Yeah, because you have all of 1 less mod slot and 2 or so less 'natural' recoil. It's recoil is just soooooo much worse than an AR.

You do know how scopes and cybereyes with vision magnification work, do you? For a Free Action you remove the Range Penalty until the target moves. So both can have -0 at 550m.

You also can't put a gas-vent system on a pistol. That is a big deal. Maybe you should actually try building this hypothetical pistol, because you can't. You can get to 11 RC (enough to freely use HV) on an assault rifle or SMG with a cyberarm gyromount, or 9 (enough for full auto) on a machine pistol. Without a cyberarm gyromount, you can still get to 8-9 RC on an assault rifle, or 8 on a SMG.

If you think you can do this on a pistol, please, detail how.

Take Aim, which gives +1 die or removes range penalties, is a simple action not free action. Called shot is the free action.

Thus if you want to fire twice rather than once, the sniper rifle is superior because the range increment penalties take effect later.

woops, you're right. Guess it's because my street sams and adepts usually have Krav Maga.
Still unaimed long range firefights are pretty rare in a typical Shadowrun.

I think the biggies are the close range increment of over 100m, and the second is the absolute range advantage. You can snipe people at ranges where they can't even shoot back. Simple as that. So even if they find you, they will need to extensively relocate before being able to flush you out. And that gives you plenty of time to get away, or do other things - such as shoot them again, if they have no cover.

Granted, in an urban environment a good sniping position close by is probably equivalent. If you look at all those Juba incidents in Iraq, "the" sniper was often only using a modified AK74 or AKM and shooting from a car - the No.1 sniping spot in modern history. And even in SR it's great, because you can snipe, move, snipe, move, and there are tons of cars everywhere.

I'll also say that in SR3 the range increments were rather more important - in spite of free action zooming, you never got to use your smartgun with zoom.

Long range fire is a very niche application. You basically have to plan ahead, which is fine.

Ah, never noticed that they restricted what you could put it on. Seems kind of stupid that you can only put it on those weapons, and I'm 99% sure they did it so that people didn't use them on other weapons to negate the penalty for the second shot on SA weapons. I figure any weapon capable of burst or FA fire should be able to have a gas vent. But yeah, you're right, RAW they can't have them, and so you're right, FA pistols are at a large disadvantage.

Even so. With Krav maga at 550m.

Sporting Rifle: Free action take aim, simple action shoot, simple action shoot (-7 penalty). [only available with the Ruger 100]
Sniper Rifle: Free action take aim, simple action shoot, simple action shoot (-4 penalty).

Your take aim will only apply to the next shot so regardless you will get -3 more worth of range increment penalties than the sniper rifle. Not to mention the sporting rifle is only on par damage wise and inferior in ammunition. The advantages to sporting rifles are cost and availability. You can at least be licensed to carry a sporting rifle around with you.

You can be licensed to carry a sniper rifle. I'm sure it isn't easy, but it is possible. I believe a .50 cal sniper rifle is the most powerful weapon a civilian is allowed to own in the modern USA.

I'll be honest. I think that rule was an oversight. My guess is that weapon modification rules were created PRIOR to creating the new weapons. Within the SR4 weapons there are only three weapons that fall outside of those categories that support BF and only one that supports FA. Yamaha Sakura Fubuki [Light Pistol], Ares Viper Slivergun [Heavy Pistol], and the Mossberg AM-CMDT [Shotgun] were the three weapons that are BF or FA. Two of these weapons only fire flechette style ammunition, which logically made no sense to have a gas vent as that could cause some of the flechette to scatter sideways or even back at the shooter. The Fubuki fires differently from all other weapons with how recoil stacks and thus gas vent is entirely unnecessary.

The only bit about raw that dissuades me from the interpretation that a weapon needs BF or FA to qualify for Gas Vent is that it doesn't say that firing mode changes allow the modification. Of course, gas vent is a pointless upgrade for any weapon that doesn't fire BF or FA. Regardless, I'm more inclined to houserule that a weapon modded for BF or FA can make use of the gas vent modification.



No. All sniper rifles have a forbidden rating while sporting rifles are just restricted. You can carry a sporting rifle with a license. If you get caught with a sniper rifle, you ass will be hauled in do not pass go.

You can't own a .50 in California, I believe, but no permit is required to own a rifle that fires the round.

That is RL, however, and has no place here in SR4.

You can't buy the weapon. Hence why Barrett no longer does business with the state of California or any of its municipalities.

Right, because it's classified in CA as an assault weapon, which are illegal to import into the state unless you're an agency of the state licensed to have them (Law enforcement) or an authorized Title III(I believe it's III) dealer.

Fortunately, I don't live in CA so I can have one for hunting those really aggressive deer.

Hmm I'm not so sure about that. Zooming in works until the target or the shooter moves. Especially at longer ranges, the shooter may fire the second shot before the bullet hits the target and makes the target "move". Also movement isn't clearly defined. It could mean literally any movement, like raising an arm or eyebrow, or just the displacement of the entire body in reference to a fix point (i.e. walking, running). The latter can only take place during the character's Action Phase. So the shooter is at least safe from that.

Might as well call a rock a rock. Looks like automatics has been voted most well rounded firearm skill in SR4. My hypothesis, and ego, have been shattered. Great discussion everyone.

I think the deal is that you have to "aquire" the target with your scope or other vision mag, and then you can shoot with that magnification without mods until it moves, i.e. leaves your target reticle. So you can always get off two shots after zooming, but have to re-aquire again if the target runs.

that's how I play it.

I should have included the -2 penalty for switching targets.

Because, if you're a character that can do this sort of sharp shooting, if your first shot doesn't kill (exception being heavily armored characters) there's a very good chance that you're better off to the team to shoot a 2nd target rather than the first one. At least that's how I play. Dropping a -2 (if the target is really lucky) or a -3 wound penalty (the usual suspect) on two foes (and knock them down on the ground) is frequently much better for my teammates that are closer to the enemy than only killing one enemy. That's ignoring if whether or not the mook's allies bother to try to save him. There's exceptions to this, I'll take two shots on a longer ranged character if he's carrying weaponry that I suspect is going to be pretty dangerous to my teammates. Though, generally I'm rocking such a dice pool that most mooks die in one shot.

I just find sporting rifles to be no where near as versatile as sniper rifles in a combat situation. I acknowledge that the purpose of Sporting Rifles is to provide a long range alternative that is not going to get your ass thrown in prison just for having it on your person or to serve as a "poor-man" sniper rifle.

Against mooks you're probably right. but against opposition with similar dice pools ane equipment, I#d rather have only one guy shooting than two with a minor distraction. Since I don't know their expertise, especially when surprising them, I always go for that option.

I've always taken the stance that long range shooting in Shadowrun is not meant to be there for kills. Since you are under less threat from opponents, you have much more freedom in which targets you can choose and consequently have the ability to control more of the battlefield. Knocking two mooks on their asses (because let's face it, you're probably going to do enough damage to auto-knockdown with the attack) is not something to sneer at. I believe that in my group I have the most disarms even though one character's concept is to disarm and use opponent's weapons against them. Now yes, I could take the approach of kill one target, kill the next target, kill the next target, but that is bland and boring on a role that is already on the lower side of fun. I view my character as a guardian angel not a cold-blooded killer.

In a firefight knockdown is actually less than useful. The target has no penalty to attack and gets extra defense against all but the closest attackers.

Whether one or the other tactic is more boring I cannot say. Unless I'm a Combat Sense Monster I'd rather face one opponent with a dice pool of 19 than two with one of 16. If the starting pool were 6-8 I'sd see it differently.

If someone just took enough damage to be auto-knocked down, wouldn't they scramble for cover to try to survive? The next shot means their life. If the GM agrees, knock down is pretty useful, isn't it?

Mesh

Like I said, a long range shooter should adapt his approach to the team he is with and play tactically to control the battle precisely because of the reduced threat to the shooter. My team consists of two melee combatants, one that heavily uses pistols (may or may not be within 5 meters of the target), and myself. Knockdown is a huge boon for them (+3 to ally's attack, -2/-3 wound penalty to enemy's defense, -2 defense from being prone, -1 for defending against my attack). Optimal situation was I just gave us an 18 dice advantage when attacking them and a 6 dice advantage when they attack us. And since I delay so that I act at the end of the turn and my allies act at the beginning (I usually can't beat their initiatives) the 18 dice advantage is more likely to apply rather than 6 dice. It also has the nice advantage of reducing overkill.

I get irritated when I shoot a target with 10 boxes in its physical track for 9P damage and then my second shot does 10+P damage (my damage range has been averaging 9-13P). The first shot didn't matter. It's excessively inefficient for me to put more than one bullet into a target.

Well, all I really know on that subject is that the Mythbusters have mentioned the .50 cal as being 'the most powerful weapon you are legally allowed to own' and they operate in California.

Of course, they've also used a van mounted minigun before, but they never said anything about that being legal to own, just that they borrowed it.

And an F rating doesn't mean no one can own it legally (because then it wouldn't exist), just that you're going to get into more trouble if you have one without a permit, and that a (legal) permit is going to be harder to get.

It's kind of like you get into a little bit of trouble if you have a pistol without a permit, but if you have an assault rifle or something without a permit (I presume you can get a permit for these, as you see them at NRA meets and such) you're going to get some serious judicial wrath brought down on you.

In California, per the .50 ban of 2004, they are classified as an assault weapon and are treated as such under the Assault Weapons Ban. Those who own one pre-ban can continue to do so, but they cannot be imported into the state.



If it is a pre-ban AR, then you may own it. If it was imported/manufactured post-ban, you're in deep shit.

Is this part of the conversation California specific still, and are we talking all ARs or just ones capable of automatic fire? Most states its perfectly legal to buy SA ARs, no special license required (I picked one up last week, took all of 20 minutes to fill out the background check and have it processed). CA gunlaws are simply rediculous when compared to most of the rest of the country.

Cali-specific. I think the AW ban lapsed about two years ago or so federally. Automatic weapons are still covered under the Machine Gun Ban of 1934.

If it's SA-only, it's hardly an assault rifle. Not usefully so, anyway. Similar restrictions apply to clip (yes, not magazine, suck it purists) size.

So in RL, or at least the portion of it named the USA, Longarms IS the most well rounded skill as you can own a shotgun and a sport rifle but automatics are right out?

Almost all RL sniper rifles are also legal to own.

Assault Rifles, IIRC, are classified as so by having some combination of the following: Detachable mag, semiautomatic action, flash suppressor, pistol grip. I only knows what's legal and not, regardless of the lack of logic.

Fortunately, we don't have to worry about this now(unless you're in California).

Actually those are assault weapon features as per the 1994 assault weapons ban, assault rifle is a category of weapon with its own definition. Almost all (those sold to normal citizens) ARs sold in the US are only AR in style though as they don't meet the technical definition, they don't have selective firing modes (and mine is too low of a caliber).

I don't know about rifles being the most usefull skill in RL, mainly because I think the categories would be a little different. RL firearms would be split more like pistols-rifles-military.

Also, as far as the myth busters are concerned, they generally get access to their weaponry via the local PD, so they arent "owning" them.

That's totally not scary at all....
Isn't there supposed to be some kind of 5 day waiting period? Braidy Bill or something? Or is that just after you first get your license? I'm guessing you mean you already have a license/permit and just got a new weapon.


While true that they do have all kinds of really cool connections, but the sniper rifle seemed to be something that they got from a (non-police) firing range. But it could have come through their police connections.

I totally want to make a character based on the mythbusters now.

The waiting period is typically for handguns, as I recall - though I got mine same day when I paid cash for it.

Well, dont mind if i do...


Jamie "The Walrus" Hyneman

Elf (on account of him being "ancient")

B-3, A-3 R-4 S-3, C-3 I-5, L5, W-3, E-3

Skills-

Firearms group-3
Electronics group-4
Mechanic-3
Diving-5
Athletics group-3
Chem Active 5

I'm thinking higher willpower for putting up with Adam all day

Also thinking a somewhat lower athletics group. Otherwise, yeah, looks good.

What was the one I heard on MB lately... Something about Rome/Greek being when Jamie was just a tyke. And the best part was that Jamie agreed

Yep, that was the new episode, where they were testing the myth of a MachineBow, an ancient roman automatic bow, Adam said it was being invented when he was a tyke

It's legal in a big chunk of the US to own automatic weapons with a $200 tax stamp and some level of background check. It's not common because most people either don't care to own one or don't care to pay the cost, and there's a number of states (my native Washington being one of them) which have more restrictive local laws.

Just out of couriositsy, do you have to pay the tax on purchase, monthly or yearly?

In some states, no license or waiting period or anything like that here in OH, any basic firearm is purchaseable with a quick background check. A concealed carry permit (requires classes) is required to hide a gun on your person (openly carried weapons are legal but likely to cause trouble unless you're a rent a cop or such) or to transport a weapon with its ammunition not carefully separated. More serious items are obtainable through federal laws as mentioned by purchasing a tax stamp, I haven't looked up automatic weapons, but a silencer is a one time $200 tax stamp (each I think?) which includes a thorough ATF background check which may take several months to process.

Back on topic I think in RL just as in SR it still comes down to what purpose you want, in RL pistols and longarms are easier to obtain and transport non-seruptisiously, pistols are easy to conceal and good in close quarters, shotguns have a bit of versatility and good medium range abilities and rifles are good at range, but the less common and more frowned upon assault weapons are still going to be one of your best all around bets to take someone out.

Unlike RL in SR it appears that basic assault weapons have the same license restriction thad pistols and rifles do. I would infer from that information that weapon usage for personal defense is up significantly (duh), probably even enough that cops would expect you to have a pistol or assault weapon in your car just as much or more then they would expect you to have a hunting rifle.

And once you have the permission, you still need to buy your new full-auto remedy against the King of England. Since no new "machine guns" may enter the market since 1986, that will be quite an investment. Which is a really interesting approach from an outside POV - don't ban possession, but simply make acquisition prohibitively expensive.


But since we are already talking about longarms, there's another thing which bothered me recently: Why do tech types in games always carry shotguns? If you look at charsheets for hackers or riggers, far more than avreage will have "Longarms (Shotguns)". If you play an FPS with classes, it's a safe bet the engineer will have a shotty. The TM I'm currently running has one, and I couldn't even tell you why I picked that and not an SMG. So really, where does that association between wrenches and shotguns come from?

Actually the books don't say anything how easy the different licenses are to obtain legally nor how common they are. The R only indicates that as a natural person you may obtain such a license. So you attract less attention with a licensed pistol than a licensed AR. This is up to the GM though.

@Shotguns&Wrenches: might just be a balance tool. The engineer in an FPS shouldn't be able to do long range sniping in a ddition to fixing and sabotaging machines. another thing is that those types usually are behind cover and thus need to fear sniping less than a close range attack from someone sneaking up on them. SMGs would do the job just as nicely though. Guess for whom the MP7 was developped. Engineers and Medics.

Exactly, the standard choice for engineers, tank crews, truck drivers, MPs and everybody else who is not supposed to see enemy through a rifle sight are carbines or SMGs. And that's nothing new, before the MP7 there was the MP2.

Yet somebody decided to give this role to shotguns in games, and I want to know who is responsible

At least in the case of the games I've played, it's been a case of the other guns being assigned elsewhere so shotgun was what's left.

There's also the fact that Army engineers etc actually have firearms training whereas in games it seem to be more shotguns are easy to hit with so we'll give them to the guys that can't shoot straight.

The $200 tax stamp is per automatic weapon/suppressor/what-have-you, and is paid only when you purchase it... no yearly or whatever tax on ownership.

The arguement I've always heard for giving techs/engineers in games shotguns was that they weren't expected to need the kind of range or capacity you've got in an assault rifle, but they were likely to get surprise-jumped by infiltrators and need to kill some people quickly on their way to cover/backup/running away, hence the shotgun (high damage output at close range, usually limited by slow reload/low capacity) being a good choice for that. SMG's tend to be more maneuverable as they tend to be shorter than a serious combat shotgun... you could make an arguement for that being good for assault in close quarters, or for defense coming out of a vehicle, either way. My personal opinion? If it's not for the above reasons, it's because that's what every other game does

Yeah, an SMG (or a 'PDW' like the P90) seems *much* smaller and 'close-quarters' than a shotgun.

Bad Company 2
Engineers carry carbines and smgs. Shotguns are actually a subset weapon for all classes and when taking them as your primary will alternate what is available to your kit. Also... nothing says "hello" like getting a kill with the repair tool.

Medics carry light machine guns.

Looks like everyone forgot about lasers.

Ares Redline: pistol size with SMG ranges and 5P -half AP damage.
Ares MP3: assault rifle size with sport rifle ranges and 7P -half AP damage.
Ares Heavy MP laser: MMG/HMG size with sniper rifle ranges and 9P -half AP damage.

Cost and prohibitive restrictions be damned! That's one skill that gives you pistols and tank-busters all at once!