It does, actually. Accessories attached to implants must match the grade (4a 313). Which means that alpha/beta/delta versions of said accessories must also exist.

Alright. In your version of shadowrun, what exactly doesn't get affected by the higher grade price hike?

or, pop quiz: How much does a beta-grade commlink(at rating 5) with a simsense accelerator, a skinlink, and a non-standard wireless link cost?
I want to see some answers to this. I'm pretty much expecting everyone to come up with a different #.

Ah, see. I knew that was what had confused you. Here's the actual rule: "Note that cyberware accessories must be of the same grade as the implant they are added to."

Nothing about this rule says 'use the same cost multiplier'. It says 'must be the same grade'. As I said, this is a big hint that it's talking about things that actually have grades. A cyberwear accessory is, for example, Flare Comp in your cybereyes; it has a grade.

A commlink is a commlink, implanted or not. It's (X + commlink cost). Commlink cost has nothing to do with X. There is no such thing as a 'beta-grade commlink', and a betaware Implanted Commlink does not default to Device Rating 5.

No, this is a bullshit line of reasoning perpetuated my wrong information.

Redlining, or Full Power/Overclocking, is an optional rule in Augmentation, which is not being used.

There is already a rule in place for running cyberware at capacity: Processor Limit. Heat and Power are non-issues in shadowrun, much like storage space - several sidebars point this out. If you run too many programs, you lose response, thats it.

A cyberimplants function isn't affected by the programs it runs. at all.
You are suggesting that -everyone- with cyberware automatically get hit with addiction just because. There is literally no distinction between loads and power beyond a hit to Response. Which doesn't matter at all for, say, wired reflexes.

Stop applying real world rules to fictional game mechanics. No, it often doesn't make sense.

You mean poorly-implemented game mechanics. You're right: it often doesn't make sense. That's what we in the world call a Bad Thing. That's the whole discussion here: clustering cyberware doesn't make sense, RAW or not. (Clustering various other things without consequences/explanations *also* doesn't make sense, but that's less of an abuse problem). We have a whole thread devoted to point out the deep and horrible ways RAW is so frequently wrong.

The simplest answer is that it *should* matter for Wired Reflexes. If there's processing power in that implant, it should all be used up by a bunch of reflex-related programs. Or, in the simpler style of rule proposed in this thread, there just isn't processing power. Its entire node existence is a tiny diagnostic system, in this case.

I would agree that it should matter.

Sadly, Response is not Reaction, and it doesn't make a lick of difference what your processor is running.

As for your question-dodge about a rating 5 commlink: Thats also part of the problem, since you need to customize a commlink to get to R5 across the board. Exactly what part of the base cost gets doubled? If you start from an sony Emperor or a Fairlight, and don't pay extra for the response upgrades, is the resulting price discrepancy fair? Just how does the 2000+commlink cost work out when calculating grades into that?

Seriously, go through and calculate the cost for a modified, implanted commlink with a handful of mods and accessories.

Question *dodge? I couldn't be plainer: the commlink is fully separate. Only things that *have* grades can be bought at higher grades. The rule (again!) doesn't say 'match the multiplier'.

Let's take a look at how we got here.

I posted the following:
You asked how:
I explained the joke/scenario/story:

And it's being called a "bullshit line of reasoning"?

Take a deep breath. This is supposed to be "fun". If you're looking to get in a fight with someone over it, I'll pass, thank you.

And yet, the cost for a cyber commlink is 2000+ commlink cost.
So you're saying that, under the regular rules, no matter what you put in the commlink, it doesn't make it more expensive to get in alpha.

I'm fairly certain I recall you arguing the opposite last time this issue came up.

I can't imagine that, but show me the posts. I'm absolutely saying now that the commlink cost is not a grade, and not related to grades. Are you saying you think that ammo for cyberguns are subject to implant grade cost multipliers? What about the implanted dart guns, do you multiply the cost of the toxins? You can see how it's quickly crazy.

Well, ammo isn't part of the base cost, but the cost of a commlink does change as stuff is added to it.

And yes, it does quickly get out of control. I'm not willing to say its a clear, well thought out rule, but it is a rule.

Oh, its a joke. Right. My bad. You're totally not one of those dumpshockers who tries to substitute real life for rules they can't be bothered to read. Got it.

Except it's not a rule. The rule is that cyberware accessories (e.g., flare comp) must match *grade*.

Exactly...

I would like to point out that my ruling that started this thread isn't changing any rules. It isn't a house rule or optional rule or variant rule.
It is enforcing a rule. The device rating rules.

That paragraph clearly states that if something is important, it can't use a simple device rating. Only when something plays a passing role in an adventure does it default to a device rating.
I can't imagine anyone feels that a PC's Matrix stats, especially those of a team's hacker, are unimportant; much less that they are passive to any adventure.

I do not, however, want to make the decision of what cyberware's stats should be unilaterally. I want the input and opinion of the community. If you feel that cyberware should have a Response equal to it's Device Rating, I want to know why you feel that way and I want to hear the arguments for your case. If you feel otherwise, I also want to know what you think. It is my intention to create some form on consensus on this issue, however tissue thin it may be.

As far as my own opinion, I feel an increase in Response isn't needed when fully stating out cyberware(something the rules dictate & require) as the peripheral node rules state that an increased Response in unnecessary to increase the System rating on such a device. Subsequently, cyberware may have programs, System and Firewall in relation to it's grade without the necessity of increasing Response. This is represented in the stats for a credstick, and represented well, I feel. In addition, it should be presumed that cyberware, despite it's grade, needn't have a Signal rating of 3 or higher unless some special recommendation is made by the player.

Furthermore, I don't feel that increased Response is implied in the cost of the cyberware, as bioware increases at the same rate without said benefit. Also, in previous editions of Shadowrun, cyberware grade increased at the same rate, but without the expectation of increased Matrix capability either.

If you disagree, please let me know. Let me know why you feel this way, show you work if possible and help me come to a consensus to this issue. I know that such a task may be drek near impossible, but it is certainly worth trying.

waves hand.

I believe that!

In the long run the player is rolling a certain number of dice. If he has to to the trouble of clustering cyberware to get those dice so be it. Whatever those dice are, be they 5,12,18,22,or 34 doesn't matter in and of themselves. What they matter is in relationship to 3 things.
1) The man on the street, who, even in a low-powered ganger campaign doesn't stand a chance, but it at least shows that the characters have the power of heroes.
2) The other players. If one player has, in multiple situations, more dice than everyone else, there's going to be trouble. Sure, that player may have a great time, but at the expense of the other players.
3) The opposition.

Given a balanced table, The opposition's dice are the only dice that matter. The opposition's dice need to exactly as high as the players NEED them to be. If the players NEED to mow down the opposition like wheat, then the opposition's dice pool sucks. If the players NEED to be risking their character's lives every mission, then the dice pool is much higher.

The opposition's dice pool is incredibly adjustable on the fly. Add more people. Add better gear. The manager in charge of the museum is now an ex-marine drawing retirement. Knight Errant has a dispatch station 2 blocks away and they're wearing non-conductive armor. The hacker and rigger who defend the place are into clustering and have been building one heck of a toy over the past year because, quite frankly, their job is boring.

Or take away dice. Have less people. Have them not as well equipped. Have them use stupid tactics. Have them surrender early. It's easy to make the opposition fail.

If the player is going to the trouble of clustering cyberware on his main character then that player has some sort of complex the table is going to have to deal with. Yay! The player broke the game. Really, was it that hard to do? Do we move on to the next game to be broken or do we actually play this one? If the player REALLY needs a nexus in their head to enjoy Shadowrun, then it's not going to be enough, because he's going to need the kind of praise and attention from the other players that he's just not going to get. They're going to get tired of this after awhile and that's the opposite of what he's seeking.

If you're clustering for fun, do it for fun and don't get everyone at the table hung up on the rules. Eyeball it and get on with having a good time.

Well, Fortinbras, I can say this. The one time that my Character used the Clustering rules for Cyberware was so minimal (Used Once in 320 Karma, and just over 30 Months of playing), it was NOT a major part of the campaign, and filled, in fact, a very passing role (except for the Time it was used). Though I had set up the barebones of the cluster early in the campaign, it was always intended to be used as a last resort, if my Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary Matrix connections were severed or removed. In the end, it was good that I had taken the forethought to prepare for that, because it helped the character to survive, and eventually escape the situation he was in. Was it important in the instance that the rules were used? Absolutely. But, overall, it really played such an insignificant role as to be almost nonexistant. Anecdotal, to be sure, but has some relevance.

A Hacker should have more than enough connectivity that Clustering of Cyberware should not be a major concern 99% of the time, at least in my opinion. Should the Clustering Rules be mainstream? I actually see no real reason that they would need to be, for the most part.

In the End, I liked your proposal for the stats of the Clustering components. They seemed pretty fair, at least in my opinion.

I'm with ya, Fortinbras! Hehe. If they want more processing power (with or without clustering), they should simply buy more devices (commlinks, for preference). If they *seriously* are dying to be a walking nexus, then get *implanted* commlinks, preferably in a cyberlimb.

Clustering per se isn't the problem (though it has a couple logic/function issues). The problem is getting something for nothing, from an unreasonable source, and using a loophole. Each of those aspects is problematic, and it's so easy to fix (give cyberware low Peripheral-style Response).

Let's examine possible side effects: Cyberware will be easier to Nuke, I guess, though high System helps plenty. Um. You can't run IC/much IC on cyberware? Seems like that's how it should be.

Indeed... I see Clustering of Cyberware as a Last Ditch attempt at using something, anything, to get that hack, when all other options have absolutely failed, and you have absolutely no other method of pursuing the goal. There are so many other, and better, ways to go about that.

For my Armed Escort(combat face) character i'm planning on clustering her Attention coprocessor, cyber eyes/ears and math SPU(once i get it ugraded in game) together to run her sensor suite, because to me it just makes sense to run the sensor softwares on her sensor releted wares.

I don't agree, but do what gives you joy.