If I understand it correctly, the hacker was turned down, and framed the face? And the team, who was ready to kill someone they believed was a traitor, let the hacker, who betrayed a team member of theirs and used the rest of his team as tools, and for egoistical and petty reasons, get off scot-free? And they still work with the hacker? In the hope that he'll never get mad at them for not getting the last slice of pizza? And they trust him to deal fair with them?

I can only say that team is made up of the most stupid runners I have heard of in a while.

PSYCHO!!!!

I liked Beta, it is rare when there is a personal chemistry between characters that was quite apparent from the beginning. Vera was still without compassion and morality, but more along the lines of someone who sees and uses beauty as a weapon. I think in many ways Beta was really the mirror mask of Vera. Vera saw human interaction like a web and she a spider atop of it. I spent a good time watching Dexter, and several serial killer articles and movies as a way of fleshing her out as a character.

Unfortunately the level of depth needed for characters such as Vera are often wasted on games which lurch to a start and shudder to an end.

The team was pissed of at the face because they belived she had robbed them, but they didn't kill her because they weren't realy intentioned to kill her just beat her HARD, the hacker suggested that she had to refund the moral damage in flesh so the beating became a rape. The team members had alot of runs together so the betrial of the face had wounded them deeply, they regretted what they had done just an hour later and did try to contact her (they did look like idiots), but she had already sliced hers wrist's veins.
When they got the job they tried to have her work with them, hoping to repair some of the harm done (and to score higher pay), however she didn't respond to any call, they called the fixer to know if he knew anything but he hadn't heard from her since the last run, so they sent the samurai to see what she was doing; in the meanwhile the ghost of the face had been evasdropping the team plotting for vengeance , the shaman sensed a presence and assensed the astral around them, spotting briefly the ghost that was "running" away, when he informed the rest of the team the hacker felt awfully and closed himself in the toilet, until the team asked him to get out because they had something that they had to talk about. When the samurai that had gone to look for the face asked him for explainations the hacker nerves broke down and he started telling the most patetic story that I had ever heard about how he loved the face but wasn't loved and came to want her to feel his pain and that kind of dreck.
The team had seriously considered the option of killing him, but they had already lost one member and were quite nauseated by the whole story and they didn't want to see any other dead team member so they chose to let him live, after all he arranged the fact but they all committed it; the bond among team members was gone so they chose for splitting up and going on with their lives everyone own his own, however (under GM's tip) they chose to pull of one last run to pay the face burial (it was too late for harvesting the organs anyway).
In meanwhile the face had obtained enough data on the upcoming run and procided to deliver them to the head of the security of the facility that was about to be hit, so they were ready in ambush; she also paid a visit to all hers contact telling them what the team had done to her (including some torture to add some spice to the story) and asking for helping her to have justice so that she could rest in peace. The only member to survive the run was a troll samurai and he had way to learn how fareaching the wrath of the face was.
All in all it didn't end that bad, after the rape the whole story had turned sour so we had already chosen to make the story to come to its closure, we just did it with a bang; anyway both the troll and the face returned later as NPCs, the face had become a free spirit while the troll has survived all the attempts to his life made by bounty hunters and quit the shadows when he found a group of people who give him the notion of belonging, he was changed from when he was a PC, he was educated, brilliant, easygoing and dual natured.

P.S. The PC trusted the hacker because he was going to stretch his neck out like all the other and because the distribution of the payment was going to be done under the fixer supervision.

Isn't that always the truth. I once had a character concept - a sociopathic, ex-corp engineer, with a really good grasp on explosives, infiltration, and etiquette. He was supposed to end up becoming a sociopathic terrorist, but the game ended prematurely. He also had exploding arms. It was pretty good stuff.

I run the line that, as a matter of making the social characters not be the defacto leaders of my groups, that social skills cannot be used on PCs except under very specific circumstances (normally where the character is not in control of themselves; i.e., they're berserking, they're under the effects of a spell or drugs, etc.).
Any interaction with the group is roleplayed, with the understanding that, even if they don't really want to, EVERYONE likes the face. Since, you know, Charisma 6 and all that.

But then again I grant a more positive disposition to neutral PCs based on good roleplaying or, in some cases, a really high charisma.

But this may only work because most of my guys are the, "WHEN DO WE GET TO THE GUNSSSS!??!111" variety.

The question here is how high the highest possible DP would be if we used only modifiers available in present-day, non-awakened societies.
That would be the most charismatic person imaginable in our world and one could roughly extrapolate from that point.

The problem here is that adept powers, tailored pheromones and other bioware can make up such a huge chunk of a pornomancer's DP that in the case of 50+ dice, we are still most likely faced with someone who is about twice as convincing as the most charismatic person any of us could imagine.

I'm like that IRL; not because I can't lie convincingly, but because I made a decision back in high school (I'm going on 22) and haven't told an intentional lie since. It's the path that seems most right for me. I don't blame other people for "greasing the wheels" with others, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone and they don't lie to me. I just don't do it myself.

You also have to realize that Con is resisted with Intuition + Willpower.*

Most people today have almost none of either (common sense is a 10 BP quality for a reason: no one has the intuition that it represents and no one has the willpower to do anything in moderation: binge eating, binge drinking, binge smoking, binge sex, and binge wife beating, not to mention binge buying and binge suicide).

*It should be noted that if a "pornomancer" face who's stealing from the party is caught that if he lies about "I'll never do it again" that's not Negotiation vs. Negotiation (group roll), that's Con vs. Judge Intent (individually), and the pornomancer, even without his cyber/bio/magical bonuses and at a -8 penalty will still likely have more dice than each individual he needs to convince.

That's just it though -- if we set Charisma 6 as 'the most Charismatic person on the planet today', than consider a '6' in the skill to be someone who has refined that talent to a keen edge, what's someone with Charisma 11 like? Or gods forbid, someone pushing into 16 or so? We have no way of comparing it, except to perhaps look at some character on television or movies who have 'scripted' Charisma.

The closest I can think of was the old 'Mummy' game from White Wolf. As their social attributes got higher and higher, they pulled off superhuman effects. I'd not quite have it go that far, but I would say someone pushing over the 6 mark is 'super human' when it comes to persuasiveness.

Charisma 11 is CLEARLY Santa Clause. I mean seriously, who doesn't like that guy?

Actually 7 Charisma and 7 skill are the highest possible without magic/cyber/bio/future tech. Figure a specialty and your looking at 16 dice. So x3 as much in the umber porno from hell. Of course, it is really only useful if you let them talk. Smashing them in the teeth with a shotgun butt when they open their mouth works well to stop that and even if they win initiative, they don't have time in a fraction of a second to effectively use a social skill.

Think about it, how much can you say in a second (how long that guy with 3IP will take in his attack) while someone is trying to bash your head in? Hell, how much social talk can you do in a second without someone trying to beat the crap out of you. Using a social skill requires time. You can't use them if the other guy is not giving you time, no matter how huge your dice pool is.

Sounds like "geek the mage first" has become "smash the face first".

Actually no, I just don't allow social skills to be used in combat except for physical intimidation since they require much more time to be used then most combats last. If it is going to take you a minute or two (and that's being nice) to sweet talk someone, it is kind of hard to pull off in the 6~9 seconds tops that most combats last. Specially with all the distractions from... say... bullets... and things like... explosions... and I don't know, maybe a few... lightning bolts... all happening while your trying to talk.

Ever been to a gun range? Their crazy loud. You know why SWAT teams use weapons with sound suppressors on them? Its so they won't all be deaf after the first shot is fired, not to help them sneak around. A suppressed weapon is still very loud. Kinda like slamming a really big heavy dictionary down onto a desk.

I allow physical intimidation to be used because Bubba the Love Troll can kick a desk 30' while dramatically cocking his assault cannon and screaming "Your all my bitches now!" in a combat round.

AllTheNothing, remind me to never play with be anywhere near your group.

Not quite. I would have NPCs react, and describe the character's actions to others, based on the character's stats. I wouldn't restrict the player to their RL social skill level. I'm just saying that 1) The roleplaying aspect bogs down when you roll dice for every social interaction, and 2) I prefer not to allow social skills to let one player bigfoot another player's character.


That falls more under the category of "fates worse than death" that can await characters in Shadowrun, like turning into a ghoul, being pyschotropically conditioned, etc. If you are prepared to eat up a lot of game play in unpleasant things like that, though, be sure that your players want to go there. A lot of players would probably rather just roll up a new character.


Both situations could lead to great roleplaying if they occurred naturally during the game. But if someone has a core concept as part of the character, part of why they want to play that character, then you will absolutely NOT get good roleplaying by rolling the dice and telling them what their character does. You will instead get a player who feels that his character has been "ruined", who will roleplay a lot less and metagame a lot more.

A lot of people might bring up realism, saying "Well, such-and-such happens". But that doesn't matter when "realism" gets in the way of verisimilitude. In a roleplaying game, the main point of realism is to help immerse the players in the game - when it hinders it, instead, then it's not very useful.

I would love it if my not-before-marriage hacker was seduced. Imagine roleplaying that crushing dissapointment, and possibly the reckless abandon that starts when he/she realises they're never going to be pure again.

That's why you ask your players before pulling some stuff - and always leave the players multiple options for their characters. I have a few basic rules for social interactions on the level of the pornomancer - I liken them to results of the "Charm Person" spell from D&D.

Rule number 1: Just because that Succubus is your new best friend/love interest doesn't mean you stop being friends with the rest of your group. Just act as if the Succubus were a party member, and in a fight with other party members. How did your character react the last time the paladin and the thief clashed?

Rule number 2: Your character doesn't become a brainless tool that does what he is told to by the charmer. You can still think, you still know what you know. You do not suddenly believe your new love that it'll be allright to shoot your father. You may believe your new friend when she tells you that your father wants you killed - but you may also just believe that she honestly believes that, not that it is true.

Rule number 3: Your character's basic character doesn't change just because you've got the love of your life in a second. Your character doesn't suddenly turn into an obedient follower of your new love. He still is a macho warrior, and may still believe that women should stay at home - in fact, what is your true love doing on the battlefield? Get her to safety, no matter what the stupid woman says! It's for her own good. And your paladin won't suddenly kill orphans just because his love says so - in fact, seeing as your paladin killed his own brother when the latter fell to evil and attacked, it may be an incredible tragedy, but even love must take a backseat to what's right and just.

Run that way, any changes are up to the player of the character, and therefore done by consent. In fact, I had a PC charmed for weeks during a D&D campaign, by an Erinnyes, and it was a lot of fun seeing how the fiend tried to use the PC to get to her goal, since it was not a "do as your told" plot.

For the pornomancer I'd use the same approach, leaving it up to the targetted player how much of a change is caused by social skills. Same for NPCs - the Corporate CEO doesn't become a weak-willed lamb just because of a 5 minute talk, it'd take weeks of working on him to turn him into a puppet, if that ever works with his intelligence, ego and own social skills.

I could live with that - and there's nothing wrong with roleplaying someone being influenced by other PCs or NPCs. One of my characters in a game of magic-hunters, Null, was basically lost without someone telling him what to do. Even some of my faces are susceptible to manipulation of their insecurities. And Haywire's interaction with a social adept in the Jamaica in the Shadows thread was very interesting. And that's how I like social skills being handled, too - use them to influence how things are described to the player, but leave the final choice up to the player.

Of course, it also means creativity by the player gets used. There's a lot you can do, if you push the right buttons. Even with a not so adept player that sort of game can be played - in such a case, I'd probably let the player roll a test, then explain different options based on the roll, and see what he/she wants to do.

"Do you want to appeal to the knight's code of chivalry by playing the helpless innocent pursued by some evil mage so the knight will try to kill the mage, or rather make him believe that the mage trying to catch you was duped into it, so the knight will hide you to avoid a senseless confrontation?"

Even without magic and tech, modifiers are almost as important as the baseline DP.
CHA 6, skill 6, specialization, First Impression, Fame (Global) and Trustworthy makes for 23 dice for the socially most impressive unaugmented mundane possible within the SR4 rules.
Of course, the pornomancer still goes to town with about twice of that amount- still rolling about as many dice under the most adverse conditions as the mundane superstar under the most favorable ones.


Of course, i fully agree that such tests should take much more time than a single round of combat.
However, strictly by RAW, social skill tests are not described as extended tests (i don't agree with this notion in many cases, but that's how it is written).

My group disintegrated, they graduated at university and moved to other cities.

If everyone in the group has fun then they're doing it right.

The pornomancer will get out of that situation with the skin intact only if the other character want to listen, if they don't resultes an opposed test with the face rolling Charisma + Con and the other characters Agility + Pistols, social interaction has its limits.

Exactly, a social roll is only allowed when the other party is letting you be social with them. If their busy shooting while your talking, then your pretty much screwed.

I thought that's what commanding voice and leadership are for?

Only in D&D.

If someone is taking potshots at you I doubt you are going to care if you are up against Anthony Robbins.

If commanding voice can do that much, security guards will simply wear ear protection or cyberears, set so they block sounds, only letting "safe" electronic copies of the sounds through, effectively rendering the spoken words into matrix conversations.

Matrix conversation is the best protection against pornomancers anyway.

On the other hand, even the limits imposed by language skills are not much of a hindrance, as they cap the skill, not the bonus dice.

Well, it depends. I guess a (not too psychotic) male will have more trouble shooting a cute girl than an ugly guy. He might decide he could knock her out or capture her rather than kill her. Of course if she's shooting at him too, all bets are off.

Yeah, but if my cyberears are set on "filter out all voices, translate them into matrix communication, and transmit them that way to me" then commanding voice is kind out of luck.

But then all it takes is a white noise generator to make guards deaf.

What a great idea, now lets put a mage mask on every guard (they come with built in a white noice generator); on a more serious tone white noice would just impose a penality equal to its rating.

How so? Does a white noise generator render cyberears deaf in normal mode?

A white noise generator render microphones deaf. The idea is that there's a noise that the microphone itself isn't able to cancel out the way our metahuman ears do naturally (a nice feature they've got there). That's why you can still speak without hearing more than a simple background hiss while a microphone will be flooded with noise. I guess cyberears in normal mode will be able to cancel it out too, using the brain functions, but I doubt you can do the same if they record the sound without the control of your brain before sending it to you.

So, the opponent 'has to listen' for social combat to work? Then the idea of trying to screw with people or talk through a firefight (which is part and parcel with a number of comic books, movies, TV series, etc) isn't going to happen in Shadowrun?

I think that's vastly overestimating WN generators.

In my campaign world I tend to use pink noise generators. The reason is 'White Noise' causes anxiety in people RL, 'Pink Noise' doesn't, and helps people relax. Otherwise they work the same way.

ShadowRun needs more Dogs in the Vineyard.

If you'd like to see how a good social conflict system works, check out this demo of the Duel of Wits system that the guys from the Podgecast did.

Also, I wrote up a social conflict system a while ago. Never got to playtest it much, but you could always try it out.

EDIT: Changed that first link to the blog post, rather than directly to the video.

Commanding Voice and Enthralling Performance. Start out simply commanding them to Wait. It is a simple, one word command that effectively gives you an extra combat turn in which to act. You then launch into an entertaining persuasive rant using Enthralling Performance to prevent the enemies from acting against you during the speech, while making full use of your social abilities against them.

It's fun, and silly, and it works.

*Blam!*

So much for that... I hate pornos...

(Edit: See post below)
I
V

Enthralling Performance mesmerizes to the point of interfering with Perception Tests, but not to the point of immobilizing or incapacitating. Still, it might work.

Precisely.

-Chrysalis

If you want to model social tests affecting combat, there are some pretty straightforward mechanics you can use that follow the same pattern already laid out in the game.

The social character uses the social skills test as their skill in the combat opposed test, treat the social skill test similar to an Active Dodge.

"Might be one of my guys I'm shooting..."
Charisma + Etiquette Versus Agility + Pistols

"Oh look out behind you"
Charisma + Con

"You don't want to mess with me."
Charisma + Intimidation

It's not just for combat, but you can also look at ways to add social skill tests as part of Teamwork tests to help teammates, or look at the teamwork rules for applying negative modifiers to opposition skill tests.

Mechanically all the pieces are there, just substitute social skills/attributes where needed.

Never going to go with that. That would make the Pornomacer unhurtable.