Hello all,

A quick question. According to the SR4A book on p. 161, armor values don't stack if you're wearing multiple pieces of armor. Fine. This seems to be the case in Arsenal as well. Yet, I get the distinct feeling from reading some of the character generations here on this forum that armor can stack. Can someone please give me the definitive answer?

As well, where can I find the best FAQ for SR4A?

Thanks.

The core RAW for Armor is that Armor does not stack. As with any other rule in this game, this is the rule unless there is a specific circumstance where an exception is printed.

In Arsenal there are the PPP Systems and Form Fitting Body Armor. Both of these state that they stack with all other forms of Armor, becoming the exception to the rule.

Arsenal also has "piecemail" Armor systems. These are essentially pieces of an armored ensemble outfit that you can wear some or all of and I guess kind of mix and match if you're so inclined (I'm not, so my views on this are a little off).

FFBA also only counts as half of its rating when determining encumbrance. FFBA tends to draw the ire of some GMs, so it is often nerfed with various house rules.

a quick check threw of the rules for the form fitting suggests also it doesn't "replace" natural armour or cyberware armour, possibly meaning some players are running around with 3 layers of armour, unless I missed something.

3+

Example: Mystic Adept with Mystic Armor, Armor Spell, Orthoskin or Dermal Plating, armor in a cyber arm, and a full set of Form Fitting Body Armor.

It all stacks, and we haven't even put on the normal armor yet so throw on an Armored Jacket or Lined Coat to top it all off.

Also the Troll Dermal deposits and maybe one of the SURGE qualites too.

I have a feeling AP rounds is almost as common as standard bullets with stuff like that X3

It gets worse if you stack all that on top of an armored anthroform drone.



The main thing that allows this is that only WORN armor has the prohibition on stacking.

If I were to re-write the system I'd rename "worn armor" to "primary armor" and move a lot of the non-worn armor into that category. Everything else is "secondary armor" and can only add up to, say 50% to the primary armor value.


-k

Mecha do *not* exist (la la la, no Iron Will, can't hear you). Even if they did, that's a vehicle you're driving/riding in. I dunno why everyone always mentions vehicles in these threads. You could also sleep inside a missile bunker, but that's not 'your armor'.

Ok, thanks. Yeah, I would rule that if you stack armour, you only gain the best ballistic/impact value, and possibly a +1 AV for the additional layer (maybe).

Now, is there a centralized and useful FAQ?

No. There's one on the Catalyst site that has *some* answers, though. They're not all right.

I don't think he was talking about Mecha, but to normal Anthroform Drones like the Otomo or Tomino which riggers can use.

Those are just (yet another) area where the RAW breaks down into an infinite spiral of "...the hell were they smoking when they wrote this?"

Oh, I see what you mean. With KarmaInferno, I'm afraid my brain short-circuits to 'pixie in a mecha'. Thanks!

I always kind of assume Otomo armor is the same as cyber armor, so in my brain we'd 'already mentioned it'.

Well yeah, Otomo wearing Armor and their limbs can be customized like cyber limbs, so yeah Armor + Cyber Armor.

The problem is that there is nothing stopping the Otomo, a drone, from also having its 6 Bod worth of Vehicle Armor. Naturally there is no mention of whether that stacks, only a couple drones mentioning that it's possible.

I really wonder if the guys who write these individual sections talk to each other. I used to wonder if they got together and playtested this stuff, but I think we can rule that out in most cases.

Well, *everything* with anthro-borgs is a mess, so this comes as no surprise.

The Nartaki Armored Wall

Full Cyber Replacement Body
Maximum Bulk Enhancement
Max Armor
Restricted Gear (Cyber Armor)
Restricted Gear (Cyberskull)
Biocompability
In Debt
Born Rich

Basic Cyber Armor Value: 30
FFBA: 6/4
Chameleon Suit: 6/4
Total Armour: B 44 / I 38 with no encumbrance

Ok, normal boring human with stats of 3 but pretty much bulletproof. Have a low lifestyle and 32K left for gear and further limb enhancements.

So...we take a Horseman. give it the enhanced cargo module, add two more mechanical arms.
Take restricted Gear: Cyberarmor
Choose Similar Models to up the body by 1 and lower movement speed
Add Vehicle Armor (BODx2) so 14 armor
Add 4X4 Cyber armor for a total of 16

Vehicle armor of 30 on a personal mobility vehicle.

Oh, we are not done yet. We have used 5 slots of the vehicles 7 so we add an extra mechanical arm and end up with 34 armor on a mobility vehicle that can carry up to 5 different guns (one in each mechanical limb).

We then add Bulk Enhancements so that we negate the space of the armor and add Cyber SMG Vambracers or Shotguns to each limb for some fun firepower.

We now have a military walker drone with a lot of suppressive fire (between 5 to 10 guns giving supressive fire and the armor of a tank.

From what i understand stacking armor is how those full suits like the great mortimer stuff works, by itself the suit isnt great but when u add the vest and the shirt it gets a lot better. But remember, the rules on encumberance still hold so u cant just have lots and lots of armor without a bunch of body as well, and if u are wearing a vest, that armor wont apply to your legs, just your torso. You can pretty much assume that shots in shadowrun, if not called will hit the centre of mass of a person (hence helmets not being as important as they should be) or if you are feeling adventurous you can always make up a hit table and roll some dice to see which part of the body gets hit with the bullet.

No, there are no hit locations in shadowrun, not even with called shots. The system is not equipped to deal with them. You cannot try to shoot at a specific location. All the GM can do is describe a particularly successful roll as hitting an unprotected area.

A heavily plated banana hammock will offer the same protection as a full body suit, if their armor values are the same. And both will require the same dice pool reduction to shoot at an unarmored area.

If you try to introduce hit locations to SR you will ge a lot of headaches and the whole armor system will have to be reworked, unless you want at least as many silly cases where the rules don't properly model reality.

Has there ever been a definitive ruling on how cyberlimb armor works/stacks? I've seen builds where it is counted as though it stacks, but this seems kind of ridiculous. On the other hand, all of the other enhancements and attributes for a cyberlimb don't stack (have two STR 3 arms doesn't give you STR 6), so there is precedent for now allowing cyberlimb armor to stack.

The called shot rules cover several cases that are clearly "hit locations", such as knocking something out of the target's grasp, or "targeting a vital area" (such as the head). Furthermore, it's pretty clear in the descriptions that in general, higher armor values are associated not only with the quality of materials, but the area being covered, so it is doubtful that a heavily plated banana hammock would be entitled to the same armor value as a bulletproof vest.

The rules (thankfully) use abstraction to avoid forcing everyone to roll on a hit location table, but there are rules in place for special situations, and common sense goes a long way.

RAW, FAQ, etc., it simply stacks. It's not an attribute, so it doesn't average (the number work out pretty badly on that, anyway). If you want to avoid fully stacking (and I think we all do, hehe), you have to really revamp it with house rules.

Yes: those aren't hit locations, they're generic 'special effects' of the shot. The GM handles them on a case-by-case basis.

Man, I sure hope I get a response to that armor stacking question. it's been bugging me for a while.

Armore stacking per RAW (we can discuss the sillyness/fluffness/brokeness till the Cyber trolls com home). Listed below off the top of my head are the possible stacking situations. Note this is an extremem case.

Base armor: Such as an armor jacket: 8 Ballisitc/5 impact
Helmet:Such as the securetech helmet: +1/+2
Shield: Just go with the ballistic shield:+4/+4)
Securetech PPP: AFB but I think you can get at least +2/+4)
Formfit body armor: +4/+2 and only counts for half encombrance
Cyber: Adding two arms and a cyber torso with 4 points of protection each:+12/+12 (does not encumber)
Natural: AFB but trolls get a +1/+1 (does not encumber)
Sustained: Force 6 Armor spell: +6/+6 (does not encumber)

Total armor: 38 Ballistic, 36 Impact.

To avoid encumbrance purposes, a 9 body is needed.

What would kill this PC:
Magic
Panthercannon rounds (it would take a few)
HMG fire with APDS
Lasers
Acid
Capsule rounds with DMSO and <nasty chemical>
Thor shot
A Nuke


BTW-this exceeds the armor of a stonewall MBT iirc.

Hmm suggested house rule on cyber armor:
Each limb and head provides up to 3 points armor, the torso may provide up to 6 points of armor.

It's funny because he's 'ignoring' me.

A quibble...
You can only max Cyberlimb armor at 4 Armor/Limb. So it would be +8 to your calculations, not +12...

I think you mean Capsule rounds. Gel rounds are just hard rubber, while capsule rounds are similar to paintballs.

Not a worry. Just run away around a corner. It'll never catch you.

If you assume that cyberlimb armor stacks with itself (and there is nothing in RAW to suggest that this is so, technically) then you might as well get two legs as well, and get +16.

You are right, assuming you actually want to HACK OFF YOUR LEGS, along with YOUR ARMS. The vast majority will not go that route, if they have the option. *shrug*

Many people make some crazy assumptions when it comes to Edge Cases. Just remember that it is an Edge case and don't worry too much about it.

Well, since the example being discussed had already hacked off their arms, I figure hacking off their legs wouldn't be much of a problem.


Personally, this is why I think assuming that cyberlimb armor stacks with itself is silly. I would just average the armor of all of the limbs in question and add that to the armor total. It's still kind of cheesy, but they're paying a lot of essence for the privilege.

IMO, combat becomes a lot less fun once you're dealing with armor 20 or so; attack options become fewer, because there are only so many ways to counteract that kind of soak, and counting up that many dice after the roll slows down combat a lot. Bear in mind that I run weekdays, so I've only got like 3 hours or so with my players; every minute counts.

So you're saying that if you buy a single arm, pack it full of armor at the expense of over half that limb's capacity for 4 armor, you as GM would then average that out among the character's limbs for a grand total of .8 Armor (.6667 if you count the head as a full limb).

Gee that is totally worth the investment of an entire point of essence and not maxing your cyberarm's stats or having a neat cyber gizmo.

All so you can average Armor among the limbs as if it were an Attribute (the only thing explicitly stated as averaged among cyberlimbs). Armor of course is not an Attribute. Pretty much explicitly so you can weed out edge cases featuring full body cyber replacement.

I'm glad I don't play at your table.

How is that in any way related to what I just said? If you bought only one cyberlimb, and I suggested averaging out the armor on your cyberlimbs (you can't install armor on regular limbs, after all), then you'd be dividing 4 by 1, for a total of 4 armor.


If cyberlimb armor isn't an attribute, then what is it? How should it be treated? We know that it stacks with worn armor, but since it isn't defined as worn armor, why would it stack with itself? If you have some page numbers to cite instead of embarrassing yourself with poor reading comprehension, I'm all ears.


I'll go a step further, and say that it's a goddamn tragedy that we're posting in the same thread.

Becuase it is not an attribute. It is an Enhancement, IIRC; Says so right in the Table. And since it is not WORN ARMOR, it stacks with anything NOT WORN. So it stacks with itself.

And really. ~ 4-5 Essence for 16-20 Armor is not all that great of a trade, In my opinion. *shrug*




And there you go again, JonathanC, pissing in people's wheaties... There really was no need for that.

Always making friends.

The assumption is that cyberarmor is being averaged across all limbs (not just cyberlimbs), because that's how cyber-attributes work, and this interpretation is generally framed as 'treating armor like an attribute' (… duh ). Averaging over just cyberlimbs is just as problematic, though; it's just shifting the numbers around. Limiting cyber armor on a per limb basis is one of the more workable rules I've seen (in this thread, it was mentioned by Warlordtheft). Some people put the max at 2/limb instead, but either way, this solution reduces the overall tanking without involving the mess that is limb-averaging, rounding, etc. (Other options include increasing the Capacity cost of armor, or doing both, or only allowing it on full limbs; in another thread, one random suggestion was something like only allowing it on the torso?)

You're citing an edge case. What we're really talking about is 1.6 essence for 8/8 armor, realistically. Or 3.2 for 16/16, which is a lot, to be sure, but considering that you could then easily stack another 8/8 on without even trying (i.e. without using FFBA, just an Armor Jacket and some PPP), you're looking at 24/24 armor. On a guy with 4 body. We're talking about a regular-looking dude with better armor than an armored police car. It's more than a little disingenuous to say that this isn't ridiculous.

And again, that's if you're an idiot who doesn't know how to stack with FFBA.



You're being a bit over-sensitive. I was no more hostile to him than he was to me.

As Yerameyahu already wrote, there are only four options on called shots: avoid armor, do more damage, remove an item from the target's grasp, achieve another effect. None of them target a specific location.
That was just an exaggeration for effect. Those items actually exist in the core book: Armor Vest (6/4), Lined Coat (6/4), Chameleon Suit (6/4). All three armors are treated exactly the same way regardless of what parts of the body they cover.

It really isn't. Which is the point.

As much as this board goes on and on about "hyper specialists," I'm surprised they get so butt hurt over someone specializing in being hard to shoot to death. At character creation this sort of archetype has piss poor reaction and initiative, maybe some decent physical stats, and half the armor (due to restricted gear on cyberlimb armor above 2). The character trades killing power for the ability to last longer. Heaven forbid a Shadowrun combat last long enough to get interesting.

Even accounting for full force Veteran Runner cyber character you're looking at 16-20 armor at the expense of over half their essence and limb capacity (not to mention the actual cost in Nuyen). Who cares if he is hard to kill, he is "specialized" in being mobile cover for the guys without so much armor. He still isn't indestructible: Mana Spells, Toxins, and severe AP weapons and ammunition are going to be just as much of a pain. Not to mention that no amount of cyberlimbs or the armor stacked on them is going to do a damn thing for the Stun Condition Track and anyone smart enough to take advantage of the fact that it caps out at such a puny amount.

Remember that even deltaware limbs have the same capacity. What you can do with a limb is what you can do with a limb. Period.



But that is so threatening to the already mediocre balance of 4th edition Shadowrun that dude has created a situation where "ZOMG ONE CYBERLIMB ONLY DON'T GET A SECOND OR YOU'LL RUIN YOUR ARMOR!" and stomped out any situations where a full cyber replacement character might want, say, 8 armor total from the limbs and load the rest of the capacity up with more interesting options.

That isn't overreacting at all mate. Carry on.



There are plenty of ways to handle it. All of them are reactionary and silly.

We have this exact same conversation every day, every single day, about Magic and balance. Same thing really, you can't balance around edge-cases without shitting on the "average runner." So just like the Magic threads there are things you can do about it via RAW and there are reactionary house-rules which make the average player twitch.

The best solution is just to hope you don't get stuck at a table with an Edge Case, or be the GM that has a reasonable discussion with your player about why the character should be changed.

In this case it is an easy reasonable discussion: "Bro, too much armor. Leave it at 8-10 and use the extra capacity on much much much cooler shit. You could be leaping ridiculous heights, running stupid fast, packing ridiculous recoil compensation, with superhuman attributes, and bristling with weapons and scanners." It isn't a difficult conversation to have.

Of course the consequences of that conversation would make you wish he'd kept the Armor. Stacking Armor is great and all, but with everything else you can do with that capacity instead you'll just end up wishing he'd kept the Armor nine times out of ten.

Except that he is NOT a regular looking dude at that point. And he is NOT as armored (or even more armored) than a vehicle, since Armored Vehicles have a Different Mechanic than People do. Can he soak a ton of damage until the Heavy Weapons Squad (or a fairly decent Throwing Master) makes it onto the scene? Sure, so what? Does he likely go unconscious long before his Physical boxes are full? Likely.

Is it ridiculous? Maybe. Is it Cyberpunk? Most Definitely.

Uber-Stacking CAN be an issue, if you let it be. Start enforcing some of the fluff, and it is likely not to be. Physical Exhaustion and Dehydration often occur when wearing armor (never mind a LOT of Armor), even if the frame of the person wearing it is capable of doing so with little, to no, encumbrance. And when you are a walking tank, most businesses are NOT going to let you into their establishment, on general principles. Not to mention that the LEO's are going to be keeping an eye on you a lot, because you look like a trouble maker. *shrug*

You and I seem to be in agreement over this.

Of course. I've seen one too many Cybertanks get taken down with ridiculous little stuff like Toxins or Mana Spells to even care about the Armor.

Dude taking a literal Anti-Tank round to the chrome face and laughing about it is very Cyberpunk.

That same dude getting taken down by the lamest of Mana or Mind Manipulation spells (whether I, Gibsonite and all, like it or not) is very Shadowrun.



There is absolutely no reason why both of these types of characters should not exist in this game.

So you're really going to claim that removing an item from the target's grasp does not involve targeting THE TARGET'S HAND? I know this is going to make Ty cry, but seriously, are you stupid or something? What the hell do you think the "other effect" would be? Read the text, not some summary written by Yera. It's clear that if you *want* hit locations in the game, it is possible to target limbs. If the question was simply "SHOULD hit locations be used in Shadowrun", I'd agree with you that the answer is no. But to suggest that there are no hit locations in the game at all is simply false. Hit locations are simply mechanical effects from targeting a specific area.

The called shot rules all involve mechanical effects from targeting a specific area. They are rules for hitting specific locations.


What part of the word "abstraction" don't you understand? All three armors cover center mass, which is the most likely hit location when shooting a humanoid target. The differences in coverage likely compensated for by the differences in materials; they all average out to the same general level of protection. But it is still obvious that coverage AND material are both taken into account, otherwise there would be no reason for helmets to provide a bonus to armor.

Curbing the high end is not inherently 'reactionary and silly' (whatever that means). Yes, you can always avoid all problems by saying 'play nice' and 'no, that's not allowed here'. That's hardly the point.

There are plenty of reasons for curbing (not *banning*) armor in general, and cyberarmor in particular. A super-specialist tank—tougher than a MBT—might be cyberpunk (I don't agree), but having the average runner armor be higher than most armored vehicles is just bad Shadowrun. As noted, it makes it hard to have any fun with 'normal' weapons. Magic and toxins are their own issues to be balanced, and they certainly don't lead to the conclusion 'screw it, tanks for everyone'.

Yeah man, remember that part in Neuromancer where....oh wait. But what about that awesome chapter in Snow Crash where the guy....nevermind. Oh! Oh! What about that scene in Blade Runner where....


Oh, wait, you're just wrong.

For the purposes of being damaged with bullets, he is tougher than an armored police car. This is a fact. It is true that the car has the benefit of hardened armor, but assuming that both are forced to make resistance tests, he's about as tough as the car (lower body, to be fair). And yes, he's a regular looking dude. FFBA is worn underneath, and his clothes would cover up the cyberlimbs. He looks like a guy wearing a heavy coat. And your throwing master is doing to do jack shit, because his impact armor is equal to his ballistic.

Your buddy with adept with elemental strike (sound), however, is going to have a ball.



When did "Cyberpunk" get redefined to mean "Rifts-esque concepts of game balance"?



This is not part of the fluff of Shadowrun armor, and it is not mechanically in RAW. Compensating for poor rules balance by punishing everyone for having the audacity to wear armor is beyond retarded.


You look like a guy in a heavy coat. Even obvious cyberlimbs can easily be covered with clothing, and covert limbs only look weird on close inspection. FFBA is just a black bodysuit with a hood and some booties. An armor jacket is described, in fluff, as something you could wear on a day-to-day basis, just not in a "nice establishment".

And if you have to go someplace nice, it's easy to reach the armor encumbrance cap in formal/businesswear if you wear some PPP underneath.

Oh you're right. I totally forgot that the entirety of the Cyberpunk genre was restricted to about 4 books and Shadowrun. My bad brah.

Magic Resistant Quality, Chem resist treatment for his outer armor, internal air tank/respirator/gas mask...it's childishly easy to compensage for those. If anything, he's less boned by severe AP weapons/ammo than other characters are, because he has more to start with. Losing half your armor when you're armor 8 leaves you with 4 dice. Losing half when you're armor 24 still leaves you with more dice than the 8 armor guy had in the first place.

Basically, the GM is left with fewer options to challenge the player, and has to start leaning on magical sound attacks and similar cheese.




Everyone faces the same restriction on stun damage boxes; with a good Willpower (easy enough, especially if you go Dwarf) you'll be fine, especially since you'll be resisting most damage outright.


Lord knows that a grappling hook hand is WAAAAAY more useful than being effectively bullet-proof. I'll grant you that the jacks that increase your jumping capacity are kind of nice, but you could probably find room for those. What else are you going to use that capacity for? Strength enhancements? Spurs? Melee is largely a waste of time. Commlink? Just keep it in your pocket. Cybergun? Well, fair enough. You won't be able to hide an uzi in your thigh. Boo hoo.

There are enough miscellaneous ways to pump up any firearms dice pool that you can easily take the loss of Agility enhancements, and who cares about your Reaction? If you really must go first, spend an Edge. You'll have enough Essence left to get 3 initiative passes, and that's all that counts. Dodge is inferior to soak anyway, since soak doesn't get reduced after every time you roll it within a round.

EDIT: Why would having only one cyberlimb armored "ruin" your armor? You're averaging the armor on all of your cyberlimbs....the other limbs don't have any armor so....not a problem. You're only screwing yourself if you're an idiot who buys Armor 1 for one limb and Armor 2 for another one. It's a reasonable house rule for a situation that is very poorly defined in RAW.

Hey, you're the one who claimed that it was so prevalent in Cyberpunk that it could be considered a common trope. Start naming some examples. Really, I'll wait.


Ghost in the Shell? She's pretty tough, but no.
Robocop? Not....really.

Is there some obscure Rudy Rucker book where somebody takes an anti-tank round to the face? Did I miss the Pat Cadigan novel where some dude goes toe to toe with an Abrahms?

For starters it is an entire genre, including comic books, animation, etc. Blade Runner ruthlessly beat the 80s over the head, in case you don't remember.

Lets just focus on what you've given me. Mutual ground. Robocop. Perfect. Motoko from GITS is good too.

In both of these situations we have a cyber ubermench who is exactly indestructible. Motoko for different reasons, which are outside of the reach of Shadowrun (although perhaps replicated well enough through an AI with an Otomo drone). So lets focus on Robocop.

Robocop is indestructible. He is exactly that well armored and even seems to lack the agility due to relevant capacity, perfect example! Eventually Robocop gets a hole blown in him... how?

Through GM-fiat bullshit rifles of doom. That's how.

That's exactly how you ought to deal with characters, not just in good fiction but in good storytelling and TTRPGs. Let them have their strengths, then throw them in occasional situations where their strengths are null and void. The same way you deal with a team which has a ridiculous Face, you seperate the team and put someone else in a situation where social skills suddenly matter.

You also hand-waved magic resistance. The Magic rolls are heavily weighted against the defender and while a couple more dice can help it is just offsetting the disadvantage, espescially considering that the GM has access to the most deadly combination in magic: Overcasting and Mages who aren't an essential part of the storyline. This isn't exactly hard to figure out. Too much counterspelling helping Robocop? So long as they aren't some bizzare shadowrunning Matryoshka doll then you don't have a problem there either. Unless you're complaining that Mook Magicians can't harm Robocop, in which case Mook anything is hardly a threat to anyone and that is why they're damned Mooks.


Really though I'd take a Robocop over a Motoko any day of the week as a GM. You only have to kill Robocop once. Motoko just gets another body and comes back.

You are entertaining. I can give you that.

As for the Throwing Master. Why is he ineffective? So his Impact equals Ballistic. So what. I have seen a Throwing Adept that can routinely deal Damage in the 16P Range, with a bit of AP (from 0 to -6) going on. Even your 24 Armor/6 Body Tank is going to have issues with that after 1 Hit, let alone two. CAN it all be soaked? Sure, with some resource expenditure (Edge). Can it be soaked routinely? Absolutely not. Average is going to be 10 total Soak (with NO AP, and 8 soak with -6 AP), with Bought Soak at 7.5 (and 6 respectively). Looks like a far cry from the 16p being dealt. Besides, I have seen characters throw 30 Dice (with Edge expenditure, even; Both before and after) and still net only a single success. Dice are capricious.

Elemental Strike (Sound) is very good for chewing up that Tank Character, as well. The fact that the tank is so easily counterable makes it not that bad, really.

Both characters (Tank and Throwing Adept) are, to be sure, Edge Cases. Game Reality will fall somewhere a bit lower, of course.

Well, and the fact that you don't want to penetrate his armor. He's built for that. Stun damage is where it's at.

Not to mention that a character would have to be running long enough for some pretty serious Ware to be as indestructable as someone who stacked the damage negating stuff (Platelette Factories etc). Resigning yourself to taking a couple points of damage here and there and negating it or staging it down is a much better deal than super cyber tank, especially given the relative essence and monetary investment required for each.

And there's really nothing wrong with a table full of edge-cases. You counter with edge-cases. It is more work for the GM for sure, but if that is the game he decided to run by allowing the edge-case characters then that's fine. Everyone gets so worked up on these boards as if a GM saying "Sorry man, that isn't the kind of game I'm trying to run here" is some sort of horrific taboo.

Hell, if I showed up with a perfectly reasonable character to a Pink-Mohawk Edge-Case game I'd expect the GM to give me that same "no."