OK simple enough question. As stated in the SR4 rules (SR4 p. 297) lesser Dragons (Non-Greats) must use magic to assume Metahuman form. Assuming (for the GMs sake) that this is accomplished via the shapechange spell (i think i did read that somewhere, can't remember where though) How in the heck do they pull off a human form?(Or anything less than a Troll for that matter) A Dragon has a body of 12-15(per SR4 p. 296-297), and a human has a body of 1-6. There are multiple examples of this in canon (i.e the Dragons Damon and Perianwyr described in Running Wild p. 77 and Dragons of the Sixth World pgs. 160-161 and 169-171 respectfully) whose forms come nowhere close to having a high enough body for the spell.
Some clarification would be very helpful.
Full Version: Shapechange and NON-Great dragons
QUOTE (Dragonaxe @ Mar 23 2010, 12:14 PM) 
OK simple enough question. As stated in the SR4 rules (SR4 p. 297) lesser Dragons (Non-Greats) must use magic to assume Metahuman form. Assuming (for the GMs sake) that this is accomplished via the shapechange spell (i think i did read that somewhere, can't remember where though) How in the heck do they pull off a human form?(Or anything less than a Troll for that matter) A Dragon has a body of 12-15(per SR4 p. 296-297), and a human has a body of 1-6. There are multiple examples of this in canon (i.e the Dragons Damon and Perianwyr described in Running Wild p. 77 and Dragons of the Sixth World pgs. 160-161 and 169-171 respectfully) whose forms come nowhere close to having a high enough body for the spell.
Some clarification would be very helpful.
Some clarification would be very helpful.
metamagic. Maybe theres one that expands the limits of your shapechanging spells and abilities.
Valid question with a potentially dissatisfying answer: dragons are just awesome.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
The idea of knowing "most spells" doesn't really gel well with the notion of spell creation, unless you:
A) consider all RAW spells to have some natural property not shared by other spells, in which case the dragon only knows the RAW ones
B) assume that dragons just know whatever spell you can imagine except for the ones you don't want this particular dragon to have for story purposes
or C) assume they cast spells pretty much on the fly from a fundamental understanding of sorcery
I'd go with C, whereby the dragon knows a spell that works similarly to the shapechange spell but without the niggling restrictions, perhaps with a higher drain or something.
If, however, RAW does indeed specifically state they use the Shapechange spell that's in the book then it's a self-contradiction and there is no answer.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
The idea of knowing "most spells" doesn't really gel well with the notion of spell creation, unless you:
A) consider all RAW spells to have some natural property not shared by other spells, in which case the dragon only knows the RAW ones
B) assume that dragons just know whatever spell you can imagine except for the ones you don't want this particular dragon to have for story purposes
or C) assume they cast spells pretty much on the fly from a fundamental understanding of sorcery
I'd go with C, whereby the dragon knows a spell that works similarly to the shapechange spell but without the niggling restrictions, perhaps with a higher drain or something.
If, however, RAW does indeed specifically state they use the Shapechange spell that's in the book then it's a self-contradiction and there is no answer.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Mar 23 2010, 06:30 PM)
Valid question with a potentially dissatisfying answer: dragons are just awesome.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
The idea of knowing "most spells" doesn't really gel well with the notion of spell creation, unless you:
A) consider all RAW spells to have some natural property not shared by other spells, in which case the dragon only knows the RAW ones
B) assume that dragons just know whatever spell you can imagine except for the ones you don't want this particular dragon to have for story purposes
or C) assume they cast spells pretty much on the fly from a fundamental understanding of sorcery
I'd go with C, whereby the dragon knows a spell that works similarly to the shapechange spell but without the niggling restrictions, perhaps with a higher drain or something.
If, however, RAW does indeed specifically state they use the Shapechange spell that's in the book then it's a self-contradiction and there is no answer.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
The idea of knowing "most spells" doesn't really gel well with the notion of spell creation, unless you:
A) consider all RAW spells to have some natural property not shared by other spells, in which case the dragon only knows the RAW ones
B) assume that dragons just know whatever spell you can imagine except for the ones you don't want this particular dragon to have for story purposes
or C) assume they cast spells pretty much on the fly from a fundamental understanding of sorcery
I'd go with C, whereby the dragon knows a spell that works similarly to the shapechange spell but without the niggling restrictions, perhaps with a higher drain or something.
If, however, RAW does indeed specifically state they use the Shapechange spell that's in the book then it's a self-contradiction and there is no answer.
OK dumb question in response; RAW?
There are some spells which have questionable rules... Shapechange is one of them. I would just say they are using another spell as the one in the book (And a lot of magicians out there too)
Something like:
Bodychange (F/2)+1, Reach: self, sustained. Major Physical Change
Magic breaks down your body and builds you a new one. Your new Body has any form and size as you will it (in reasonable limits from 20/Force kg up to Force*100 kg mass) and has all physical attributes at 1. Every Net hit allows for an attribute to be increased by 2 points up to a maximum of force of the spell. This spell neither gives you any senses your new form should have nor any special abilities, qualities, or disadvantages. You retain your own mind, mental and special attributes, skills, senses and aura. If you stop sustaining Bodychange you will revert to your original form over time, depending on the difference in mass your two bodies had.
And done. Hm... something like this should be used then. GM approvel needed of course, but it shouldn't be too harsh.
Something like:
Bodychange (F/2)+1, Reach: self, sustained. Major Physical Change
Magic breaks down your body and builds you a new one. Your new Body has any form and size as you will it (in reasonable limits from 20/Force kg up to Force*100 kg mass) and has all physical attributes at 1. Every Net hit allows for an attribute to be increased by 2 points up to a maximum of force of the spell. This spell neither gives you any senses your new form should have nor any special abilities, qualities, or disadvantages. You retain your own mind, mental and special attributes, skills, senses and aura. If you stop sustaining Bodychange you will revert to your original form over time, depending on the difference in mass your two bodies had.
And done. Hm... something like this should be used then. GM approvel needed of course, but it shouldn't be too harsh.
QUOTE (Dragonaxe @ Mar 23 2010, 06:33 PM)
OK dumb question in response; RAW?
Rules As Written.
Catchy acronym; sometimes RAW rules turn out to be.. less than satisfying.
Occasionally contrasted with Rules As Intended.
Could they use the Decrease Attribute spell to get their body low enough, or does the wording of Shapechange prevent that?
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Mar 23 2010, 01:30 PM)
Valid question with a potentially dissatisfying answer: dragons are just awesome.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
The key point for me is in their description where it specifies they "know most spells", hinting at a magical expertise well beyond anything else on Earth.
This thread caused this to burst forth from my cancerous brain:
I Win (F/infinity), target area, duration permanent, major physical change
Yes. The dragon did just do that.
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 23 2010, 08:16 PM)
metamagic. Maybe theres one that expands the limits of your shapechanging spells and abilities.
Minding the fluff descriptions of dragon magic, I'd say they can easily do that and more.
I'm guessing dragons are among the few races not playable in SR4.
QUOTE (Dragonaxe @ Mar 23 2010, 06:14 PM)
Assuming (for the GMs sake) that this is accomplished via the shapechange spell (i think i did read that somewhere, can't remember where though) How in the heck do they pull off a human form?
The don't use the Shapechange spell.
QUOTE
Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal critter...
Dragons have to use a "Human Form" spell that's not in the books.
QUOTE (Daylen @ Mar 23 2010, 07:52 PM)
I'm guessing dragons are among the few races not playable in SR4.
Yes, except on the first of April.
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Mar 24 2010, 03:23 AM)
The don't use the Shapechange spell.
Dragons have to use a "Human Form" spell that's not in the books.
Dragons have to use a "Human Form" spell that's not in the books.
The new FAQ states humans are mundane critters for the purposes of the spell. It proceeds with disconcerting implications of the next question asked.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2010, 03:54 AM)
Yes, except on the first of April.
Was there a joke splat? Or just an announcement?
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 02:15 AM)
The new FAQ states humans are mundane critters for the purposes of the spell. It proceeds with disconcerting implications of the next question asked.
I've been ignoring FAQs for years as they caused more trouble than offering help way too often. They ain't rules anyway.
Simple solution? Dragons have the same power that Shapeshifters do. End of story.
~Umidori
~Umidori
QUOTE (Umidori @ Mar 24 2010, 02:27 AM)
Simple solution? Dragons have the same power that Shapeshifters do. End of story.
Great ones have by RAW, but not the small fellows.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 23 2010, 09:15 PM)
Was there a joke splat? Or just an announcement?
Joke announcement from a year or two ago.
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Mar 24 2010, 04:25 AM)
I've been ignoring FAQs for years as they caused more trouble than offering help way too often. They ain't rules anyway.
They are canon material published by the system's developers whether you like it or not. Sorry.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2010, 04:32 AM)
Joke announcement from a year or two ago.
Ahh, and here I was hoping for a preview at least.
That said, playing as the Greats could make a great intrigue campaign.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 02:36 AM)
They are canon material published by the system's developers whether you like it or not. Sorry.
If they were rules, they'd be in some errata. - Oh wait, there haven't been any erratas for some years... FAQ's are suggestions at the best. And I've seen to much nonsense in some FAQs to take them seriously.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 23 2010, 08:37 PM)
Ahh, and here I was hoping for a preview at least.
That said, playing as the Greats could make a great intrigue campaign.
That said, playing as the Greats could make a great intrigue campaign.
There was a preview. It wasnt even posted on the 1st of April. Dumpshockers got themselves all riled up about it, 2 weeks later they said "APRIL FOOLS!"
I think someone saw all the dumpshock chatter and said "pull it" lol
Also, they dont play that bad actually
Does anyone still have it?
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 04:24 AM)
Does anyone still have it?
there's a working link from the Sixth world wiki.
QUOTE (Dragonaxe @ Mar 24 2010, 07:11 AM)
there's a working link from the Sixth world wiki.
Aha, found it, thanks.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 24 2010, 04:29 AM)
Aha, found it, thanks.
No problem man.
QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 23 2010, 09:15 PM)
Was there a joke splat? Or just an announcement?
Aprils fool exerpt of Companion ...
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