@Ren
I also opened a Thread in the German Pegasus Forum
This thread is now about 10 Pages Thick.
Should I ask for a few condensed & translated Posts
that I could copy and Paste here so that you get some Info and feedback from Germany too ?

HokaHey
Medicineman

Wouldn't mind reading those as well, or just put the link up to it.

for those of You that speak German (and are NOT already in the Pegasus Forum)

Here's the Link
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24...torming-thread/

As soon as I get a response from REN I'll give "Green light" for a comprimising and Translation, and when that's finisched I'll transfer it here

HokaHey
Medicineman

I'm very sorry I haven't been around. Yes, that would be great if you could show me what the Germans are saying.

You could say vee hav vays of making dem talk.

or post at least.

*Shakes Head*
"Should ve be looking for das blinking lights, too"

@ Ren
I just started a new Thread to condense,rinse & repeat our threat at Pegasus, than we'll translate it and I can copy and paste it here .
I hope this'll work out

HokaHey
Medicineman

Sounds great! I'm looking forward to reading it!

OK, this is Some Ideas of new Echoes
put together by some of the Users over at Pegasus and translated by Rolosch:
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24...os/#entry429696
-------------------------------------------------

Tons of text incoming!! Proceed with caution!!


Idea Echo Emulation
dt. Programmslots, I thought emulation fitted better for this Echo than the original Emulation Echo by Zukkel
by Sandorian
Concept Echo that allows TM to emulate programs to close a huge gap between TM and Decker
Proof of Concept Programs - especially with data trails - added a huge gap between TM and Decker. To close this gap the obvious solution is to allow TM to emulate programs.
Pro Easy to handle, this is what complex forms in SR4A had been
Con Makes TM and Decker much more similar, this is what complex forms in SR4A had been so I assume this change was very much intended.
Balancing negative dice pool modifier per emulated program
Alternative Instead of an echo use a sustained complex form, this was how it was solved in SR4A

Idea Sprite Mastership
dt. Sprite-Verbindung/Sprite Meisterschaft
by Zukkel
Concept Echo to increase the amount of unregistered sprites by one per submersion
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept for mages, this is a new and unique idea
Pro The number of sprites is one of the main limits for a TM relying on sprites
Con Very strong
Balancing Instead of one per submersion, the echo can be taken multiple times

Idea One with everything
by Wandler
Concept Echo to share marks with all sprites
Proof of Concept There are sprites without even the possiblity to get marks on non-owned icons, which makes them rather useless for many tasks. This echo could solve that
Pro There are sprites which currently are useless for many tasks where they seem to be intented for because they can not get marks on foreign icons.
Con -
Balancing Share marks only with registered sprites. Another less strong possibility instead of sharing which might be considered too strong it could be possible to "shift" a mark to a target sprite.
Alternative Simply allow TM to share marks by an errata or new "optional rule"

Idea Army of one
by Wandler
Concept Echo to explicitly allow teamwork tests in the matrix by sprites
Proof of Concept It is currently unclear if and how teamwork tests in the matrix work. This is one possibility to adress this problem
Pro Very strong, solves the dice pool differences between TM and decker
Con Very strong, pushes TM into the role of a summoner, definetly requires a ruling on teamwork tests for agents as well!
Balancing Allow teamwork tests only for registered sprites (as a new task)
Alternative Simply allow sprites to participate in teamwork tests by an errata or a new "optional rule"

Idea Paladin Sprite
by Zukkel
Concept Sprite to help with resisting matrix damage with its unique power "Castling", which absorbs the first X of all incoming matrix damage. Sleaze: L, Attack: L+1, Data Processing: L Firewall: L+2
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept for mages, this is a new and unique idea and at best can be compare to the platelet factories
Pro Deals with the problem that TM can only use hot sim VR or AR (they can boost AR ini but it is more difficult for TM than all others)
Con Difficult to balance
Balancing The X absorbed damage

Idea Manipulator Sprite
by Rolosch
Concept Sprite to lower targets matrix attributes with its unique power "reconfiguration". The sprite rolls L*2 vs Data Processing + Firewall. Each X net success allows the sprite to move one point of an attribute to another. The power needs to be sustained and the sprite can not do anything else while sustaining it. Sleaze: L+1,Data Processing: L+3, Attack: L+1, Firewall: L
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept for mages, this is a new and unique idea and at best can be compare to the platelet factories
Pro Deals with the problem that TM can only use hot sim VR or AR (they can boost AR ini but it is more difficult for TM than all others)
Con Possibly to powerful on hosts
Balancing The X of required net success, 1 is likely the best choice, maybe restrict it against hosts


Idea Tsunami
dt. Resonanz Registrierung
by Rolosch
Concept A complex form which allows the TM to get marks on multiple targets with a software+resonance[sleaze] vs firewall+intuition action. Fading: L+3
Proof of Concept Decker can get multiple marks at once against very low targets but this would allow to get one mark on multiple targets.
Pro Likely to be used against IC (multiple targets)
Con Not as easy to identify use cases for this complex form.
Balancing Limit number of targets by resonance/X (e.g. X=2), change fading

Idea Bec du Corbin
dt. Resonanter Code
by Rolosch
Concept A complex form which allows to charge up a dice pool against a single target. The TM rolls resonance+software[level] and gets +1 dice for each/the next following resonance/matrix action in this combat round.
Proof of Concept Similar to aiming for mundane combat
Pro More dice. Similar to aiming.
Con -
Balancing Limited by limits,by fading, by complex form level, by number of actions

Idea Bio/Cyberware Echos
by Nebelkrähe
Concept Further cyberware effects as echos, e.g. sleep regulator, mnenonic enhancer, simrig, smartlink
Proof of Concept Was already done for FFF, Mathematics, MMRI, Biowire
Pro -
Con -
Balancing -

Idea Hidden Signal
by Nebelkrähe
Concept Bonus dice against matrix perception when running silent
Proof of Concept -
Pro -
Con -
Balancing -

Idea Stealth
by Nebelkrähe
Concept Reduce the negative dice pool modifier for running silent by one
Proof of Concept -
Pro -
Con -
Balancing -

Idea Resonance bomb
by Nebelkrähe
Concept Similar to data bombs but more difficult to defuse for non-resonance personas, either by plain dice pool modificator
Proof of Concept Similar to data bombs
Pro -
Con -
Balancing Limit it only to work against TM, make it easier for resonance personas instead

Idea Blur
by Nebelkrähe
Concept Adds a threshold of X for matrix perception against the TM
Proof of Concept -
Pro -
Con -
Balancing variable X, 1 per times echo taken

Idea Self Sustaining Loop
by Nebelkrähe/Wandler/Others
Concept A possiblity to self sustain sustaining complex forms. This could be by the use of an echo, by misusing commlinks/decks as pendant to spell foci or with (registered) sprites
Proof of Concept Spell sustaining foci for mages are very powerful and mages even have multiple ways to achieve those effects
Pro -
Con -
Balancing karma and nuyen cost for the device to sustain the complex form



Idea Komplex Form: Copycat

by Femmex/Others
Concept A complex form that allows the Technomancer to copy a running program of a person they can see in the Matrix by rolling Software+Resonance[Level] v. Firewall+Willpower in the Matrix for X number of combat turns. The target is not aware that this action has been used against it.
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept
Pro Allows a unique way for the technomancer to use programs based on the matrix users around them
Con -
Balancing Vary the Fade value und the number of Combat turns you get per net hit



Idea Komplex Form: Snatcher
by Femmex/Rolosch/Others
Concept Similar to Copycat, snatcher is a complex form that steals the program used by another visible matrix user for X combat turns. The technomancer Rolls Resonance+Software[Level] v. Willpower+Firewall. In this time the slot of the Program is still in use and cannot be assigned a new program.
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept, the closest would be the crash programm action.
Pro A more aggressive version of Copycat more focused on a direct encounter with an enemy Decker.
Con -
Balancing Vary the Fade value und the number of Combat turns you get per net hit



Idea Positive Quality: Submerged Entity (needs to be a Technomancer)
by Rolosch
Concept This character has already gone through the submersion of a technomancer and may start with one of the Echos that do not need multiple submersions or other prerequisites. His natural limit of the Resonance attribute is increased by one, but may not be increased before the start of the game.
Proof of Concept There is no similar concept mages are unable to do something similar.
Pro Allows for a Technomancer to start with things like Skinlink or MMRI to better be able to fill a role like Dronomancer from the start.
Con -
Balancing The amount of karma needed to gain the Quality should either be higher than the submersion and include the costs or be lower but force you to pay the 13 Karma for the submersion seperately to vary the amount of other Qualitys such a character can take.



Idea Echo: Resonance Screech (prerequisite Resonance Scream)
by: Nebelkrähe
Concept: Based on the Echo "Resonance Scream", the Technomancer is able to utilize his deeper understanding gained through multiple submersions to increase the effect of the Resonance scream. TheResonance Screech generates noise equal to 1+Submersion Grade (so at minimum it increases Noise by 3)
Proof of Concept: There are already noise generators and jammers that are more powerfull than the normal Resonance Scream
Pro: This Echo would actually be usable even against targets that specialize in Noise reduction and therefore allow a greater flexibility, since one can decide between this version and the normal 2 noise version as it also affects the Technomancer himself.
Con: May at a point very very far into the career of the technomancer allow him to shut down any actual matrix when used in conjunction with a normal jammer.
Balancing: Maybe make the noise non compatible with the noise of a jammer and maybe change the normal Resonance Scream to this version to make it something more easily accessible without investing a ton of karma.





Idea Echo: Soundless (prerequisite Quiet)
by: Nebelkrähe/Rolosch
Concept: Based on the Echo "Quiet", the Technomancer is able to utilize his deeper understanding gained through multiple submersions to improve on the Effect of Quiet. Soundless reduces noise equal to 1+Submersion Grade (so at minimum it decreases Noise by 3)
Proof of Concept: There are many ways to reduce noise that do not break the game for deckers, but many are very invasive (Datajack+Antannae)
Pro: A viable non invasive method of Noise reduction that is not limited to a target you know the position of and is still capable of being used in a high noise area after sufficient submersions especially for Technomancer that wish to remain "pure"

Con: Could in combination with the invasive methods make even insane amounts of noise a non issue for the Technomancer.
Balancing: Maybe change the normal "Quiet" to this version to make it more accessible. The increased cost of each submersion should provide a sufficient natural cap on this without further interfering as very invasive measures reduce the amount of submersions a character can undertake and therefore also limit the strength of this power.





Idea Echo: Resonant Master
by: Many people
Concept: Allows the Technomancer to achieve a Master-Slave connection with up to Resonance Devices
Proof of Concept: PAN
Pro: Allows the technomancer to be the person that protects the team from matrix threats more easily/directly
Con: A specialised technomancer may achieve Firewell ratings that are almost impenetrable compared to all but the strongest of Decks.
Balancing: A technomancer can easily achieve high Firewall rating by ignoring other stats, therefore the limit of a Firewall that is linked to a technomancer should maybe be tied to his resonance+X.





Idea Echo: Resonant Network
by: Nebelkrähe
Concept: Emulates the effect of a Tak-Net
Proof of Concept: Would be the Echo version of an already existing Equipment
Pro: More support options for the Technomancer
Con: Could easily be seen as way too cheap for such an expensive piece of equipment
Balancing: Maybe make it an advanced echo based on Resonant Master or something else.





Idea Echo: Flexible Persona Upgrade
by: Many people
Concept: Allows for the use of a variable upgrade points that may be placed on any Matrix-Attribute and switched as a free action.
Proof of Concept: Current increase of matrix attributes of the Technomancer and the variable attributes of the Decker
Pro: Allows the technomancer to be more flexible and adjust himself depending on the situation.
Con: Blurs the line between Decker and Technomancer.
Balancing: Maybe force the Technomancer to restart to enact any changes as the Persona is more closely tied to his being in the Matrix than a Deck that was built with that function in mind and limit the maximum amount of points that can ba assigned to one Attribute by X (maybe 2 like the original idea).





Idea Echo: Alignement
by: Femmex
Concept: By aligning himself to the streams of the Resonance, the Technomancers resistance to the backlash of the use of resonant abilities is increased. The Technomancer can add his Submersion-Grade as Bonus dice to any tests to resist Fading.
Proof of Concept: Centering of Mages
Pro: May allow technomancers to better cope with the sometimes insane amounts of Fading that is inflicted through Complex Forms and the compiling of Sprites.
Con: -
Balancing: This Echo should be a no brainer as mages already have something like that even though many of their spells have lower Drain than the Complex forms of Technomancers.





Idea new Action: Improvisation

by: Sandorian
Concept: Through his inherent understanding of the Matrix and its code, the technomancer is able to improvise programs used by mundane Matrix users for a short duration. He declares what program he wishes to improvise, normal programs have a threshhold of 2, cyberprograms have a threshhold of 3 and rolls Resonance+Software. The duration of the improvised program is equal to [1+net hits]*10 minutes. All the rules that apply to Deckers concerning programs also apply to improvised programs used by the technomancer. The maximum amount of improvised programs that can be improvised at the same time is equal to [Logik/2] and as this process is very taxing, the fading damage taken is 3 for normal programs and 4 for cyberprograms both are resisted like normal fading damage. As a resonance action Improvise does not profit of the +2 dice from Hot Sim.
Proof of Concept: Variation of a SR4 concept
Pro: Allows the technomancer to gain some of the essential functions a program provides without needing to spend a ton of karma on something that is worth working in a stuffer shack for a week.
Con: Blurs the line between technomancers and deckers and may be active for too long as the matrix is a fast plane where one rarely stays for longer than a few minutes after the first illegal action
Balancing: Decrease the duration, limit the programs that can be chosen and/or make it a complex form.





Idea new Echo: Controller

by: many people
Concept: Similar to the subconcious connection a normal technomancer has with the matrix, this Echo has allowed the technomancer to achieve a connection to a number of Drones equal to his [Resonance] to, similar to a rigger console, issue them single or group commands as well as jump between them if he is capable of such an action. As the connection is through the resonance itself, the Noise rating that the drones suffer while connected to the Technomancer is reduced by his submersion grade. Because of the deep connection to the technomacner, the drones have the technomancers firewall and data processing, but when a drone is destroyed while linked to a Technomancer he suffers [Body of the Drone/2] (rounded down) unresisted stun damage to reflect the sudden cut in the connection.
Proof of Concept: Rigger console
Pro: Further enhances the Dronomancer to be able to handle not only single drones through rigging but multiple drones without the need of an external piece of tech.
Con: The technomancer is unable to run Autosofts on this "Riggerconsole"
Balancing: Increase feedback damage to increase the risk to the technomancer when using a high amount of drones without guarding them.





Idea for an/a Echo change/new Echo: Compatibility

by: Many

Concept: The Technomancer is able to modify his persona to use 1 normal-/hacking Cyberprogram whose algorithm he was able to replicate, switching between programs that have been replicated is a free action. The Technomancer can replicate any program algorithm provided he has seen it before and spends X karma and 1 day for the process of replication. If he has not seen it, he may roll Software+Resonance, this is a more time consuming action as he has to work out the basic framework of the code by himself and therefore takes 6 days reduced by one day per net hit with a minimum of 2 days. If a Matrix entitiy uses a program that has been replicated by the Technomancer he is instantly aware of that as he knows the subtle effects such a program has to the persona of the user.

Proof of concept: Current Echo[Program]

Pro: Allows the technomancer easier access to essential things like link lock and biofeedback.

Con: Blurs the line for one of the key differences between deckers and technomancers

Balancing: Vary the amount of karma needed for replication (probably 1 karma per program), make it an Echo that can be bought multiple times.

---------------------------------------

Hough!
Medicineman

minor things:

your manipulator sprite proof of concept text got mixed up with the paladin sprite text.

resonance bomb looks like it got cut off.

I suspect self-sustaining loop might be better translated to English as "infinite loop" (a programming term referring to a loop that has no exit conditions)

resonant master probably should say "[resonance] devices" or something like that to clarify that you're using the resonance value, not referring to a theoretical thing called a resonant device.

Very interesting read. The Palidin sprite was an interesting idea though I have to agree, x is a bit high. What about x/

My little contribution is as follows:
Resonance Shards: small bits and pieces of code native to the resonance relms that have, for one reason or another, come to the regular matrix. These pieces of code can be attached to a technomancer and enhance his or her power in some way. Some directly boost the technomancer's connection to the resonance relms, and with it, their power (power foci). Others offer a technomancer the ability to thread more complex forms without spreading themselves too thin (sustaining foci).

This essentially mirrors everything including the ability for players to now go on runs for resomongers (couldn't think of a less drek name for technomancer talismongers) for resonance shards (reagents) to turn into the foci.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
The other thing I would like to see is probably some equivalent for mentor spirits.

"Sustaining Foci" already exist in in one form, in the form of the Focused Concentration Quality. Not saying it would not be nice to have additional avenues (that are potentially cheaper), though.

Heh, made me think of trying to make up my own rules for "resonance foci" and "resonance fetishes" for technomancers to emulate all of the magical foci & fetishes the awakened have access to.

Oh darn, Ren, I don’t envy you.

The task to balance TM-vs-Decker-vs-BlueTeam is Sisyphos. All the more if you want to try that with a supplement. I got my share of number crunching, testing and tweaking to get my TM playable after 4 to 5 conversion. The cheesy conversion rules were helpful but in the end, even with bonus karma and nuyen, I had to change my character concept. I found only 3 playable builds, the Face, a Face with Technomancer Perk, the Accountant, Sprite summoner and X, and the Decker, a Decker with Technomancer Perk. I picked the decker and made my peace. But I also tested the “Endgame” and the thing is, at one point the Technomancer will still outshine the Decker. They only pushed the necessary karma up to “a shit lot you will probably never reach it go away and play something else”.

And what can I say, balancing a class with a hard cap and karma and nyuen advancement again a class with soft cap and karma only advancement(mostly) is pretty hard. Now throw in different playstyles and reward systems and it is … very, very hard. Alone the fact that as a GM you can pretty easy give and take nuyen but not karma … .


I cannot see how additional goodies can balance the problem. Maybe some optional rules to regulate the TM advancement. Optional Stuff for allegiance to something Big and hopefully friendly, pacts or whatever that gift the TMs a little startup. Something how they can get X as long they do or do not Y. Something a GM can give, a player can earn, but can also can lose. Something that is not paid with karma.

I think you mean "Sisyphean" Stern, and yes I don't think any of us envy this task.

Basically what I noticed is that, aside from maybe a satellite link, a fake deck/link and lifestyle, TMs don't NEED many things that can be bought with ¥¥¥. Foci can let them boost their power to be on par with deckers and gives them a way to spend their money aside from cool cars and stuff.

Plus, another idea I just had, gives a fix that lets them run programs.

Emulator Shard
Cost:R*10,000¥
Availability: R*4(?)
Ratings Available: 1-6
Cost to Atune/Bind: R*5 Karma
Description: Often found where there Resonance meets the Matrix these emulation shards occurs when bits of programs are dumped into the resonance realms from the matrix. They allow the Technomancer to emulate the ability of the Cyberdeck to run Cyberprograms (of both a Legal and less then legal nature). Each point of rating allows the emulating shard to mimic one additional cyberprogram. These programs are chosen by the technomancer and must still be bought. They may be switched in and out of the shard as a complex action. Programs that boost a characters ASDF attributes do NOT boost the associated meat world attribute, sorry.

What do you guys think? I'm really not super amazing at judging game balance at a glance, some of you guys are probably much better. The availability really had me stumped, I'm think it might be Restricted but I could also see it being forbidden.

Is it true, that REN is not working for CGL anymore ?
And that Echo & Mirages (the TM PDF) is put to a Stop now ?

HokaHey
Medicineman

Where are you hearing this?

They just put up a post on that other forum about the lineup on upcoming books/ ebooks and there was still a TM book in the works.

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/41641848#p41643650



Thas the reason for his question.

SYL

Wow, that is so sad as Ren seemed very keen on it.


Well, we hope Ren at least still pokes their head in here to say hi, if even just to chew the cyberfat or argue with edition was the greatest.

That doesn't sound like she will, Sendaz.

Swallowed by the Foundation.

THB: it sounds rather bitter and that the Good Bye from CGL was not done in a good mood. I wonder if there are again payment issues.

SYL

Quite possibly true, but just wanted to let her know there is always a welcome place for them here.

Yes, she has been a member since a far ways back, but she literally came walking among the lions, tigers and bears (oh my) by letting us know of her freelancer status, albeit by being gently set up by Bull and Patrick all in good fun


In any case she asked us questions aimed toward future construction of the TM material and seemed to want to listen to it all comers, something which I think a lot of us had been asking for just that, and for that she has our respect.

Indeed.

My money is on social issues, or NDA volation.

By social issues are you inferring that over the course of her research into TM's and their lot she may have gotten emotionally involved with the Toaster, which in turn led to an uncomfortable work environment?

That could explain the memo from HR circulating recently asking for all appliances to be brought down for sensitivity readjustment.

Not sure what kind of NDA violation there could be, she really never said much of anything - just collecting data.

Yeah, something like that, if by toasters you mean certain CGL authors and by emotional attachment you mean douchebroness.


You know how paranoid CGL is, especially with their authors. Open development is anathema to Hardy. Actually, given her activity in the gaming industry and on 4chan, my money's more on this than the former.

When Ren posted this, I thought that it contradicted what Bull and Critias said about CLG Policy (which is a stupid Policy IMO).

I guess they're heading to tribunals in this case, because, if they don't, if Ren was only fired, she could speak openly.

I was afraid of thais. In the SR subreddit, I mentioned this thread in one of the comments and someone else, who I believe might have been a freelancer, mentioned how their contracts stipulated they weren't supposed to do that.

I think I just got a freelancer fired

well she had this thread on both here and the shadowgrid and if it really was not supposed to happen one would have thought they would pull it there at least seeing as quite a few freelancers hang out there, but nothing was said at that time indicating it was taboo.

And if they did sack her for that, then maybe they need to rethink their gameplan a bit, because maybe taking feedback from the players is not such a bad thing.

*TJ Shrug™*

If this is what Ren got in trouble for (and I don't know that it is), and even if it happened the way you're worried (and I don't know that it is), please still don't kick yourself for it. The rule's not your fault (whether we like it or agree with it or not), and someone violating the rule (whether they meant to or not), and someone else enforcing the rule (for whatever reason), doesn't fall on you. You didn't write the rule, you didn't break the rule, you didn't report anyone for breaking the rule, and you didn't fire anyone for it.

Whoever might be at fault for whatever exactly it is that happened, it's not some random fan, okay?

mind you, there's some irony in this...

ren came here basically with the assumption she was going into the lion's den... and i'd say was treated reasonably well. i mean, we didn't roll out the red carpet or have a welcome to dumpshock party or anything, but i think she came out pretty unscathed.

turns out it was the people who warned her about us that she had to worry about. go figure.

I recall reading on the old SR4 faq sheets that this forum was thanked for the effort. At least there was a time when feedback from the fans was actually accepted and appreciated, and not just our money.

Your right. It was kind of just a knee jerk reaction. Probably had nothing to do with it.