming the GM applies the "Drone RC=body" option.


And I think even that option is for smallish drones. Large Drones and vehicles have practically unlimited RC smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Mar 24 2010, 02:34 AM) *
And I think even that option is for smallish drones. Large Drones and vehicles have practically unlimited RC smile.gif



Indeed... Recoil Compensation equal to Body Rating is an OPTIONAL Rule...

Keep the Faith
Larme
QUOTE (AndyZ @ Mar 22 2010, 05:44 PM) *
"It’s equipped with a
detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation and cannot be further upgraded."

Which of these is true?

A.) It’s equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. The White Knight cannot be further upgraded.


It's definitely not this one. People who pick this one are just anti-munchkins who reflexively look for the nerfiest interpretation of every rule, valid or not. In order to get this interpretation, you'd need to add a comma that's not there before the "and." Adding commas that you wish were there? That's now how we do it in RAW town. Without the comma, the last clause is part of the description of the gas vent.

Also, consider: if they wanted to make the whole weapon non-upgradeable in its entirety, wouldn't they have been more clear? This would be a VERY SPECIAL RULE. There is NO OTHER GUN IN THE GAME that absolutely cannot be upgraded. You think they're going to create this absolutely special unique rule by adding a vague clause to the end of the description? No, they're going to be clear, and say "this gun cannot be upgraded in any way." Don't look for elephants in mouse holes. If it's a really special unique thing that doesn't exist anywhere else, they are not going to just sneak it in the back door without saying so explicitly. And they especially won't write it without even the comma required to make that interpretation possible.

And I don't buy the argument that it's too good unless it's nerfed. It's equivalent to an Ares Alpha, only with a bigger clip (pretty good) and no integral grenade launcher (WEAK SAUCE). If you nerf the White Knight, everyone will use the Alpha, and get what is basically a superior weapons package for their money. Hence, your goal of a nerfier game will NOT be achieved. People will go for the assault rifle that's just as good, and you will have nerfed for no reason.

QUOTE
B.) It’s equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. This recoil compensation cannot be further upgraded.


The subject of the clause is "gas vent system." The subsequent language describes the subject, the gas vent system. This option proposes that, without a comma or any other indicator, the subject of the sentence magically becomes "recoil compensation." That is just more wishful thinking by anti-munchkins.

QUOTE
C.) It’s equipped with a detachable folding stock and an integral gas-vent system that provides
5 points of recoil compensation. Although the integral system cannot be further upgraded with gas-vent systems, modifications like an underbarrel weight or heavy barrel are still possible.


This one is correct. As I said above, without a comma, the final clause describes the gas vent system. Without inserting an extra comma, it's the only way to read it. And they've had enough chances to errata the book and add the comma. It's unreasonable to assume that they just forgot to after this many revisions.
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