Out of all the stuff in Cannon Companion, the thing our group enjoyed most, and used the most, was the wide variety of special clothing/armor available. I hope that they offer us more flavour in armored/special clothing than "This is a bulletproof jacket, and this over here is a fancy bulletproof suit."

How about 2 weapon rules? I'd like to see melee combat a bit stronger and more detailed.

Some sort of "capacity" or other suggested limitation to the amount of resistance mods you can build into armor would be nice.

There is one. It's called the balance on your credstick.

Credstick balance is one thing. Houseruling a limit is another. Having some sort of idea dropped into the book is a third, and I think could be done with about 3 lines of space

Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't *add* to Availability, like vision modifiers did for goggles/glass/etc.

Why *not* get Chemical/Fire/Electrical resistance (6) on every armor that you can afford it on?

I'd rather see them be Availability based, to keep it under control.

I always liked the martial art rules. Hope they bring those back.

If you just buy special stuff like spells, sure.

I DEMAND more automatic shotguns. And under-barrel mounted shotguns. I've been using the info for the XM30 under-barrel, but I want an official one. Many, actually. Armor. Because my characters like to get as good as they give, and daggum it, If they're running around with a Pancor-frickin-Jackahammer, then they're gonna need it. Monomol shardblasters. INTERESTING weapons. The kind that make you go "oh, neeto!" Not to say that the current weapons aren't fun, and that the ones in CC were a sleep aid, but the kind of tech that's in Augmented has set the bar pretty high in what technology can do in 2070.

Tools. Oh god how I want tools. I'm tired of having to make up stats for a drill with diamond-tipped drill bits and a dremel attachment, laser cutters, and glass cutters! Tools and general gear is something that the game is in desperate need of.

Give the riggers their testicles back. Sweeping them into a corner wasn't cool. The fact that my combat hacker/action-hero has become a worthwhile rigger just because he bought a few drones and upped his Command program makes me feel kinda sad.

On that topic: more drones, more vehicles, more crap we can do with/stick on/to them. Yeah, we can use different names, but in the end a van is a van, and a flying bug is a flying bug.

More anthroform everything would be awesome. And biomimetic stuff. I mean, we DO have bioware, so biomimetic armor, smart suits, et cetera wouldn't be amiss.

Bring back the weapon-creation rules, in one form or another (and at least make it easy for us to create vehicles on our own). I actually didn't find them to bad, and I felt that, while it WAS overly complicated, it was worth it. And this is coming from someone who fled the room weeping when my friend showed me his copy of Rigger 3, and still gets nausea whenever he remembers the legality codes from 3rd Ed.

I'd love to see the signature weapon rule come back, and maybe something between signature weapons and specialty within a weapon group. Actually, just about all of the advanced rules in CC were on the mark. And yes, I second Martial Arts making a comeback.

Hard rules for a nanoforge. Because while I doubt my GM would ever let me get my hands on one, I still would like to see it.

I'd also like there to be roughly 80-90% less fluff than there was in Augmentation. It's not that I think that there's to much fluff in Aug, because I think it helped set the tone for 2070 and beyond quite nicely. It's just that there's way, WAY to much crap that we all want to allow for anything else. Cyberware and bioware were pretty well represented in the BBB, and it's not like we could all afford most of the good stuff. But I'm pretty sure that we've all used most of the crap BEFORE the Cyberware section, and after it. I mean, how many names can you give to a Predator? What's in a name? A Pred by other name would still do 4P...

Oh, and bring back the Americar. Just because I love saying the name. "The Americar!"

I'm going to vote against weapon/vehicle creation rules. As a GM, there's little more boring or tedious than auditing a player's ubergun/ubercar.

I'd rather stick with simpler weapon/vehicle modifications. As a suggestion, provide vehicle stat modification packages in a number of levels (low/medium/high) and qualities (inferior/typical/superior). Allow only one of these modification packages per vehicle, and make these the only stat modifiers.

I.e.
Improved Vehicle Armor
Low/Inferior: +1 Armor, -1 Handling, -30% top speed, -30% acceleration, 500
Low/Typical: +1 Armor, -10% top speed, -10% acceleration, medium cost, 2000
Low/Superior: +1 Armor, high cost, 5000

Medium/Inferior: +1 Armor, -1 Handling, -50% top speed, -50% acceleration, 800

Low quality mods represent shoddy work, like just slapping on some extra metal for armor. Typical quality represents typical shop work -- using higher quality armor material, improving the suspension, and juicing up the engine a little. Superior work represents the best of the best -- very good materials, better suspension, maybe a supercharger.

The developers/authors can certainly balance and playtest specific numbers better than I can, so take those as only a suggestion. The upside of this is that stat modifications (armor, handling, acceleration, and speed) are simple to select and double check. Additionally, nobody needs to note how modifications interact and there's no chance of anybody creating a Handling 15 supersonic motorcycle.

I'd leave roll cages, winches, turrets, smoke dispensers, etc... as a la carte options, since they're nowhere near as prone to abuse.

Also, a second vote for the Coveralls, I loved those!

…I believe there does need to be some type of framework to allow GMs to expand on the standard vehicle list. Many of the vehicles that I developed in SRIII were just to offer a few more options and add more depth and variety to the setting. Possibly making these rules as a GM’s only option (similar to the section on building NPCs in the Core Rules). Basically all it needs to do is provide the basic parameters for vehicle design under the SR4 ruleset similar to the design tables in the appendix of Rigger 3.

The same could be applied to weapons.

One of the things from the Cannon Companion that my group got a lot of use out of (other then the tech toys), was the rules on martial arts. Were they a bit wonky...yes. But those rules did bring a little extra flavor to the game. Only two of my players in my large game started with martial arts but they quickly started teaching the others and loved facing off against others with training in them as well.

Yes, another vote for martial arts. I really didn't like the system in CC, the maneuvers just weren't practical. But some kind of rules is a must, there needs to be a difference between brawling and kung fu.

Manuevers were plenty practical -- three or four of them, at any rate. That was the real problem. It wasn't that they all sucked, it was that most of them sucked and a few were must-haves (and not every martial art had access to those golden few). It was also pretty stupid that martial arts didn't...stack, for lack of a better word.

In real life, people that cross train will, almost as a rule, kick the ass of someone who focuses solely on a single art. Most arts (not all, mind you, but the vast majority) are missing something. They don't focus on grappling much, they're lacking at ground fighting, they're weaker on punches, or whatever. So people train in (as a for instance) Kali to learn how to kill you with a knife, Western Boxing for the punches, and then Jujitsu for some ground game. There you go; a well rounded fighter.

In-game, though, he'd end up with a much shittier character sheet than someone that invested all the same karma or skill points into just one martial art. Kali 2, Edged Weapons 2, Brawling 2, and Aikido (or whatever "soft" art they used in CC) 2 does not a competent combatant make (especially given the opposed rolls nature of the system).

It would have been much better to give a core "Unarmed Combat" skill, and then say a martial art costs 2 karma (or something), but that learning a martial art then applied the appropriate advantages and disads to your Unarmed Combat skill, and opened the door to purchasing appropriate manuvers. Something like that would be quite a bit more realistic, where "a little of this, a little of that, and a little experience" really does make you a very competent fighter.

I certainly don't want to see the CC martial arts come back, but I'd love to see some official clarification of how certain specializations (like "martial arts") are supposed to work.

I am sooooo glad that this thread has finally turned from three pages of CarTalk to a deep and whole-hearted desire for SR4 martial arts rules.

Please put me down as yet another in a string of pleas that martial arts rules be included in Arsenal. And a passle of other FoF-style combat options would also add tons of flavor to combat.

I also heartily agree with the last few posters that while the CC rules were great fun and much better than nothing - some of the maneuvers really didn't seem to have been playtested. Lots of them were actually disadvantageous to use in any circumstance.
And the stacking thing noted by Critias was also a key flaw.

I always suspected that the maneuvers sucked and stacking wasn't allowed as a sort of game balance thing - but what for? That's why it all costs precious Karma. If a character is willing to bear the opportunity cost and spend the points, why not let them get better at unarmed fighting? Isn't that one of the staples of the badass Shadowrunner mystique?
I'd happily pay more than the previous 2 points per maneuver if the maneuver was actually useful (though as Critias pointed out, some were, just not all or even most).

I was kind of hoping that Martial arts were handled as an add to the unarmed skill (leave it generic please, higher rating means more styles mastered). I'd quiet like to see maneuvers available for more skills, like Using Pistols in Melee, or being good at quickdrawing. Place on how many you can get based on the skills rating and add that Rating 7 removes any limit and we're good to go. I'd of written this all myself but ideas for tricks were short...

I love these suggestions for martial arts.

I humbly suggest that, though, that these additions, having everything to do with training and little to do with weapons, do not belong in Arsenal. I think the runner companion would be a great place for them.

That would give me enough time to flesh them out a bit and submit them.

Real power players use their Math Fu to beat up their opponents.

Just happen to be reading through Runners Havens while patiently waiting for some new books to come out as hardcopy..ahem..

Came across mention of Ares testing armored exoskeletons in Hong Kong, gonna see these in Arsenal?

they're gonna have anthroform drones. we know this (they promised in augmentation ). it should take little-to-no effort to convert an anthroform drone to a vehicle that you can pilot. (in fact, i would expect that to be one of the vehicle modification rules in arsenal).

an anthroform vehicle that you can sit in is not significantly different from power armor, game mechanically speaking =P therefore, you can just declare your anthroform vehicle to actually be power armor, and not unbalance anything, because you only need to change fluff

I want to see rules for giant Sock'em Bop'em robots. Maybe an exaggerated and impossible laser sword too. Maybe an improved Control Rig that lets you see the future. So great. And they must be able to break dance fight. Always a must.

Seriously though, biped vehicles would be interesting... but none of this Gundam wing crap. Think Starseige. I'd settle for just those freight movers out of Alien even.
Yes, dual wielding for melee is an absolute must, something that gives those fighting styles flavor and moderate advantage/disadvantage. And, yes, martial arts "maneuvers" need a come back, but in a vastly revamped form. They shouldn't just apply to unarmed attempts... though unarmed skill should likely factor into it.

I for one am totally against all kinds of power armour/mecha-shit. Just...silly. Why would you put someone in a walking tank, when you can remote control that tank, that way you don't need space for the pilot nor do you have to worry about the trained pilot blowing up with the walking tank. Mechas in my opinion are just stupid.

[Aristotle: edited to remove political statement.]

President Shrub aside, there is something to be said for having a pilot that can't be jammed, hacked, or assumed to go crazy from being nothing more then a brain in a jar.


Of course I'm not going to defend Mechs as being reasonable, but they are cool, provided you leave the Anime "transforming and laser swords" out of the equation.

"Cool" doesn't automatically mean it has to be in Shadowrun.

Amen!

if technology makes it possible, I really see a market for them. Just imagine the arena fight you could stage with those things:D Audience will get more attached if there are actual people fighting instead of 'just' drones.
And just because it is produced, doesn't mean it will make it's way into the shadows(except for some whackos) or con security.

I'm in no way advocating a "mecha" style device in SR. Large four legged drones as a envelope maximum. But a man sized suit of military or similar grade armor with stat enhancements and add ons is'nt too far fetched. One of concept prototypes for the pentagons recent future soldier upgrades was body suit with increased str.


Think core SR audience is against turning game into gundam, made very clear by its creative sarcasm

I would like to see something like a sand grenade. It doesn't do damage, but releases enough small particles into the air to make ultrasound vision worthless.

yeah, but augmentation gave us chihuahua grenades.

"Aw, look at the cute puppy!"
BOOM!

Mecha and power armor are two different things all together. Power armor... as a reusable alternative to heavy cyber... is very plausible and useful. Not to mention, you put vehicle grade armor on infantry with equal (or better) mobility and versatility compared normal infantry and you've just revolutionized supra-modern warfare. Insurgent threats become far less threatening at that point.

Drones are not the beat all end all to wars. Mass numbers of drones don't have the critical thinking that humans do, even if directed by a rigger or five. Plus many drones are more fragile (seen the stats?) than a toughened grunt with security armor (or even light armor like a long coat). The drones that aren't fragile, like tank drones, are prone to hackers spoofing commands, and are not as mobile, versatile, or effective damage control as infantry. While hackers could still mess with rigger adapted vehicles (I wouldn't even handle power armor like a vehicle really) the human pilots (and possibly co-pilots) could counter such tampering with kill switches and manual overrides, something a drone could not effectively have. Not to mention high power sets of four directional jammers or area jammers would utterly destroy the effectiveness of drones.

...NERPS

once again, just to clear this up:

i understand that in real life, jamming signals works. in shadowrun, it doesn't work unless you're doing it to someone who doesn't expect you to do it (hint: military organisations should be expecting the other side to jam everything they can).

certainly, jamming equipment is to cheap to not have handy, just in case the other side isn't prepared for it... but against someone who is ready for it (again, referring to SR4 and not real life), your signal jamming isn't going to do anything. you may as well try and hold back niagra falls with your bare hands.

Very few drones AND riggers will have even Signal 5/6 and ECCM 5/6 even in the military. Which is what is required to beat those directional jammers. You might not be able to jam the best, but even with a decent (rather than maxed) directional jammer, a military is going to go with flesh pilots in all but scouting missions.
Again, theres the wee problem of hackers and drones. Humans don't have those problems, even less so if you have those manual overrides and kill switches.

I wonder if there will be a Cornershot weapon, I hope so.

http://www.cornershot.com/

Shooting from behind cover without risking your precious meatbag..or at least, the meat that hasn't been chromed yet. Also good for peeking around the corner into the female showers.

That still leaves your hands and the fingers free to be shot at and lost.

Well one thing holding cyber back these days is the higher essence costs. What if, and I'm just saying what if, "power armour" is nothing but an external attachment to implanted cyberware.

Augmentation had Cyberware suites meant for the salarymen and such, and while there's a raging debate about Human Wave tactics vs Advanced Professionals it's fair to assume that there'd be a more widespread application of cyberware for those on the frontline. Cheap, reliable, durable, and not to mention efficient - they're perfect for combat.

Anyway, the idea is to have a set of implants necessary for powered armour to be of substantial benefit beyond the Full Body Armour. They'd be pieces of a suit of armour that links with cyberware already inside the person. You'd essentially "grow" into the power armour suit as you put it on.

Bone lacing for easier stress tolerances for the suit, various headware for processing and such, cybereyes and ears would almost be mandatory.

In other words: Add-ons, apply directly to the chrome.

makes me think of the edgerunners in cpv3...