This is true for most applications of sound suppressors. They are best for masking your location, not for killing people without anyone noticing. When using relatively powerful handguns, even with a hefty sound suppressor you're talking about something like 110-120dB or so for the shot itself, and then you have to deal with the probably supersonic projectile, the noise of projectile impacting, and the propensity of severely wounded people (such as those suffering from a firearm-related injury) to scream loudly.

So am I. You may note that us firearm-insane haven't been starting a whole lot of new threads about these things lately. It's just that new people start asking the same questions about some things in the game, so we keep giving the same answers. And then someone counters with the same stuff that we've debunked a dozen times in threads past, and on it goes.

And when someone asks about how weapons really work (like MaxHunter did), it's hard to answer in a way that doesn't make the canon SR way of handling things seem a bit odd. Not that we even try, of course.

im not entirely sure if he asked about how it realy worked, or if he just asked how to handle them (or more specificaly, the EXEX ammo) in the SR world...

what im reacting to is the need to drag the silencer "debate" into this thread. done by jaid, followed up by you...

but as its allready here let me put som more bullets into it...

i would say for arguments sake that the SR silencer/supressor is somehow able to slow a normal bullet down to subsonic speed. ok so that should have some impact on range and penetration power. maybe reduce the range of all weapons by say 10%, and reduce the AP by 1-2 points. its not physics realistic but should illustrate the effect of subsonic ammo

still, the silencer reduce the number of dice on a perception test, it does not elimitate it totaly (alltho that -4 can realy make it hard to pick up, or atleast figure that it came from somwhere close by).

ok, so maybe EX and EXEX ammo should come with a +2 dice modifier on perception tests? that somewhat offset the use of a silencer...

allso, general gunfire only needs 1 hit to be noticed...

I'm pretty sure.

Oh, I had no intention to "debate" sound suppressors. Jaid himself apparently separated the game mechanics of it and the logical explanation of what's happening, so I expounded on that. Since SR4 doesn't differentiate between noticing a shot fired and knowing where it came from, other than by the amount of successes required on the Perception test, I don't think the way suppressors are dealt with ruleswise is too much of a problem.

Personally, I don't think the subsonic ammunition thing is something to worry much about. For a quick fix, you could just change the perception test modifier to -2 when the ammunition is clearly supersonic, such as when the pistol or SMG ammunition was not acquired for suppressed use, or with rifle-caliber weapons.

oops in any case, he is asking about their existanse. and if so, what role they are used in and their stability when exposed to heat and other reasons to detonate...

heh, sounds simpler and more effective then my mess of modifiers

guess i did a bit of shooting from the hip there... (on the silencer "debate" that is)

As I mention in the thread I linked, ammunition that's in some ways similar does exist: a multi-purpose small arms cartridge that is pyrotechnically initiated (on impact, an incendiary mixture ignited, setting of the explosive) and designed to penetrate armor.

They are used for destroying equipment and vehicles at long ranges -- this is because they are only effective with very large caliber small arms (ie. .50 BMG rifles and HMGs), and because they have a much more destructive through-armor effect than conventional AP rounds. High explosive small arms ammunition designed for anti-personnel use does not exist, nor would it make much sense -- you can get the same effect easier by using smart materials with deforming bullets. Not that .50 BMG or bigger firearms really need dedicated anti-personnel ammunition in the first place.

They are less stable than explosive ammunition that is detonated with a fuze, but you can hit them with a hammer and they won't detonate, and you need to heat up the insides of the bullet to a temperature much higher than where the primer will go off -- ie. the propellant will pop off the bullet (and burn for a while) before the explosive in the bullet catches fire.

The cartridges are probably held in a container where the bullets won't fly away from the source of heat when this happens, so you would eventually start getting some *poofs* (not *booms*, the explosive will only burn since there's no sharp impact or massive pressure). Since all the everything inside the cartridge container would be in the high 3-digit Celsius temperature range at this point, you might even get a few short chain reactions where the bullets are lying right next to each other. Once the incendiary mixtures in the bullets catch fire (which requires a very high temperature), the cartridge container will continue burn very hot for a while on its own.

(This is all guesswork. I have never witnessed the effects of direct exposure to a conflagration on pyrotechnically initiated explosive ammunition, nor heard of anyone trying that.)

IRL, heating up all that metal stored inside a closed container worn on your body would require a very long, direct exposure to a conflagration, such as being covered in an incendiary material for a few minutes, at which point the person carrying the ammo is way past caring about the fate of those cartridges.

In canon Shadowrun, of course, things work very differently. Elemental fire can immediately detonate every flammable item carried by a person, and explosive small arms ammunition is extremely unstable. Run it however you want to.

Simpler would be just moving the range up one category. Short becomes medium, and so on. That way you've got a -1 on the dice pool, and the maximum range is reduced.

Is this errata? My book says it follows the rules for Ex ammo, which requires a critical glitch.

ill interpet that as him hearing it but not finding it any diffrent from a old car backfiring and similar. hell, the detonation of a big firecracker may get more attention then this gets.

hmm, even the supersonic part of the bullet may be explained away as some air drone going high speed past the building

ie, he will notice no problem, but he will not think of it as anything other then a odd noise. but the next one may get that observer in detail mod if it happens close together (first time makes him wake up and pay attention).

btw, where did you get that "not take a observe in detail" modification?
are you equaling that to the modifier for being distracted?

i would rather say that observing in detail gives you the seriously looking for mod, or +3 on the test.

overall it comes down to how one wants to interpet the modifiers on på 117. funny thing is that silencers give a -4 modifier, and require 2 hits to spot...

maybe they are a bit over the top silent?

still, people can be very oblivious to things that happen if they are not on alert. and even more so if they try to focus on some task...

But that makes no sense. A silencer should increase range, no decrease it.

Page 119 SR4

USING PERCEPTION
To determine how observant a character is of her surround-
ings, the gamemaster can call for Perception Tests. Unless a
character specifically takes an Observe in Detail Simple Action
to perceive, she is considered to be distracted by whatever task
is at hand (suffering a –2 dice pool modifier).

So unless you observe in detail (actively listening for suspicious sounds) then you have a -2 modifier while doing whatever other task you have at hand (like looking at a screen etc). Here's the fun part, someone with no perception skill would have to default and get an additional -1, and would probably not hear a thing even without silencer.