I won't be getting the LE book, simply because - while it looks absolutely stunning - I know there's going to be errors in it which will be fixed in later printings. I will be getting the rulebook when it comes out, and I know when the revised / errata'd book comes out, I'll trade up to it (which is what I did with 4E, effectively).

How about you?

First Printing LE + PDF + Revised Printing later.

Bye
Thanee

My LE's don;t get played with, so do't actually matter what the actual text says. They're for autographs and sketches from the artists and authors, and then they sit on my shelf as part of my collection.

I'm waiting for the 2dn printing before I buy a hardcopy. And keep my fingers crossed that CGL is doing a better job with releasing erratas and updating the later printings then in SR4 times.

I'll be picking up the hard copy when it gets to the uk and grabbing a revised print at some point later. I provide most of the SR material for my groups these days when we play so like to have multiple copies of my Essential books (BBB, Canon Companion, Man&Machine, Rigger3 and Matrix all have 2copied on my shelf). I can slip an erratta'd sheet into the book when it's available.

If anything, i will be getting the revised german version if i decide to buy in at all . .

Looks like I should have waited for the revised edition of the PDF too.

If I get it (depends on what they are willing to fix vs. what they won't budge on), then I will definitely wait for an errata. The cost for mystic adepts to buy power points is one of the things they are looking at, and that alone would be a huge change.

Good thing DriveThru is great about handling updates to PDFs that you've bought through them. I don't know why Battleshop is weird about letting a user redownload a file they've bought, and restricts the number of times it can be downloaded though I would guess it's because they don't want to pay the higher hosting cost to support it.

Yeah, that's why I always shop through DTRPG.

As an aside, I have to say that I like so much more of what I see than I don't like. In fact, the only thing I've found in the rules that I don't like is the lack of a distinction between wireless bonuses and bonuses that just require a DNI, which seems to derive from an elimination of the entire DNI game mechanic. Beyond that, I like the initiative changes, the recoil changes, the migration of battle rifles and sporting rifles into just being sniper rifles, that the guns bring their own balance of damage, AP, accuracy, and recoil compensation, and the changes to vehicle stats.

I'll have to play some to say for sure, but all in all, since I've spent the last 24 years playing trigger-pullers and necksteppers, who have always been the system's whipping boys, I'm happier with it than any of the previews made me.

My combo for important books is English PDF + German book (independently of errata), will probably be the same this time around.

It's a limit of the software they're using. The files are always on their site, so it doesn't effect hosting costs or anything. I'm hoping that will change at some point in the future.

I hope the official errata comes out quickly, but I'm expecting the revised will be in about a year or so. Or, if it sells well, with the second printing, which might be in six months or so.

My actual answer is "I already pre-ordered". I might get a later printing in a year or two.

I learned that lesson when my hard-drive went kablooey. All my DTRPG stuff was easy as pie to re-download. Battleshop... not so much.

There won;t be a "Revised" anytime soon. That's usually something done a couple years down the line to fix semi-major problems without doing a complete edition overhaul.

The second printing should incorporate any and all errata into it. ANd hopefully the errata should be released soon, as it's something that's being feverishly collected, looked over, and discussed and has been for a while now.

It should be a simple matter to contact Battleshop and request they enable your downloads again. Might take a few days.

Unfortunatly, Battleshops software is currently... limited. Which is why downloads expire. It's something that's in the works to be overhauled, but that's no simple and quick task.

And those of us who are waiting don't care.

Bull, does that mean the $300+ LEs are going to have the same basic proofing and errata problems the PDF does now?

Waiting for the errata. The LE looks cool, but even if I had the money for it, I don't support sloppy editing.

I would bet good money on it.

And those who order the LE are doing just that. *sigh*

Yeah, it bothers me a bit whenever a special collector's edition comes out based on the first printing. Those, more than anything, should wait for at least one round of errata.

But, I'm of the mind that a game system should get either a public beta or a PDF release prior to being shipped to the printer to allow for errata to be collected prior to that first print run.

Yeah, I'm not paying money for it until the errata actually arrives.

kinda like Eclipse Phase is doing you mean?

Wait. You guys want the collector's editions errata-fixed? You mean you actually intend to PLAY out of the collector's editions? This is just me talking, and I completely don't represent CGL in any way, shape, form, or fashion with this, but I've gotta tell you: You're daft. That's the most absurd notion I've heard in a long time.

You buy collector's editions to look pretty on the shelf, show off to your friends, and get people to sign at conventions. They're yearbooks, not something you're going to actively use for playing.

Sorry, but this particular gripe is one of the most non-sensical you guys have ever come up with.

Well, we were planning to PLAY out of the standard edition, but that's taking some rewriting.

But the assumption no one is going to use a collector edition is not entirely true either. I had one GM who liked to show off by his Collector versions of the game books, he had two of everything - one for 'The Wall' and off limits in their pristine state and the other collectable edition for normal use. He did a lot of computer work so had a decent income to burn.

I agree it's a bit late to be calling for the errata to go in the collector edition at this stage without a massive set back in delivery time. Hopefully the errata will offer a nice red leather binder to go in.

Some people only buy one book, and actually use it.

Wait, are you seriously trying to argue that the book your employer wants to charge $200 for doesn't need to actually be usable?


This is something you're listed as a proofreader on, man. Do you have no pride in your work?

If you wanna use it, be my guest. But yeah, I'm seriously suggesting that the LE belongs on a shelf, to be taken down for cons and such, and generally used to show off. I don't have a whole lot of use for collector's editions, myself. As I said in my initial response, that's my opinion. You don't have to share it.

I'm a contractor, technically. They aren't my employer, per se.

Oh, and yes, I have an enormous amount of pride in my work; thanks for the cheap shot. I know the things that got caught, and I know some of the things I missed. I'm honked off about the latter, but it happens, and I personally took the lead to get things started on fixing the things we missed. We've had this conversation on this forum a lot lately, and I'm not going to repeat it all. I only responded at all because you took a shot I'd normally consider beneath you.

It was an honest question, not a cheap shot. It boggled my mind you hear someone with writing and proofing credits on a (quite expensive even at RPG standards) sourcebook just shrugging it off as not intended to be used.

I mean, at that point, why bother printing actual rules in it in the first place?

Once again, this is Patrick speaking for himself, and in no way as a representative of Catalyst Game Labs.

I don't do marketing, Wraith, and I don't make any of the decisions that go into putting them together. If it was me, these wouldn't even be a thing because I, as a person, think they're a complete waste of time. Yes, I think they're pretty. If I were to buy something like this, though, it damn sure wouldn't be used for play.

It says right on the label it's a collector's edition. The simple implication in those two words is that they're meant for, well, collectors. The very name suggests that they're not for actual use. Perhaps I just know very different collectors than you do, but I've never known many collectors who actively use the pieces in their collections. Take 'em down, show 'em off, sure, but really use them? Not the collectors I know. Maybe, like I said, you know a different class of collector.

I've certainly never played with any of my Collector's Editions of games. It was never because I knew they were loaded with mistakes, but rather because I didn't want to get Mountain Dew and Cheetos (though lately it's brie rind and white wine since getting old is weird) on them. I guess they are kind of a time capsule of what the game was launched as, compared to the PDFs that I actually use and ideally can get updated with every iteration of the FAQ and errata.

I don't expect things to be perfect. I've spent too long writing software and installing hardware to think that nothing slips through internal testing or operational qualifications based on obscure corner cases. However, in places where habitual errors have become a running joke, and verification is (assuming the mechanics used to generate the characters are supplied) simple and easy, I expect those to be right.

On the whole, I'm still glad I bought the PDF, and I'm wishing I'd gotten the giant Mayan Sun Disk Limited Edition, but all I really want is to see the errata get published by CGL in time for Gencon, with an updated PDF to go with it. I know that updating documents to reflect Errata and FAQ items is a pure expense, since it is work done (technically) entirely in support of previous sales, so when budgets get tight, it's the sort of thing that goes on the chopping block. At the same time, it's a marketing expense that convinces borderline customers of the company's commitment to delivering quality products that can win back over those borderline customers.

As someone who's owned a bunch of LE's over the years (The SR2 Hardback, SR3, SR4, and SR4A, Deadlands Leather bound, Mutants & Masterminds 2nd edition LE, and the In Nomine white "Angelic" version), every one is always a 1st printing. Which means no errata. ANd hell, most books I own have never had a second printing to incorporate errata.

This doesn't excuse the necessity of needing it, by any means. It sucks. But it is what it is.

Also, I've known a few people who actually used their BABY's as their main play books. Even someone who took hers to get it signed by everyone and their dog at every convention, and stil played with it. (It made me cry to see how beat up that thing got).

As for public prerelease PDF stuff... That works for some companies, especially smaller, privately owned companies and games. I've been told that even if we'd wanted to do it, that it's not possible with Shadowrun (keep in mind CGL doesn't have free reign to do anything it wants. Topps has to approve stuff.) I dunno all the details, I'm just a peon who does what he's told.

Bull

Also, yeah. I never play with my LE's, as I said above. I take them to conventions to get signed, get sketches in, etc, and largely use them as a yearbook and as DWC said, a time capsule of sorts. They're fun to look through and show off a couple eyars down the line and see all the fun stuff people write in them.

I'll buy the German edition, so count me among the "later edition with Errata worked in" crowd.

That said, I don't game with my LE either, though I do use them to look up the odd rules thing at home, where they sit on my gaming shelf. I mostly use PDFs by now thanks to usability and the weight of one tablet versus 50 kg of books.

Yeah, I do NOT miss the days when I had to lug a backpack filled with books around a Con because I was GMing.

Hmmm whenever I run missions at a con I find myself bringing the milk-crate full of SR4A and company in books.

Yup I have the PDFs on my laptop, and another copy on my android tablet, but finding stuff in the books just seems faster.

This edition with indexes at the back of the pdf that actually go to the pages? May actually change that.

Of course this year my convention schedule is to finish up year 4 with the same crew of 6-10 players that show up to the local Chicago conventions. Maybe I can convince them to convert to SR5 faster than I had planned... one book to lug around might be worth it.

Placement memorization. With a PDF you need a page number to jump close to where you want. With a book you just need to remember approximate location.

Oh yes ... my back was so happy last month at Hamburg NordCon ... plus, you'll never forget a character sheet or anything, unless of course you forget the entire tablet. But who does such a thing.

I'm getting an LE (if I can get the money before they sell out...stupid conventions). I mean this thing doesn't seem to have a tenth the issues that the original 4th Edition did and I never played out of anything but my BABY for that edition.

Well, and PDFs...I'm not COMPLETELY crazy...

I absolutely play out of the best version of any book I have. My players can touch the standard model. I'll buy the classy, leather bound version of a book I love every time. And if it gets destroyed, I'll buy another.

Also, if I care enough about a product to want it made of high grade materials, then I also want the content to be as perfect as possible.

Like Paizo?

Paizo is a bit of a special case. And at the time they were still kinda small, and what they were doing was more marketing than anything else, since they were trying to grab the old D&D 3.X market share.

Plus, they own the pathfinder game and are using the OGL stuff that's widely available, so there's no contract concerns to worry about.

I'm not saying it's a bad way to do it. There's arguments for (improved visibility, marketing, crowdsourcing a certain amount of playtesting and editing, etc), and arguments against (primarily financial concerns, the old "if you give it away for free, why would anyone buy it" thing), and both have some merits. At the end of the day, not my call to make. And not Jason's, or anyone else who was actually involved with writing or editing or anything else. That's an issue between upper management and Topps.

Bull

That's what CTRL-f is for.

Well, FFG did that with Only War too, and they own neither the IP, nor do they have an easy IP partner, to say the least ... though I don't quite know how that worked out for the game in the end.

I don't either, but I do know that the book was fantastic.