Full Version: Web Site Help / SR4 Character Generator?
All cyberlimbs start with a Body, Agility, and Strength of 3 enhanced by cyberware enhancments (for purchase) in ratings 1 through 7.
Right, but how does that affect overall Body, Agility, and Strength? Is it confined to the limb only? Is it averaged into the other values like SR3 suggested?
~J
~J
Confined to the limb itself, as far as I can tell. It actually shows an example where a person has unbalanced limbs and uses the rating of the attacking limb for actions involving one limb and the average only when using both at the same time.
If you're working on code -- I'll start thinking about user interfaces. I think that because of the special nature of the following qualities, we're going to have to seperate them in the interface: magician, mystic adept, adept, and technomancer. Since the former three result in the availability of the magic attribute and the latter in resonance, the program is going to have to know in advance of the attributes page about those four qualities. However, the other qualities, I think could be applied afterwards.
Thoughts?
If you're working on code -- I'll start thinking about user interfaces. I think that because of the special nature of the following qualities, we're going to have to seperate them in the interface: magician, mystic adept, adept, and technomancer. Since the former three result in the availability of the magic attribute and the latter in resonance, the program is going to have to know in advance of the attributes page about those four qualities. However, the other qualities, I think could be applied afterwards.
Thoughts?
Well, I'm just prototyping—doing anything serious without a solid plan would be silly, and I'd prefer to wait on the PDF so we can get solid input from the others. That said:
I don't like the idea of making the user choose magical ability at the start of chargen. It worked better with SR3, where it was much more solidly all-or-nothing—you either were a mage/shaman/adept with a full six points of magic (minus loss), or you were a full Otaku with all the advantages and disadvantages entailed, or you were a mundane. In SR4, it makes much more sense to toss on magic as a quality late in the process.
I haven't gotten really in-depth with Tk, so I don't know how dynamic we can get, but a field and some tabs that don't appear unless you pick those qualities might be the way to go.
~J
I don't like the idea of making the user choose magical ability at the start of chargen. It worked better with SR3, where it was much more solidly all-or-nothing—you either were a mage/shaman/adept with a full six points of magic (minus loss), or you were a full Otaku with all the advantages and disadvantages entailed, or you were a mundane. In SR4, it makes much more sense to toss on magic as a quality late in the process.
I haven't gotten really in-depth with Tk, so I don't know how dynamic we can get, but a field and some tabs that don't appear unless you pick those qualities might be the way to go.
~J
Sounds fine. I'm still just playing with python at this point anyway. I thought you were using the information that abouts on the boards to do some preliminary work.
Like I say, I've been prototyping.
Are there any other attributes that have partial effects like that, or is that a special effect for cyberlimbs and strength/body/agility?
~J
Are there any other attributes that have partial effects like that, or is that a special effect for cyberlimbs and strength/body/agility?
~J
That's it for the limbs as far as I can tell. I might start prototyping some screens up wither with Flash or Konfabulator, as well.
Hmm… while it's definitely outside of the scope of our project until we hit 1.0, if we got an artist to make some sample character images in something like SVG that could be a good way to display different strengths for different limbs visually, as well as adding extra flavour.
That's way down the road, though.
~J
That's way down the road, though.
~J
Yeah 
I'd be happy if we could just show the SR4 logo when the program loads!
I'd be happy if we could just show the SR4 logo when the program loads!
| QUOTE (Dashifen @ Aug 20 2005, 05:13 AM) |
| -- thanks Fortune for the inspiration for one of them -- |
No problem.
I want details though. I am currently not using Firefox, so I can't see the quote box.
It's you're signature Always like that one, I have. I had actually forgotten about that in IE, so I'll have to try and get back to fixing the placement of the quote box of that browser.
Always like that one, I have. I had actually forgotten about that in IE, so I'll have to try and get back to fixing the placement of the quote box of that browser.
I thought that might have been the case. 
I really need to install Firefox. I d/l'ed it almost 6 months ago and still haven't gotten around to doing anything more.
I really need to install Firefox. I d/l'ed it almost 6 months ago and still haven't gotten around to doing anything more.
FireFox's real power is the extensions. If you install it and just leave it alone you've essentially got IE with tabs (don't get me wrong, I've got 8 tabs open right now so I'm totally addicted). But, if you start finding extensions you like with FireFox you can easily create a very personalized browser for yourself and your needs which just isn't really possible with other software. That's the real benefit. That and you can see my quote box. Obviously, that 
Real Men use Lynx.
Real Roleplayers use Safari.
Loonies use Netscape 4 or Mosaic.
Munchkins use Internet Explorer.
~J
Real Roleplayers use Safari.
Loonies use Netscape 4 or Mosaic.
Munchkins use Internet Explorer.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 1 2005, 12:33 AM) |
| Munchkins use Internet Explorer. |
Ah, so I have been doing it right all along.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I want details though. I am currently not using Firefox, so I can't see the quote box. |
Fixed it. Never knew that IE didn't respond will to position: relative when using negative positioning before ....
Woot I can see the quotes now.
Hey Dash if I gave you the wrong person attached to a quote can you change it?
Hey Dash if I gave you the wrong person attached to a quote can you change it?
Hey, coming to this discussion a little late it seems.
For what it's worth I suggest keeping your datafiles both simple (CSV or similar) and freely available. I can't tell you how much help it was to me on my SR3 Excel project to not have to key in every bloody piece of equipment by hand. I was able to take it directly out of someone else's Filemaker Pro database a number of years ago. It's been a while, but seems like I was able to extract information reasonably easily from SRCG3's datafiles as well.
A community-based project to key-in equipment, spell, and other table-based information seems essential. And it seems essential to keep such tables freely available for any project that happens to come along.
Thoughts on this?
For what it's worth I suggest keeping your datafiles both simple (CSV or similar) and freely available. I can't tell you how much help it was to me on my SR3 Excel project to not have to key in every bloody piece of equipment by hand. I was able to take it directly out of someone else's Filemaker Pro database a number of years ago. It's been a while, but seems like I was able to extract information reasonably easily from SRCG3's datafiles as well.
A community-based project to key-in equipment, spell, and other table-based information seems essential. And it seems essential to keep such tables freely available for any project that happens to come along.
Thoughts on this?
We're going with XML (written sensibly for readability) and will have a published scheme available for reference. I by all means intend for it to be usable by anyone else who wants to work with the files.
Well, the book's out and it's time to start thinking about design. Who on the project has the book (PDF or physical) and who needs a summarized copy of the chargen rules for design purposes?
We also need to legitimately think of a name. If this ends up being SR4CG, I will need to throw myself off of something tall.
(Don't mind me)
~J
Well, the book's out and it's time to start thinking about design. Who on the project has the book (PDF or physical) and who needs a summarized copy of the chargen rules for design purposes?
We also need to legitimately think of a name. If this ends up being SR4CG, I will need to throw myself off of something tall.
(Don't mind me)
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| We're going with XML (written sensibly for readability) and will have a published scheme available for reference. I by all means intend for it to be usable by anyone else who wants to work with the files. |
Just as an observer here of course, but do you really think that the average joe Shadowrun enthusiast will be interested in keying in tables of information in raw XML? Well-formed no less? =) I'm sure you've thought this through some, so I'm wondering what you're expecting to happen.
Consider the benefits of using a CSV (or Hell, even Excel .WKS) file format for submissions. Anyone could contribute. Afterwards, anyone would be able to take the files and use them for whatever purpose. They could easily be massaged with a simple text editor. If they start out as XML files, well, in my opinion you've just introduced a bunch of unnecessary characters that have to be removed. I'm thinking of myself trying to get these into a useable Excel lookup format from XML. Ug.
I'll manage either way, but thought I'd add another voice to the discussion.
My intention is to have templates already available for data entry.
| QUOTE |
| Consider the benefits of using a CSV |
Certainly.
| QUOTE |
| (or Hell, even Excel .WKS) |
Totally unacceptable.
| QUOTE |
| Anyone could contribute. |
That's true of this.
| QUOTE |
| Afterwards, anyone would be able to take the files and use them for whatever purpose. |
That's true of this.
| QUOTE |
| They could easily be massaged with a simple text editor. |
That's true of this.
| QUOTE |
| If they start out as XML files, well, in my opinion you've just introduced a bunch of unnecessary characters |
This is arguable but not important enough for consideration IMO. If speed were that much of an issue I think the first step would be dropping Python for something not interpreted.
| QUOTE |
| that have to be removed. |
XSLT.
| QUOTE |
| I'm thinking of myself trying to get these into a useable Excel lookup format from XML. Ug. |
XSLT.
You're correct, this has been thought about.
~J
As far as an acronym, how about VIrtual Character Engine 4, or VICE 4?
| QUOTE |
| "(or Hell, even Excel .WKS)" Totally unacceptable. |
Well, insert open source spreadsheet of choice for the word "Excel" then. =) I don't know about you, but it's a hell of a lot easier for me to key in tabular data in a program designed for it.
| QUOTE |
| "Anyone could contribute." That's true of this. "Afterwards, anyone would be able to take the files and use them for whatever purpose." That's true of this. |
I think you are overestimating the XML proficiency of the average SR enthusiast. Anyway, not wanting to argue. Just some thoughts that came too late to the table. =) Have a good one.
Sorry, that came off as snippier than was deserved. Stress from my personal life and from SR4 is compounding to shorten my fuse, might be time for a vacation. Or something. Probably something.
In any event, the basic idea is that we'll have a template including all of the actual XML (or everything that we can provide) and the volunteers will just have to provide the values. Worst-case scenario, I take a few days and write something to convert input to XML properly.
~J
In any event, the basic idea is that we'll have a template including all of the actual XML (or everything that we can provide) and the volunteers will just have to provide the values. Worst-case scenario, I take a few days and write something to convert input to XML properly.
~J
Ok, I think Dashifen and I have worked out a basic plan.
Our first functional "release" will be alpha and usable only in the strict sense of the word. Functionality:
Basic class structure proposal for defining a basic character:
Attribute
Skill
Character
Awakened(Character)
Technomancer(Character)
I'll post more details on them shortly (no code, but variable names, method declarations, and commenting). In the meantime, anyone see anything I've missed?
~J
Our first functional "release" will be alpha and usable only in the strict sense of the word. Functionality:
- Generate a valid character with 400 build points, allowing purchasing of Skills, Skill Groups, Specialization, Knowledge Skills, Attributes, a limited subset of Qualities, Contacts, Spells, and Resources
- Support Qualities that alter Skills and Attributes (eg Adept, Technomancer, Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute, Infirm, possibly Incompetence)
- Support for merging/splitting skill groups
- Gear will, for this release, just be a text field.
- Spells will be purchasable but will largely be given the text-field treatment during this release as well.
- Save character to valid XML datafile.
Basic class structure proposal for defining a basic character:
Attribute
Skill
Character
Awakened(Character)
Technomancer(Character)
I'll post more details on them shortly (no code, but variable names, method declarations, and commenting). In the meantime, anyone see anything I've missed?
~J
I'll speak for Kagetenshi when I say this, but we'll post the XML declaration for a character when we get it, that way if there are any XSLT gurus out there who want to start pre-planning sheets based on our XML, they can do so.
And, for those unfamiliar with python syntax, the Awakened(Character) and Technomancer(Character) indicates that Awakened and Technomancer classes will inherit from the basic mundane character.
And, for those unfamiliar with python syntax, the Awakened(Character) and Technomancer(Character) indicates that Awakened and Technomancer classes will inherit from the basic mundane character.
Yep, that's correct. The default initial charsheet will be built to display to my personal preferred sheet style (something like this, which is my initial mockup of the Combat Mage sample character with some made-up names) but we'll be offering XSLT to strip the punctuation for people who like tabled styles or to strip the tags for those who prefer to wind up with plain text.
For anyone digging into the source of that sheet, note that it isn't complete—the gear tags in particular are rough. I'll post a sheet that'll be a proposed final for alpha 1 in a bit.
~J
For anyone digging into the source of that sheet, note that it isn't complete—the gear tags in particular are rough. I'll post a sheet that'll be a proposed final for alpha 1 in a bit.
~J
Fiddling with CSS. With any luck will have some more formatted results by the end of the weekend. Keep me posted on gear tags.
The gear tags will probably not be solidified until we get to that section of the generator. That said, the basic form is probably correct as-is… most gear just <gear type="geartype goes here"><name>Stuff Rating <rating>2</rating> (x<number>20</number> (<feature>concealable holster</feature>)</gear>, with certain special compound items like Commlinks getting their own special tagsets.
(You know, XML would be so much less wasteful if it'd just allow </> to close the last-opened tag and rely on the writer to make sure it's used appropriately)
I'm going to try XMLifying the rest of the sample characters to hammer some of that stuff down.
~J
(You know, XML would be so much less wasteful if it'd just allow </> to close the last-opened tag and rely on the writer to make sure it's used appropriately)
I'm going to try XMLifying the rest of the sample characters to hammer some of that stuff down.
~J
Mmk. I need some opinions on the following question regarding the XML representation: do firearms merit their own tags?
For most items I'm just using <gear type="geartype">, etc. With firearms, that gets verbose quickly (not that XML in general doesn't).
What I have:
For most items I'm just using <gear type="geartype">, etc. With firearms, that gets verbose quickly (not that XML in general doesn't).
What I have:
| CODE |
| <firearm type="heavy pistol" skill="pistol" price=""> <name></name> <damagecode> <number></number>><type></type>(<special></special>) AP <ap></ap> </damagecode> <firingmode><type></type></firingmode> <recoilcomp></recoilcomp> <ammo><number></number>(<type></type>)</ammo> <description> </description> </firearm> |
The other option is
| CODE |
| <gear type="firearm" class="heavy pistol" skill="pistol" price=""> <name></name> <damagecode> <number></number>><type></type>(<special></special>) AP <ap></ap> </damagecode> <firingmode><type></type></firingmode> <recoilcomp></recoilcomp> <ammo><number></number>(<type></type>)</ammo> <description> </description> </gear> |
I'm leaning towards the first, what with how common the stuff will be.
Also, does anyone have any suggestions or questions about the format above? A few samples below:
| CODE |
| <firearm type="taser" skill="pistol" price="150"> <name>Defiance EX Shocker</name> <damagecode> <number>8</number><type>S</type>(<special>e</special>) AP <ap>-half</ap> </damagecode> <firingmode><type>SS</type></firingmode> <recoilcomp></recoilcomp> <ammo><number>4</number>(<type>m</type>)</ammo> <description> </description> </firearm> <firearm type="taser" skill="pistol" price="150"> <name>Yamaha Pulsar</name> <damagecode> <damage>6</damage><type>S</type>(<special>e</special>) AP <ap>-half</ap> </damagecode> <firingmode><type>SA</type></firingmode> <recoilcomp></recoilcomp> <ammo><number>4</number>(<type>m</type>)</ammo> <description> </description> </firearm> <firearm type="holdout" skill="pistol" price="350"> <name>Raecor Sting</name> <damagecode> <number>6</number>><type>S</type>(<special>f</special>) AP <ap>2</ap> </damagecode> <firingmode><type>SS</type></firingmode> <recoilcomp></recoilcomp> <ammo><number>5</number>(<type>c</type>)</ammo> <description> </description> </firearm> |
The last thing I need is a volunteer for data entry. I'm going through with a bunch of templates and filling in the name, type, and skill, but beyond that I'm going to let someone else take over if they're willing. It should be relatively self-explanitory, let me know if you have any questions.
~J
(Yes, we know it's verbose. We can always shorten the tags later, right now clarity is the most important thing.)
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