My friends and I have been chatting and came up with a hypothetical.
Make a mage. Give him 5 willpower and 5 logic (not a terribly unreasonable thing for a mage.) Give him a magic of 5 (also not unreasonable), a Spellcasting skill group of 4 and buy him a spellcasting (combat) focus rating 2 or 3 (whatever one can get at creation.) Let's say he has an Edge of 4.
His turn comes up in the Big Fight. He overcasts a force 10 manaball. He rolls 13 dice (Magic+Sorcery+Edge.) If he gets even one net success over his opponents willpower + counterspelling (if any) roll he does at least 11 damage. To everyone in the area of the spell. He then rolls 12 or 13 dice against the drain which has a value of 8. He gets 4 hits on average leaving him with a grand total of 4 points of physical damage whilst his enemies heads all a-splode. If he is merely obliterating one guy the drain is two less. Leaving him with a mild injury and the satisfaction of having one-shotted the biggest badass on the field.
How worried should I be about this, because let me tell you, I'm a little worried.
Full Version: Force 10 Manaballs
Are you adding in any other kinds of penalties, such as vision modifiers?
You bring up a good point. But at the same time, if your GM makes you go up against this sort of thing constantly, it's time to stuff his head into the toilet and flush.
As a GM myself, I could conceivably have every single goon the PC's go up against be wearing a gyro harness with a Ingram WhiteKnight LMG attached to it, with perhaps some EX Explosive Ammo for good measure. They do nothing but fire narrow bursts on full-auto. But I don't... because it's NOT FUN.
While we all may giggle and joke about sadistic GMs, ones who are truely that way aren't doing anything more than wasting people's time.
As a GM myself, I could conceivably have every single goon the PC's go up against be wearing a gyro harness with a Ingram WhiteKnight LMG attached to it, with perhaps some EX Explosive Ammo for good measure. They do nothing but fire narrow bursts on full-auto. But I don't... because it's NOT FUN.
While we all may giggle and joke about sadistic GMs, ones who are truely that way aren't doing anything more than wasting people's time.
You could worry, if you want to. I prefer not to and remember that an NPC can have an appreciably lower life-span and representation in a game. If the players start dropping Force 10 spells all the time, I see no reason why an NPC couldn't as well. If that's the power level of your game, then it seems fine to me. Just makes Counterspelling that much more important.
This is also why I often put up a mana barrier around NPC troops. My players didn't understand why until the team's mage tried to cast through the barrier and remembered that targets behind a mana barrier add the Force of the barrier to their magic resistance test. Add a sustaining focus, or a handy bound spirit, to hold the spell for the enemy mage and you've got basically another source of Counterspelling dice that are added to the already counterspelled team providing Attribute + Counterspelling + Barrier Force dice to resist. Now the caster probably takes drain and the spell may not even do anything to some of the targets.
This is also why I often put up a mana barrier around NPC troops. My players didn't understand why until the team's mage tried to cast through the barrier and remembered that targets behind a mana barrier add the Force of the barrier to their magic resistance test. Add a sustaining focus, or a handy bound spirit, to hold the spell for the enemy mage and you've got basically another source of Counterspelling dice that are added to the already counterspelled team providing Attribute + Counterspelling + Barrier Force dice to resist. Now the caster probably takes drain and the spell may not even do anything to some of the targets.
| QUOTE (Waltermandias) |
| How worried should I be about this, because let me tell you, I'm a little worried. |
A little is ok, everything more is too much.
Combat Spells aren't that impressive anymore.
Like they told me in my second week of military service: spread out, so one grenade won't catch you all.
..yeah, grenades on the other hand...
Yes loose formation is definately handy, then again if theres that amount of enemies point their weapons at the group they probably don't have a hope in hells chance of actually getting out of the situation save using the force 10 ball spell to "clear a way out"
Might be better to cast a bolt on three differents targets then ...
| QUOTE (Waltermandias @ Mar 28 2006, 05:27 AM) |
| His turn comes up in the Big Fight. He overcasts a force 10 manaball. He rolls 13 dice (Magic+Sorcery+Edge.) If he gets even one net success over his opponents willpower + counterspelling (if any) roll he does at least 11 damage. To everyone in the area of the spell. He then rolls 12 or 13 dice against the drain which has a value of 8. He gets 4 hits on average leaving him with a grand total of 4 points of physical damage whilst his enemies heads all a-splode. If he is merely obliterating one guy the drain is two less. Leaving him with a mild injury and the satisfaction of having one-shotted the biggest badass on the field. How worried should I be about this, because let me tell you, I'm a little worried. |
The Magic + Sorcery is good enough for most targets. Save the Edge for when there are mages around. Min/max the character a bit more and it starts to get even more out of hand.
Here is one for you:
Stunbolt (F/2-1 drain). Cast at Force 9 yields 4 physical drain. Your mage will on average soak all the drain, and he will be dealing 10+ points of stun to his targets. Use a sustaining focus to give himself extra initiative passes, and do it three times per combat turn for extra fun!
edit: btw, manaball has a drain value of F/2+2. If you cast it at force 10 it will have 7 physical drain not 8. Cast it at force 9 and it will have 6 physical drain.
| QUOTE (The Horror) |
| Stunbolt (F/2-1 drain). Cast at Force 9 yields 4 physical drain. |
3 actually, Drain is rounded down.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee @ Mar 28 2006, 06:32 AM) | ||
3 actually, Drain is rounded down. |
Thanks, my mistake.
| QUOTE (Waltermandias @ Mar 27 2006, 05:27 PM) |
| If he gets even one net success over his opponents willpower + counterspelling (if any) roll he does at least 11 damage. To everyone in the area of the spell. He then rolls 12 or 13 dice against the drain which has a value of 8. He gets 4 hits on average leaving him with a grand total of 4 points of physical damage whilst his enemies heads all a-splode. |
1) Goon-level bad guys with Body ratings of 3 will indeed likely get one-shotted by this spell. That's okay; that's what they're there for. Fortunately, those goons will have effectively given the offending mage a 4P wound with their deaths.
2) Goon-level bad guys are indeed squishy, but they also like to come in waves. 4P drain gets inconvenient when you stack it up a few times over the course of a single firefight.
3) Even goon-level bad guys can know when to duck for cover and start lobbing grenades or blind-fire sprays at a magician's position.
4) If your mage is casting at Force 10, then even mundanes will see it coming: The threshold to spot spellcasting is (6-Force), meaning anything over Force 5 is superobvious. The mage might get away with his big whammy once, but then you can bet he's going to be Target Number One for future return fire. Until someone else on the team does something more frightening, of course.
5) Non-goon bad guys -- lieutenant and big boss types -- are potentially going to have a good amount of defenses. I'm not talking just dedicated Counterspelling overwatch, but also things like higher attributes, platelet factories, high pain tolerance, and whatnot. If you build your big baddies too fragile (or too exposed), then you're going to have some shortlived masterminds.
6) Non-goon bad guys have a decent supply of Edge. They absolutely should not use it for anything except survival. Don't use it to attack the PCs; that makes the encounter more unsatisfactorily deadly. However, if your mastermind just refuses to die despite all odds, then his eventual downfall will feel all the sweeter to the PCs.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Combat Spells aren't that impressive anymore. |
The fact that most targets of a spell have only half of the casting mages dice pool makes combat spells really nasty.
From my viewpoint magic should be nasty. Going up against a mage should be something any mundane thinks at least twice about. Not only would spells be one of the best ways to see you dead, but if roleplayed right most mundanes shouldn't know much about what they're facing, at least if they don't have the relevant knowledge skills.
Let the mage cast that force 10 spell if he wants to because if the drain hits even as low as average he should really stay hidden for the rest of the fight. You have to remember: every time a character takes damage in Shadowrun that character becomes a bit more weakened and prone to take more damage, both in the form that they're easier to hit again and stand less chance of resisting.
Let the mage cast that force 10 spell if he wants to because if the drain hits even as low as average he should really stay hidden for the rest of the fight. You have to remember: every time a character takes damage in Shadowrun that character becomes a bit more weakened and prone to take more damage, both in the form that they're easier to hit again and stand less chance of resisting.
My understanding of the rules is that damage/drain resistance are one of the things that wound modifiers specifically do NOT apply to.
Yes, combat spells are frightening and dangerous. They can kill a whole lot of undefended goons in one easy shot. Of course, so can grenades, gasses, autofire, and all that other good stuff runners keep in their pockets. Magic is just one of those things that most characters don't have the option of using, so it always seems a little out of whack.
Yes, combat spells are frightening and dangerous. They can kill a whole lot of undefended goons in one easy shot. Of course, so can grenades, gasses, autofire, and all that other good stuff runners keep in their pockets. Magic is just one of those things that most characters don't have the option of using, so it always seems a little out of whack.
| QUOTE (Waltermandias) |
| His turn comes up in the Big Fight. He overcasts a force 10 manaball. He rolls 13 dice (Magic+Sorcery+Edge.) If he gets even one net success over his opponents willpower + counterspelling (if any) roll he does at least 11 damage. To everyone in the area of the spell. He then rolls 12 or 13 dice against the drain which has a value of 8. He gets 4 hits on average leaving him with a grand total of 4 points of physical damage whilst his enemies heads all a-splode. If he is merely obliterating one guy the drain is two less. Leaving him with a mild injury and the satisfaction of having one-shotted the biggest badass on the field. |
Is there a mage on the other side? Say, one with an entirely reasonable Magic 5 and Counterspelling 4? Perhaps with a Counterspell focus (much cheaper than a Spellcasting focus)?
Suddenly, the mage has a very good chance of rolling his dice, taking his drain, and doing not a dang thing. Mages aren't common, but when there's one on both sides things are more likely to turn into a Lo Pan/Egg Shen staring contest than big balls of light flying in all directions.
This certainly doesn't make magicians worthless, but it's a check on their power. Some yahoo with a bag of grenades can do nearly as much damage, but do it more often, do it without damaging himself, and keep doing it even if someone on the other team has grenades.
| QUOTE (azathfeld) |
| Is there a mage on the other side? Say, one with an entirely reasonable Magic 5 and Counterspelling 4? Perhaps with a Counterspell focus (much cheaper than a Spellcasting focus)? |
What does the other magician's Magic rating have to do with anything?
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
What does the other magician's Magic rating have to do with anything? -Frank |
Nothing, actually, I was just mimicking the original post's structure too closely.
| QUOTE |
| 4) If your mage is casting at Force 10, then even mundanes will see it coming: The threshold to spot spellcasting is (6-Force), meaning anything over Force 5 is superobvious. The mage might get away with his big whammy once, but then you can bet he's going to be Target Number One for future return fire. Until someone else on the team does something more frightening, of course. |
Good points all around, although I still worry about the ability of mage to do this, especially when the lower drain code was pointed out. However, I think the quote above is my favorite thing to keep in mind. When every bullet in the next security teams guns has the mages name on it, that will teach them the joys of spells with low force ratings.
Plus, there is a certain amount of gentleman's agreement going on. After all, it cuts both ways. Sort of like in my old D&D games. Sure, go ahead and use the Harm spell all you want, your next encounter is against half a dozen evil 11th level clerics.
Or as I have said to many groups, Snipe unto the NPC's as they shall snipe unto you.
The balance of power doth swing like a pendulem do.
The balance of power doth swing like a pendulem do.
Buy the time your puling out the force 10 mana ball being observed buy remaining combatants; you’re on your way out, if you weren’t before you are now.
Any plan that calls for that kind of fire power on the way in is a bad plan.
Edward
Any plan that calls for that kind of fire power on the way in is a bad plan.
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 27 2006, 11:35 PM) |
| Buy the time your puling out the force 10 mana ball being observed buy remaining combatants; you’re on your way out, if you weren’t before you are now. Any plan that calls for that kind of fire power on the way in is a bad plan. |
Ed's got a point. In previous editions of Shadowrun that I've played, my Samurai characters usually carried grenades with them when hitting an objective. But they hardly ever used them... only when the shit hit the fan in a big way did he ever bother to pull them out, because he had to do anything and everything he could to ensure the survival of himself and his team.
Otherwise, heavy ordinance like that draws exactly the sort of attention that you don't want.
Now I think about it the mana ball could be useful on the way in, provided the hides the caster from observation of anybody not in the effect. They can’t identify you as the caster if there not seeing you at all. And no messy explosions.
example, take out the lobby guards before entering the building.
Probably better using stun ball however. Lower drain and stun tracks are shorter. If you really want them dead stab them in the throat with your combat knife after.
Not the best plan in the world but sometimes mercenary tactics are called for. And its only useful while the plan is going of perfectly (otherwise your probably going to be observed.
Edward
example, take out the lobby guards before entering the building.
Probably better using stun ball however. Lower drain and stun tracks are shorter. If you really want them dead stab them in the throat with your combat knife after.
Not the best plan in the world but sometimes mercenary tactics are called for. And its only useful while the plan is going of perfectly (otherwise your probably going to be observed.
Edward
How about the big bad astral signature left behind after the fire fight that is used to track him, because the employer of said goons is really pissed.
This is called Shadowrun, not Battlefield Earth. If your team wants to blow stuff up and make noise, simply have people notice and come looking for them.
This is called Shadowrun, not Battlefield Earth. If your team wants to blow stuff up and make noise, simply have people notice and come looking for them.
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| Probably better using stun ball however. Lower drain and stun tracks are shorter. If you really want them dead stab them in the throat with your combat knife after. |
Eeh…stun ball is right, knife to the throat is not. Remember, this is shadowrun. Rampant killings of security guards is a BAD thing.
They are not powerful and can die easily but sooner or later you will kill one of the guards that actually have a powerful friend. Like an up and coming CEO of a new corporation that has some powerful connections and perhaps even more powerful friends. Or what if a small association of slayed sec guards pop up after a few months and a large group of grieving sposes/widows decide to hire their own help to track you down.
Stun, shock, bludgeon them into unconciousness but please do AVOID bloodshed, it IS the sign of the amateur…unless of course you DO go up against professional security guards in armour SMG’s and the training to be an actual threat – just don’t kill Mr.Dougnutmuncher or Mr.Coffeedrinker.
In my second game, the mage of the group threw a Force 10 Stunball at a dozen go gangers who where chasing them on motorcyles. Wiped out the whole gang. 
And he took no damage from the drain. I am very worried.
And he took no damage from the drain. I am very worried.
What were his stats like? Willpower 7, Logic 6? Combat spell focus? Spirit helping out?
If he was a garden variety starting character I wouldn't worry too much - he probably just got lucky on the roll. Besides, an SR3 Stunball would do Deadly level damage with no drain every time.
If he was a garden variety starting character I wouldn't worry too much - he probably just got lucky on the roll. Besides, an SR3 Stunball would do Deadly level damage with no drain every time.
Magic 6
Spellcasting 6 (+2 Combat Spells)
Willpower 5
Logic 5
Mentor Spirit (+2 Combat Spells)
Combat Fetish (+2 to resist Drain)
First he casts the Increase Will spell and used an Sustaining Focus to keep it going. That increased his Will to 9.
So Casting the Force 10 Stun Ball (6+6+2+2 = 16 dice)
Resisting Drain of 6 (F/2+1) (9+5+2 = 16 dice)
Spellcasting 6 (+2 Combat Spells)
Willpower 5
Logic 5
Mentor Spirit (+2 Combat Spells)
Combat Fetish (+2 to resist Drain)
First he casts the Increase Will spell and used an Sustaining Focus to keep it going. That increased his Will to 9.
So Casting the Force 10 Stun Ball (6+6+2+2 = 16 dice)
Resisting Drain of 6 (F/2+1) (9+5+2 = 16 dice)
He spent over 1/2 of his build points (207 of them, barring any racial mods) on doing that trick, so he should be pretty good at it. On average he should have taken one point of drain (16 dice = 5 hits). It does mean he's going to be weaker in times when his magic isn't so helpful.
But always remember that last step of character creation: GM approval. If the character is too powerful for the tone of the campaign, tell the player to tone it back some.
But always remember that last step of character creation: GM approval. If the character is too powerful for the tone of the campaign, tell the player to tone it back some.
Minor Note for the GMs out there. Play the range game. A Force 10 mana ball has a 10 meter radius (20 meter diameter). Beside being obvious to everyone in site, everything within roughly 30 yards is getting baked (line of site and all that applies). Mana ball is a sphere - don't forget about those innocent victims nearby. it will help discourage rampant use of this sort of thing. (that's an 8 story building). Chances are that a few party members are within that range.
| QUOTE |
| He spent over 1/2 of his build points (207 of them, barring any racial mods) on doing that trick, so he should be pretty good at it. |
Yeah, but he's also pretty good at most other kinds of magic as well. Without knowing exactly what totem he took, I couldn't tell you the exact penalties; but based on what I see, I think he'd have 12 dice for general sorcery, and 14 dice for genera drain resistance. That's still a lot.
Also don't allow a mage without some sort of rangefinder technology (cybereyes most likely) to pick an exact spot for his balls. Make him worry about hitting friendlies sometimes. Heck, just having the group of bad guys up against a wall means the group has to be around 35 feet away to ensure none of the team members get caught in that 10m radius blast.
| QUOTE (GingerbreadMan) |
| Minor Note for the GMs out there. Play the range game. A Force 10 mana ball has a 10 meter radius (20 meter diameter). Beside being obvious to everyone in site, everything within roughly 30 yards is getting baked (line of site and all that applies). Mana ball is a sphere - don't forget about those innocent victims nearby. it will help discourage rampant use of this sort of thing. (that's an 8 story building). Chances are that a few party members are within that range. |
Actually, I don't think a manaball would have *any* visible effect. Since it's mana-based, it only affects living objects, which means non-living objects within the radius are unaffected. Since manaball/bolt spells channel magical energy from within the target, I've always played them as causing internal injuries -- the body exploding/imploding from within (ala Scanners). A group of mundane observers witnessing a Force 10 manaball would see the victims suddenly cry in pain as they collapsed, heads exploding, chests rupturing, etc. -- no fancy light show. Anyone else run it like that?
Sorry, I mean the casting is obvious, not the effect. (except the piles of dead bodies)
That would depend on your aspect of Magic. My hermetics vary rarely have any visual representation of spell casting other than line of site and maybe if I took a geas in 3rd vocalization. Shamanic bent mages usually are the ones that have a noticable casting. Ie shamanic mask, chanting dancing etc etc.
| QUOTE (GingerbreadMan) |
| Beside being obvious to everyone in site, everything within roughly 30 yards is getting baked |
Sorry, but this would be close to 22 yards, not 30 yards.
Those poor bastards in the air taxi could still be hit
.
It seems to me that the common problem with aoe damage spells is the 'aoe' part. Most of the time when I've played, either
If you're in close terrain (cube farm in office complex) often by the time you see the enemy, he's right up on you. Then you can't cast on him without including yourself in the blast radius. Nothing like having to resist both the effects of the spell and the drain code...
Finally, magic isn't as effective in my games in general because I've pretty much ruled that all urban areas have at least a point of background count, if not more. Add in visibility modifiers from smoke grenades and partial cover, disorientation from gas grenades, unrelated injuries, [sometimes]spell defense, wards, mana barriers, [occasional] spirits using confusion, etc. and it can get really hard to cast with any certainty of success.
- The opposition is too spread out, or
- you've got friendlies in the area of effect (often including yourself)
If you're in close terrain (cube farm in office complex) often by the time you see the enemy, he's right up on you. Then you can't cast on him without including yourself in the blast radius. Nothing like having to resist both the effects of the spell and the drain code...
Finally, magic isn't as effective in my games in general because I've pretty much ruled that all urban areas have at least a point of background count, if not more. Add in visibility modifiers from smoke grenades and partial cover, disorientation from gas grenades, unrelated injuries, [sometimes]spell defense, wards, mana barriers, [occasional] spirits using confusion, etc. and it can get really hard to cast with any certainty of success.
The area thing is something to definately take into consideration, at least it makes the force 10 manaball a bit more situational. I am still a little concerned about the force 10 indivdual spells (manabolt, powerbolt, etc.) There are some pretty good reasons to hold off on these spells generally, but I worry about them trivializing the big scary opposition. I'm a little worried about the big impressive baddy getting one-shotted by the mage squeezing off one net hit on his casting roll. Even if the baddy's defenses are good, getting one success is still very doable, moreover, increasing his ability to withstand spells to a crazy level stops more "legitimate" uses of spells, which I certainly don't want to discourage.
More and more I worry that I may need to institute some sort of house rule concerning drain or drain whilst overcasting. Any ideas? I think the goal should be to keep spellcasting good but risky in general (the lack of drain in the game's I have been in has made me a little sad) and overcasting should be a hellaciously dangerous "OMFG I'm going to die if I don't do this" sort of thing. Basically I want a feel like in the fluff piece at the beginning of the magic chapter. The mage is pretty sure that overcasting won't kill her and needs the troll dead right fucking now! At the end the spell goes off, the troll dies, and the mage blacks out from godawful pain. That's what overcasting should be to me.
More and more I worry that I may need to institute some sort of house rule concerning drain or drain whilst overcasting. Any ideas? I think the goal should be to keep spellcasting good but risky in general (the lack of drain in the game's I have been in has made me a little sad) and overcasting should be a hellaciously dangerous "OMFG I'm going to die if I don't do this" sort of thing. Basically I want a feel like in the fluff piece at the beginning of the magic chapter. The mage is pretty sure that overcasting won't kill her and needs the troll dead right fucking now! At the end the spell goes off, the troll dies, and the mage blacks out from godawful pain. That's what overcasting should be to me.
There's lots of threads on this forum, and suggestions in the BBB for making magic less uber in general. In my mind, the most easily applied choices are:
That said, this is a controversial topic that nobody really agrees about on these forums.
- change the drain values to equal Force + x, instead of (Force/2) + x, or
- treat background count as increasing threshhold by that amount.
That said, this is a controversial topic that nobody really agrees about on these forums.
Maybe if you change the drain code when a mage overcasts to the Force+X instead of (Force/2)+X
| QUOTE (Magus) |
| That would depend on your aspect of Magic. My hermetics vary rarely have any visual representation of spell casting other than line of site and maybe if I took a geas in 3rd vocalization. Shamanic bent mages usually are the ones that have a noticable casting. Ie shamanic mask, chanting dancing etc etc. |
Actually, Magus, it doesn't matter whether they're shamanic or hermetic anymore, with respect to noticing magic. See the top of the second column on page 168:
| QUOTE ("SR4 p. 168 under Noticing Magic") |
| Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice). |
Granted, it's still easier to see shaman's based on the +2 for the shamanic mask, but you can notice hermetic spellcasting with a Perception test, too.
@Waltermandias
Also, don't forget the easy house rule that drain cannot be healed (as in the spell). The RAW allow a mage to overcast a spell and then have another mage (or the same one) heal the drain away. By saying drain damage cannot be healed, while making a little extra bookkeeping for the players, makes overcasting a bit more dangerous since any drain that does occur takes on the order of days to heal rather than seconds.
Also, don't forget the easy house rule that drain cannot be healed (as in the spell). The RAW allow a mage to overcast a spell and then have another mage (or the same one) heal the drain away. By saying drain damage cannot be healed, while making a little extra bookkeeping for the players, makes overcasting a bit more dangerous since any drain that does occur takes on the order of days to heal rather than seconds.
Fair enough Apathy, and we will probably just go with the higher drain values and see how that goes. We do loves us the house rules.
Oh, and as a side note, your sig is my new quote of the day.
Oh, and as a side note, your sig is my new quote of the day.
Last night my players came to realise how truly overpowered magic can be, as their mage dropped more people and faster than the min maxed street samurai ever could, and as an enemy mage gave back unto them in kind. Everyone overcasting left right and center, with no drain as a consequence.
We will definately be increasing the drain code of magic to F+x in future.
For you to effect anything in your AOE, you have to see it first, so the people behind you (or that you otherwise can't see) will not get effected by your spell, even if it is in the AOE.
Which leads to a rather odd bit, if your cyber eys have been hacked to GITS invisibility, you can't hit them with spells (using normal vision) either. Of course you could just astrally percieve (which can't be hacked) and lay the target to waste that way.
Which leads to a rather odd bit, if your cyber eys have been hacked to GITS invisibility, you can't hit them with spells (using normal vision) either. Of course you could just astrally percieve (which can't be hacked) and lay the target to waste that way.
I am curious what the idea is behind the AOEs being bound by LOS rules.
I would think that only the point of impact would be of import to the caster, not the secondary effects.
Though I would hate to be on the receiving end of a 10F manaball I don't see why its bound so. It just seems to take away some of the realism of a AOE to me.
I would think that only the point of impact would be of import to the caster, not the secondary effects.
Though I would hate to be on the receiving end of a 10F manaball I don't see why its bound so. It just seems to take away some of the realism of a AOE to me.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| For you to effect anything in your AOE, you have to see it first, so the people behind you (or that you otherwise can't see) will not get effected by your spell, even if it is in the AOE. |
True, but how often is the mage in front of the rest of the team?
Deadjester: except for ritual sorcery and elemental manipulations that create soemthing, all magis in SR requires you to see the targets. That can work out to the nonmages' advantages though, as it means visibility modifiers come into play, lessening the power of magic somewhat.
| QUOTE (Deadjester) |
| I am curious what the idea is behind the AOEs being bound by LOS rules. |
There's some debate over whether indirect AOEs should bleed out beyond LOS. Direct AOEs operating under LOS are OK with me. I'm hoping for a SR4 FAQ ASAP.
Presently in our game, only site of impact is of import to our caster, and the AOE acts as any tech device would.
Which makes it more important and dangrous in how we use it. To use mana/stun/etc, or to not use a AOE at all when innocents are around.
We are pretty mean in a fight but we spend all our time trying to avoid one and trying to pull of runs where they never know it happend.
Last sunday we had to get hired on at a cleaning agency and actually do some real work so that we could insert some data in a company. It was funny as hell to watch our Technomancer do some actual work be for he could get to the objective.
Which makes it more important and dangrous in how we use it. To use mana/stun/etc, or to not use a AOE at all when innocents are around.
We are pretty mean in a fight but we spend all our time trying to avoid one and trying to pull of runs where they never know it happend.
Last sunday we had to get hired on at a cleaning agency and actually do some real work so that we could insert some data in a company. It was funny as hell to watch our Technomancer do some actual work be for he could get to the objective.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.