Just how foolish would it be to mindprobe a johnson before deciding to take a run?

That depends widely on the game. In most games the target knows they are mindprobed, and mindprobe holds a Felony charge associated with it similar to rape.

The Johnson will likely have you all killed ASAP outright.

In a game with little to no consequences for actions, go crazy.

This all depends on the GM.

Look law chapter in the Seattle Survival Guide, I think it's covered there.
And if the Johnson offers to let you probe, walk away immediately and consider some plactic surgery pdq.

only with lots of lube

According to the BBB, it doesn't state that subjects of a Mind Probe spell are consciously aware of the spell. Of course, it doesn't state that the subject is unaware either.

Most GMs I know would rule that the subject is aware of the spell and will react accordingly.

If your GM rules that subject is aware, then I'd refrain from doing it because odds are nobody likes intruders entering uninvited and you can expect things to go to frag pretty fast.

If the subject is unaware of the spell, then go for it. Be advised that if the Johnson finds out, his response will be much the same as above. Additionally, magical support may tip him off to the runners and the spell.

Personally, I'd just skip it and not risk getting fragged in the process. Odds are, the Johnson won't have all the details and will only be presenting the details that were presented to him. Check the description of Johnsons in SotA (I think that's the book).

For all practical purposes, they're given a script and a budget and told to make it happen.

-Siege

I'm from the school of mind probe being felt by the target, they might not know they were mind probed depending on who they are, but a Johnson would know what just happened and that would be the same thing as saying:

" We refuse your offer and think you should start shooting at us now."

So I would say, bad idea. If however your GM says a mind probe is invisible and there's no magic anywhere near the Johnson, you might get away with it.

Kong

The problem is, perception test modifiers apply -- which leads me to believe it's a physical viewing of the subject casting a spell and not realizing the influence of magic on the subject.

If the subject is unable to view the caster, no perception check is possible and the spell effect is still valid (or so I would think).

-Siege

Perception includes sound, hearing, touch, and taste too (as do the modifiers). The spell "affected sense" could be unique to the spell. Mind probe might just be feeling one ruffle through the thoughts...

Mind Probe is not a mental manipulation spell; it is a detection spell. The only thing suggesting that the subject would feel anything is that stupid story at the start of the Second Edition book. Personally, I think it would be a pretty useless spell if the subject could "feel" it. I prefer it as an inobtrusive spell - that fits in with the overall paranoia of the game, and the phobia that the general public has about mages (namely, that someone who looks completely normal could telekinetically push them out into traffic or read their dirty secrets, by doing little more than thinking about it).


I think it's usually a really dumb idea to use on a Johnson, though. Most of them will have a high Willpower, and I imagine that any Johnson meeting a spellslinger will have some spell defense on tap - and even if the character "wins", the Johnson's wage mage will still let him know that the PC tried to cast a spell. And I agree that such a spell being detected, by either side, is likely to result in a very violent reaction.

I'd tend to decide how noticeable the use of Mind Probe is by just how invasive the spell was at the time. If you're just scanning surface thoughts then the target probably doesn't have any idea of it beyond the standard rules for noticing spell casting. As soon as the spell become interrogative rather than passive, however, I'd say the target would probably notice immediately. In a way it comes down to whether you view the spell as dredging up old memories and thoughts or whether it's merely 'viewing' those memories. The rules are pretty vague about the whole thing, really.

Of course, a good magician with Control Thoughts/Actions and Alter Memory can get away with being a bull in a china shop.

I keep remembering in TRFH when Yves kept casting Control Thoughts and such on all the corp people. You know. When it became TRFH.

Yeah. We've had bad experiences with Control Thoughts. Or at least they did. My experience was rather wonderful. I was in a run that almost went south when someone detected a mindprobe, though; fortunately the perpetrator cut and ran and I managed to pass myself off as an innocent bystander (effective charisma 11, gotta love the cultured tailored pheremones).

~J

Mind Probe = bad
Checking up with Legwork = good

Definatly look into the J but maybe not so straightforward, regardless of if he notices or not, if he ever finds out it would be *bad*.

The topic of this particular thread still bothers me.

-Siege

I'd be inclined to agree that Mindprobe is felt by the victim, otherwise it devalues the other spells such as Analyse Truth. It is still immensely powerful and useful spell though.

Just remind yourself that anything you can do to an NPC and NPC can do to you.

For those advocating the undetectable mind probe spell what stops your GM from probing the low WIL character in your group and getting a full list of the crimes your group has committed? I mean they'll never notice, their chances of resisting are slim to none. Think about it, an awakened mage/shaman without even initiating should be able to mindprobe your fave orc/troll sammy and find out not only what you've been up to but where all the bodies are buried. The best part of it is that you wouldn't have a clue it had happened until it was way too late for you to dig yourselves out of the grave they'd made for you.

Sure it's not going to happen out of the blue but the chances are after you've been around for a bit one law enforcement agency or another (or god forbid criminal organization/corp) is going to catch wind of your actions. Then all they need to do is send their resident mind mage to probe the afore mentioned Low WIL sammy through a telescope and bam, you're screwed. Blackmail information on old runs, locations of family members/dependants, the combo to the lock on your squat, who knows?

Seriously think about this, or more to the point be a little concerned that your GM might have already done so.

TBO

Here's an interesting spin -- wouldn't a subject had to have been mind probed before and told what was happening (or what had happened) so (s)he could identify the experience?

Otherwise it's just another sensation or feeling that they have nothing to attribute it to and will chalk it up to something else entirely.

-Siege

Perhaps, but if something suddently started playing fast forward and rewind with your brain what would you attribute it to. A psychlogical breakdown?

TBO

Provided that's the effect of the spell -- or you could find yourself in reflection, wondering why this or that crept into your mind.

It might even be an entirely different sensation and you're not aware of specifically of someone reading your thoughts and examining your memories.

"Oh no, I'm being mindprobed!" is probably not an immediate reaction. Unless, of course, you have something to compare it to.

-Siege

Brainscan 1st meeting with johnson, it states that if the players mindprobe there is a chance he will detect it, and if he detects it and believes that his mission was compromised he will immediately blow his brains out. if he doesn't believe his mission was compromised he will simply get up walk out and notify the players that they will never work in seattle again. This portion of the book says to me strongly that mindprobe is detectable, and quite possibly, the affected might even be able to tell what you're digging up. I'll get a page ref when I get home.

As I keep saying every so often, the TN for noticing magic of any variety is 4+Magic-Force. I see no reason why that wouldn't apply to Mindprobe.

~J

If you are blasted by a fireball do you have to make perception check to see it? No. You make a perception check to see if the mage is casting, not to notice the effects of it. I would think someone battering your will down and forcing themselves into your mind would be noticeable. That is what a will power check is, your mind resisting the alien entry with everything it has. I don't think it would go unnoticed.

I don't see anything wrong with physically threatening a Johnson before accepting a job and/or taking all of their cred. Beats most runs, anyway, as long as you can cover the nasty affair up. So mind probing certainly isn't out of the question.

As I think a few people have said, there are 3rd edition canonical references to mindprobe use and johnsons, and the facts are according to canon adventures, the johnson can resist, and can detect mind probes, without another person notifying him of the intrusion. This would make me believe that mindprobes are detectable, especially by trusted employees of corps who deal with untrustworthy scum like Shadowrunners. These people are actually probably highly trained to be wary of this kind of affront to good etiquette.

This does beg an interesting question -- how many runners use Astral security precautions when meeting with a Johnson?

-Siege

Mine? All the time. Watchers, spell defense, the works.

Does that mean that you'll know if someone hit you with a Detect Life? Both Mindprobe and Detect Life are Detection spells you know? If so, wouldn't the Detection line of spells suck even bigger time?

Only if you are in the area affect when the spell is cast. Mindprobe must always be cast on individual targets, thus the target shall always make a perception test to notice the casting.

Whether the effect is only noticed by sight is another matter.

A Transformed chimp would know he's been Transformed only if he suceeds in a Perception test, most probably TN 2. If the dumb thing is a bloody snail to begin with, you think the snail would be smart enough to notice the difference? "Oooo, I'm a big snail now!"

In the book First Run, in the module Supernova on page 23 it states that the Johnson named Nigel "has been trained to notice this spell and knows what it does. If a character uses Mind Probe. Nigel makes a Perception Test against the Force of the spell. If Nigel achieves even 1 success, he walks out of the meet". So I think that the spell has a define feel to it, but it requires training to recognize the feeling for what it is. I guess the training would be GM's call.

Just my two bits.
Bit_Buckethead

Read Plus ca Change in the BBB. The decker girl definitely knew she was being probed and didn't much care for it, nor did the mage's friend.

The difference being that Plus ca Change is is Second Edition and First Run is Third.

My mistake. Forgot, 3rd bbb had the run gone wrong in the facility

Not to derail the thread (since I think it is quite informative), but how do people deal with Control Thoughts? Similar situation.. if the subject knows their thoughts are being controlled (or remembers afterward), why use that spell instead of Control Actions? Sure, you don't have the -4 to tns, but you also have the constant chances for the subject to fight off the spell. This is another one I think could really use some extra description (same with Alter Memory).