So, I've decided to tweak the standard Metavariant mix a little, in the next game I run. Every single one of these was created by taking a base Metatype, and then applying appropriate Metagenic Qualities.

Human Metavariants
Narkati (10 BP): Shiva Arms (+15 BP), Striking Skin Pigmentation (-5 BP)
Ganesha (55 BP): Dermal Alteration: Rhino Hide (+10 BP), Elongated Limbs (+5 BP), Large Tusks (+10 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Body (+20 BP), Proboscis (+10 BP)
Therianthrope (10 BP): Functional Tail: Balance Tail (+5 BP), Satyr Legs (+10 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP)
Abomination (-125 BP): Proboscis (+10 BP), Shiva Arms (+15 BP), Shiva Arms (+15 BP), Functional Tail: Prehensile Tail (+10 BP), Monkey Paws (+5 BP), Frog Tongue (+10 BP), Defensive Secretion (+5 BP), Corrosive Spit (+10 BP), Greasy Skin (+5 BP), Physical Deformity (-25 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Strength (-5 BP), Impaired Agility (-5 BP), Impaired Reaction (-5 BP), Cephalopoidal Skull (-10 BP), Adiposis (-15 BP), Cyclopean Eye (-10 BP), Insectoid Features (-5 BP), Progeria (-30 BP), Slow Healer (-10 BP), Thorns (-10 BP), Stubby Arms (-5 BP), Extravagant Eyes (-5 BP), Unusual Skin Pigmentation (-5 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP), Scent Glands (-10 BP), Astral Hazing (-10 BP), Uncontrolled Metastasis (-20 BP), Sensitive System (-15 BP) yes this one is a joke oh god kill it

Dwarf Metavariants
Gnome (25 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Reaction (+20 BP), Neoteny (-10 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Strength (-5 BP)
Harumen (30 BP): Monkey Paws (+5 BP), Functional Tail: Prehensile Tail (+10 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Agility (+20 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Strength (-5 BP), Impaired Senses: no Thermographic Vision (-5 BP), Neoteny (-10 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP)
Koborokuru (25 BP): Celerity (+5 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP)
Menehune (25 BP): Underwater Vision (+5 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP)

Elf Metavariants
Nymph (45 BP): Glamour (+15 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Charisma (+20 BP), Symbiosis (-10 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Strength (-5 BP)
Night One (30 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Agility (+20 BP), Keen-Eared (+5 BP), Allergy: Sunlight/Moderate (-10 BP), Extravagant Eyes (-5 BP), Nocturnal (-10 BP)
Wakyambi (60 BP): Elongated Limbs (+5 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Intuition (+20 BP), Celerity (+5 BP)
Xapiri Thepe / Dryad (30 BP): Camouflage: Dynamic Coloration (+10 BP), Dermal Alteration: Bark Skin (+10 BP), Photometabolism (+5 BP), Extravagant Eyes (-5 BP), Striking Skin Pigmentation (-5 BP), Unusual Hair (-5 BP), Symbiosis (-10 BP)

Ork Metavariants
Hobgoblin (35 BP): Nasty Vibe (+5), Metagenic Improvement: Agility (+20 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Strength (-5 BP)
Ogre (30 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Body (+20 BP), Ogre Stomach (+5 BP), Adiposis (-15 BP)
Oni (50 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Strength (+20 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Willpower (+20 BP), Nasty Vibe (+5), Berserker (-10 BP), Striking Skin Pigmentation (-5 BP)
Satyr (45 BP): Celerity (+5 BP), Satyr Legs (+10 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Charisma (+20 BP), Impaired Body (-5 BP), Impaired Willpower (-5 BP)

Troll Metavariants
Cyclops (40 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Body (+20 BP), no Dermal Deposits (-10 BP), Cyclopean Eye (-10 BP)
Giant (70 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Body (+20 BP), Metagenic Improvement: Strength (+20 BP), Elongated Limbs (+5 BP), Toughness (+10 BP), Impaired Reaction (-5 BP), Impaired Charisma (-5 BP), Impaired Logic (-5 BP), no Dermal Deposits (-10 BP)
Fomori (50 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Charisma (+20 BP), no Dermal Deposits (-10 BP)
Minotaur (65 BP): Metagenic Improvement: Strength (+20 BP), Satyr Legs (+10 BP), Goring Horns (+5 BP), no Dermal Deposits (-10 BP)

Firefly
Race: Sprite
Qualities: Insectoid Features, 360 Degree Eyesight, Granite Shell (Chitin), Setae, Shiva Arms X2, Bioluminesence, Extravagant Eyes (Glowing Insect Eyes), Nocturnal.

Originally a fusion between a firefly spirit and Sprites that accelerated into several small tribes. Lives in small settlements in swamps and amongst dense vegitation.

Stinkbug
As above, exchange bioluminescence and Extravagant eyes to Scent Glands

Hm yeah. I was abit surprised when i read the Night Ones and Fomori's in the Companion. Why didn't the Fomori got his charisma and lost his dermal plating like back then? Why is a Night one completely HORRIBLE? Really it is just a piled up disadvantages on top of the elf.

Most of your entries are a bit better, yes.

To this day I still don't understand why Satyrs are classified as Orks. The penalty to Charisma alone is mind-boggling. I'd make them a subset of Humans (now that Humans are listed as having metavariants) or Elves, though I understand why they avoided making them Elves originally -- they already had way too many variants.

Well, I could easily bump the Satyr up by +20 BP and give them +1 Charisma, bringing them back to Human-scale.

Hrm. Is it just me, or is the cost of Metagenic Attribute Improvements really high? I mean, if we were building basic Trolls as a metavariant, they'd be around 175 points!

Just making them a Human metavariant with Satyr Legs would make the most sense and put them right at 10 BP. They're little more than half-man half-goat, afterall. It's the active penalty to Charisma that they suffer as an Ork that I always hated. And considering that they really don't share any qualities at all with a standard Ork just left me scratching my head.

Well, they kinda do - they're gruff, earthy, and crass. I went ahead and bumped Charisma back to human normal, dropped Willpower instead, and dropped Body down to 7.

I still really think they should be an Ork subtype, for consistency across SR versions if nothing else. Also, Celerity + Satyr Legs + Strength 8 was too good to pass up.

Gruff, earthly and crass? So they're dwarves?

Not trying to argue with you. I'm just stating why I always hated it, and it's something that comes up quite a bit for me since one of my favorite characters of all time is a satyr. It's just really curious that they went ork with it, especially since one of the archetypical examples of an elf, Puck from a Midsummer Night's Dream, is often depicted or described as a faun or satyr.

eh, I'm okay with them being Orks. It's no weirder than Gnomes being a Dwarf metatype.

Hrm. On reflection, it seems like building them out of the base type + Metagenetic Qualities leads to *much* higher BP costs for anyone with Attribute tweaks. The Giant, in particular, seems a bit over-costed for Attributes (although to be honest, the extra Reach on top of base Troll reach probably makes up for it.

And now, a full breakdown:

Human Metavariants
Human (0 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 7
Narkati (10 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 6; Extra Arms; Unusual Color
Ganesha (55 BP): B 7 / S 6 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 6; Prehensile Proboscis; Large Tusks; +1 Reach; +1B/I Armor
Therianthrope (10 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 6; Balance Tail, Satyr Legs, Unusual Hair

Dwarf Metavariants
Dwarf (25 BP): B 7 / S 8 / A 6 / R 5 / W 7 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 6; IR Vision; +2 Resist Poisons; Half Running Speed
Gnome (25 BP): B 6 / S 7 / A 6 / R 6 / W 7 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Childlike Appearance; Half Running Speed
Harumen (25 BP): B 6 / S 7 / A 7 / R 5 / W 7 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Night Vision; Prehensile Tail; Monkey Paws; Half Running Speed
Koborokuru (25 BP): B 7 / S 8 / A 6 / R 5 / W 7 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; IR Vision
Menehune (25 BP): B 7 / S 8 / A 6 / R 5 / W 7 / C 6 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Underwater Vision; Half Running Speed

Elf Metavariants
Elf (30 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 7 / R 6 / W 6 / C 8 / L 6 / I 6 / E 6; Low-Light Vision
Nymph (45 BP): B 5 / S 5 / A 7 / R 6 / W 6 / C 9 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Glamour; Symbiosis
Night One (30 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 8 / R 6 / W 6 / C 7 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Allergy: Sunlight/Mild; Nocturnal; Keen Eared
Wakyambi (60 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 7 / R 6 / W 6 / C 8 / L 6 / I 7 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; +1 Reach; +50% Running Speed
Xapiri Thepe / Dryad (30 BP): B 6 / S 6 / A 7 / R 6 / W 6 / C 8 / L 6 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Adaptive Camouflage; Photometabolism; +1B/I Armor; Symbiosis

Ork Metavariants
Ork (20 BP): B 8 / S 8 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 6 / E 6; Low-Light Vision
Hobgoblin (35 BP): B 7 / S 7 / A 7 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Nasty Vibe
Ogre (30 BP): B 9 / S 8 / A 6 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Digests Anything; Half Running Speed; -1 Dodge
Oni (50 BP): B 8 / S 9 / A 6 / R 6 / W 7 / C 5 / L 5 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Horns; Nasty Vibe; Berserker
Satyr (45 BP): B 7 / S 8 / A 6 / R 6 / W 5 / C 6 / L 5 / I 6 / E 5; Low-Light Vision; Doubled Running Speed

Troll Metavariants
Troll (40 BP): B 10 / S 10 / A 5 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 5 / E 6; IR Vision; Horns; +1B/I Armor; +1 Reach; +50% Running Speed
Cyclops (40 BP): B 11 / S 10 / A 5 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 5 / E 5; IR Vision; Horns; Cyclopean Eye; +1 Reach; +50% Running Speed
Giant (70 BP): B 11 / S 11 / A 5 / R 5 / W 5 / C 4 / L 4 / I 5 / E 5; IR Vision; +2 Reach; +1 Physical Damage Box; +50% Running Speed
Fomori (50 BP): B 10 / S 10 / A 5 / R 6 / W 6 / C 6 / L 5 / I 5 / E 5; IR Vision; +1 Reach; +50% Running Speed
Minotaur (65 BP): B 10 / S 11 / A 5 / R 6 / W 6 / C 5 / L 5 / I 5 / E 5; IR Vision; Goring Horns; +1 Reach; Doubled Running Speed

Because you only looked at the 'stats' vs what they represent. The explanation was there.

In the write up in Runner's Companion it states that the satyr's are Orc Metavariants for a number of reasons. 1) Being that the DNA fits the Orc. Those can be mapped now. But they also share the other 'orcish qualities' Profuse body hair, robust stature, born in multiples (litters?), rapid onset of physical maturity. (( like 7-9 instead of 16 for humans)), shorter gestation times and extremely shortened lifespans. (( I think 'old' orcs are in their 30s. They don't live half as long as the other races but breed much faster)).

Yes, and I can write fluff to rationalize them being a human or even elf metavariant, too. Your point?

And, for the record, my comments aren't about their 'stats.' It's about what a satyr is as presented in mythology. A satyr with a weak personality (hindered Charisma) and no boost to Willpower is kind of goofy.

My point is you asked "Why" They told you "Why" if you don't like what they said, that's you not liking what they said. That's different from there being 'no reason'.

There's reason. You just don't like it. lol. There were a number of reasons cited. Your response seems to back up my thought though. You don't care about the 'fluff' and the rational. You're just looking at the stats.

Remember.. the game (fluff) doesn't exist to justify the stats. The stats are there to allow you to express the Game (fluff).

As for the Charisma, I think you're forgetting a few things about Satyrs from history. They wern't all just party animals. They did some dark things. Pan, did some very dark things. Again, with the Charisma... "Gruff as a goat" Comes into play.

Every Fantasy/sci fi/whatever has it's own take on the biggies. Elves. Orcs. Trolls, Satyrs, ect. In Shadowrun this is how they chose to express Satyrs. (( You can also check out the Animal books for wild satyrs which are something totally different.

But it's not the stats the Doc is complaining about, it's the mythology behind Satyrs compared to how their presented. That has nothing to do with stats and I believe he's right. Satyrs have always been shown in a different light then how their presented here. It makes much more sense from a mythology stand point as most of the races are done to make them closer to Humans or replace one of the Elf subraces.

I understand that everyone does things differently, don't get me wrong I like it too, it's just his complaint's weren't based on stats and SR has kept most things relatively close to mythology...well sorta. By myth standards basically all the base races should be different. To be honest it kinda bugs me that most fantasy draws it's races from Tolkien and even farther back Norse mythology. There are other cultures out there people, actually do some work and check em out

Don't tell me what the Hell I'm looking at. I know exactly what I'm looking at. Your inability to process it, which is exactly what WyldKnight pointed out above, is your failing. It's even more bewildering with your rambling on about Pan and other mythological satyrs and fauns, yet you still don't grasp that Shadowrun's satyrs are nothing like them whatsoever. I'd rather they were. Neither their descriptions nor their stats match them in any way, shape, or form beyond happening to have goat-like legs. I'd prefer real satyrs, and real satyrs would be better served as a human metavariant -- something that didn't even exist in concept until 4th Edition.

If satyrs never existed in the game and someone was trying to create stats for them, I guarantee you no one would say "let's start with an ork!" Hell, they're a pinnacle example of a changeling; a Human with Satyr Legs and Vestigal Horns. Maybe with Glamour, Nasty Vibe and/or Critter Spook, too.


And you seem to think Charisma is some kinda of happy joyful stat. It's not. Hitler, for instance, was one of the most charismatic people in history. Charisma is a measure of your force of personality, not how likable you are. That's what Etiquette and the other Social Skills are for, and even then it depends on your intent.

Feel better? Throwing a little tantrum and cussing at someone? That make you feel big? It work for you in real life when you're wrong? Doesn't really work on the internet man. Just makes you look childish. Gets you in trouble for going against forums rules. That's all. It's not needed.

You asked a question. I pointed out the answer. Don't get bent at me.



Sure they are. You just don't like it. You seem to be under some sort of Disney delusion or something. That satyrs are all happy go lucky sorts with cherib like cheeks playing pan pipes and playing in meadows. They wern't. But sure. Insult me some more. I'm sure that'll make your point. Even though you've been given the answer.



I disagree. Clearly so did the writers. Multiple times. There's been retacons in Shadowrun before. Things have 'changed' as "further research' has been done. The human metavariants are prime example. Things have changed. The Satyrs in Shadowrun have not. So. Your opinion, while valid as an opnion, is not universally held. Getting upset and pitching a fit and insulting fellow posters and being a jerk won't change it. They're not going to go 'Oh wow. Dr Funk doesn't like how we did satyrs. Better reprint it! STAT!". They've put them out at least twice as they are. It's how they want them.



And clearly, as not only did someone do EXACTLY that.. but it made it though review.. was approved, and saw print, not once. But twice. In two compleately different books. In two completely different editions.

So... You're just wrong. Your OPINION Differs from RAW. But it doesn't make you right. Just because you erroneously guarantee it. Clearly the fact that they are different than you think and THEY print the books and you, to my knowledge, do not... should tell you that at least SOME people thought they fit that way, and wrote it that way, and managed to get it published that way.


So get upset. Yell and scream. Insult people. Talk down to them. Act surperior and make statements with Guarentees that are false.

At the end of the day your opinion is still your own but not shared by some. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

I'm sorry, but Godwin's law says that you lost the arguement right here.

No.

Godwin's law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Considering you've been doing little more than going around trying to pick fights lately, then trying to act superior when someone reacts to it, you're going to have to forgive me for not giving much of a damn about your petty, one-dimensional, and quite frankly ignorant thinking. Ignorant because you rarely, if ever, get your facts straights.


No, I didn't ask a question. I stated a personal preference and explained that preference, then voiced my dismay at the current state of those specific rules. It's absolutely shocking that you can't even get that right.

Maybe you, just like every other little fight-begging twerps around here, should go re-read my first few posts and actually read them for what they say, not for whatever twisted message you think they say because of your worthless opinion about me as a person. Because, honestly, I really don't care what you or any of the others think of me. Please see a few viable solutions below, too. (But don't bother too much with the second.)

As Emy pointed out, Godwin's law is about comparing posters to Hitler or the Nazi's. Using them as a valid and accurate example is hardly part of it.

Ahem...



Its rule number one for a reason, folks. Please cease the personal attacks and stick to the topic. We will be discussing whether this exchange warrants any official warnings.

Or more specifically:

Godwin's Law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances is understandable. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

So anyway! Is it just me, or is the "Adiposis" Metagenic Negative Quality really harsh, compared to other 15-point Negative Qualities?

Apparently, RAW it:

1. Halves your movement speed
2. Gives you a -3 dice pool modifier to all physical activities, including combat and Dodge.
3. Doubles the rate at which you accumulate Fatigue damage.

EDIT: Huh. Actually, scratch that. It looks like all 15-point Negative Qualities (and worse) jump up really high in nastiness, compared to 5- or 10-point Negative Qualities. I mean, heck, Symbiosis actually lets you gain bonuses in many situations. It seems like there's a really harsh jump between 10 and 15 points.

Part of the problem is that mythology has confused Satyrs with Fauns. Originally they were quite different; Satyrs were simply male followers of Bachus, who looked essentially human. Sort of a male nymph, if you will. Fauns were the ones with goat legs, and very shy / docile. But then Christianity came along and lumped both in with Satan (as they tended to do with any male pagan spirit), so you get the phyisicaly powerful, lusty, goat legged "satyr" of Reniasance art, a creature used mostly as an excuse to produce rape porn for rich patrons.
(Mind, this isn't a condemnation of Christianity, or of Renaisance art. Or of rape pron, for that matter. Its just simple tracking of mythology.)

Orks, being the "socially undesirable" metahuman type, tend to be the "go to" type for such "mythological creatures". Oni, Ogres, and, well, orcs, are all thought to be the type that would drag off human women and ravish them. Trolls get the troll / giant / cyclops / minotaur thing- IE, they would drag of an EAT human women.

Obviously, this is from a game designer perspective- I can't see how you'd wrap such a theory up in game-world logic, except to do a lot of handwaving and say "morphic resonance" every other sentence.

Yep. Reason is, you are supposed to be limited both in the points you get from -quals, and how many you take. So if you want to max out on the points you get from -quals, you'll have to take some that are worth -15 or more...

Sebastian! How wonderful to see you again! Old-timers coming out of the woodwork lately....

It's kinda funny you bring this up, since I kind of touched on it ever-so-lightly in Running Wild...why are there so many weird vampire expressions, for instance, and so many weird kinds of ghouls? All of them are concentrated in specific regions, too, so I'm thinking that, with both metaspecies and HMHVV being magical phenomena, that perhaps there's some strange cultural "bending" of mana in the regions affected, which affects how metaspecies and HMHVV expresses.

Basically, "cultural morphism" or "morphic resonance" or what-have-you is as good an explanation as any, and better than most.

So, to break down the specific differences between these stats and the RAW/RC stats:

Nymphs (which is a much better term than "Dryad", I think - the green-skinned ones that photosynthesize should have been called "Dryads") get an additional +1 Charisma (max 9), but -1 Strength and -1 Body (max 5) in addition to the book's Glamour and Symbiosis.
Night Ones swap the Elf Agility and Charisma bonuses, and can choose "Unusual Skin/Hair" or "Albino".
Wakyambi get Celerity and +1 Intuition.
Xapiri Thepe ("Dryads") gain Adaptive Camoflauge, Bark Skin, and Symbiosis.

Satyrs lose the Ork Charisma penalty, trading it for a Willpower penalty, and gain Celerity on *top* of Satyr Legs. Their Orkish Body bonus is also lowered by 1. (They're still Orks, though.)
Ogres raise their Body bonus by 1 and keep Ogre Stomach, but gain Adiposis.
Hobgoblins drop their Body and Strength bonuses by 1, but gain +1 Agility and Nasty Vibe (instead of "Vindictive").
Oni get Berserker and Nasty Vibe on top of all the book's stats.

Giants gain Elongated Limbs on top of a Troll's normal +1 Reach, for a total +2 Reach, and raise the Troll's Body and Strength bonuses by 1 each, but lose an additional point of Reaction, Charisma, and Logic. They also trade Dermal Deposits for Toughness, but don't get Bark Skin.
Minotaurs gain Satyr Legs and +1 Strength.
Fomori trade the Body bonus and Arcane Arrester for losing the Troll's natural Charisma penalty.

Gnomes lower the Dwarf Body and Strength bonuses by 1 each, but also don't suffer the Dwarf Reaction penalty, and gain +1 to Willpower instead of Arcane Arrester.

I like that idea because it's more magical but you could also make a strong case for complex epigenetic interactions between the meta genes, ethic specific genes and (were applicable) the HMHVV virus.

But if metavariants were based on genetics then wouldn't they pop up wherever their people were rather than the region in which they were found? Wouldn't that mean that a man in California with some Irish blood in him could change into a Fomori?

Doesn't it allude to such occurrences in numerous descriptions of the metavariants?

They do. Just to a lessor extent. This exact thing is spoken about in the book, about why some hobgoblin populations have sprung up in places other than the middle east, and how Greek communities, might spit out a satyr or two in Boston or Tampa.

The book seems to allude to (( With out Saig directly, so your ST can do what he wants with it. Sign of a GOOD roleplaying game)), that it's a combination of them both. That it _is_ genetic, but has been heavily influenced by mythical expectation.

Which.. is kinda neat. If your game wants to be more pure scientific, it can be 99.9% genetic. If you want more magical mythical influence it can be 70% genetic 30 percent magical expectation.

It's really quite clever how they worked it out.

And the good thing about America being a melting pot is that you don't have to come up with a contrived story about how your character moved to Seattle from Ireland, or Germany, or Japan, or whatever, just because you want to play a metavariant.

QFT!!

Which is awesome for freaks like me that's never played a human in SR.