The description of the -2 dice penalty for physical, non-magical actions (SR4A p. 191) that comes while astrally perceiving doesn't explicitly say why this penalty is accrued. It has been opined on DS that it comes from the confusing, distracting, contradicting images from both astral and physical spaces.
The Adept power Multi-Tasking (SM, p. 178) allows the possessor to "simultaneously process information from multiple senses." Examples are given that show the Adept providing full attention to multiple sources of information.
What are people's thoughts on whether Multi-Tasking overcomes the -2 penalty for astral perception?
Near as I can tell, no FAQ or errata address this idea.
Full Version: Dual nature dice penalty and Adept power Multi-tTasking
The penalty is because you are acting on the physical, while perceiving the astral. You do not actually see, hear, etc on the physical - thus the penalty.
Those who perceive both simultaneously (creatures with the Dual Natured power) do not suffer this penalty to physical actions because they can still perceive the physical plane.
Multitasking will not negate the penalty to physical actions for astrally perceiving.
Those who perceive both simultaneously (creatures with the Dual Natured power) do not suffer this penalty to physical actions because they can still perceive the physical plane.
Multitasking will not negate the penalty to physical actions for astrally perceiving.
QUOTE (Custom Metamagics)
Dual Perception (Adept, Magician)
Initiates with Dual Perception are capable of perceiving both the Astral & Physical planes simultaneously. While using Astral Perception, they may continue to use physical perception normally (including augmented reality, but not virtual reality), & do not suffer the -2 penalty to physical actions.
This metamagic may be taken only by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Initiates with Dual Perception are capable of perceiving both the Astral & Physical planes simultaneously. While using Astral Perception, they may continue to use physical perception normally (including augmented reality, but not virtual reality), & do not suffer the -2 penalty to physical actions.
This metamagic may be taken only by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Just take Heightened Concentration. It is .5 more than Multitasking but 1000x more useful. It is arguably the best/most flexible adept power besides Increased Reflexes.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Mar 31 2010, 06:51 AM) 
Just take Heightened Concentration. It is .5 more than Multitasking but 1000x more useful. It is arguably the best/most flexible adept power besides Increased Reflexes.
Does somebody know how long this power works? Always on?
While the wording is awful for the power's description, it seems the intent is to exchange a Complex Action to negate a single penalty on a single test. Otherwise there's no real reason to mention how long it takes to activate the power.
If I had done my research properly, then reading the following from pg. 191 of SR4A would have obviated the necessity for this thread:
"It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail)." (emphasis mine)
Duh.
As an aside, Muspellsheimr, where might I find a listing of those "custom metamagics"?
"It takes a Simple Action to shift
one’s perception from the astral to the physical, and another to
shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time,
though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the
astral, albeit without detail)." (emphasis mine)
Duh.
As an aside, Muspellsheimr, where might I find a listing of those "custom metamagics"?
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 31 2010, 02:40 PM)
As an aside, Muspellsheimr, where might I find a listing of those "custom metamagics"?
I believe that his mention of it being 'custom' means that he, Muspellsheimr, created it.
QUOTE (Custom Metamagics)
Metamagic Techniques
Dual Perception (Adept, Magician)
Initiates with Dual Perception are capable of perceiving both the Astral & Physical planes simultaneously. While using Astral Perception, they may continue to use physical perception normally (including augmented reality, but not virtual reality), & do not suffer the -2 penalty to physical actions.
This metamagic may be taken only by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Insight (Adept, Magician)
Choose a single Magical Active Skill. Increase that skills rating by one-half your Initiate Grade (round up). This is subject to the normal limits on augmented skill maximums.
This metamagic may be taken multiple times; it does not stack. Each time it is taken, choose a new Magical Active Skill.
Weaving (Magician)
Prerequisite: Quickening
Weaving allows an initiate to alter their spells to temporarily sustain themselves. To use Weaving, the initiate must take a Complex Action to adjust one of their active spells to sustain itself. Once done, the caster no longer suffers sustaining penalties for that spell, & can no longer dismiss the spell or (in the case of Area effects) change its location; the spell may be dispelled as normal (see Dispelling Sustained Spells, p.176 SR4). The spell will end after Magic minutes, after which time, the initiate must recast the spell if they wish to retain its effects.
An initiate may have a number of spells sustained in this way at one time equal to one half Initiate Grade (round up).
Astral Shift (Adept, Magician)
Prerequisite:, Dual Perception
Astral shift allows an initiate’s entire being - physical, mental, and spiritual - to enter the astral plane and reemerge into the physical world at a new location.
Shifting to astral space takes a Complex Action and causes (10 – Initiate Grade)S Drain. Returning to physical space takes a Complex Action.
While astrally shifted, an initiate uses all the normal rules for astral projection (p.192, SR4A), except an initiate may maintain their astral shift for up to Magic minutes. After this time, if she has not returned to her physical body, she will die and her astral form will dissipate.
This metamagic may only be taken by characters capable of Astral Projection.
Astral Projection (Adept)
Astral projection grants an initiate the ability to astrally project (p.192, SR4A). While astrally projecting, an initiate uses all the normal rules for astral projection, except the initiate may maintain their astral form for up to Magic minutes. After this time, if the initiate has not returned to her physical body, her astral form will die, leaving her physical body in a permanent coma.
This metamagic may only be taken by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Intensify (Magician)
Intensify allows an initiate to cast spells as an Extended Test with a time interval of Complex Action (Spellcasting) or 12 – Magic Hours (Ritual Spellcasting). The number of rolls made beyond the first cannot exceed the casters Initiate Grade, and for each roll made beyond the first, the Drain of the spell is increased by +1.
If the Magical Link (such as Line of Sight) is broken at any time during the casting, the spell fails & the caster must resist Drain for casting the spell as normal. This metamagic does not allow a caster to exceed Force hits.
Dual Perception (Adept, Magician)
Initiates with Dual Perception are capable of perceiving both the Astral & Physical planes simultaneously. While using Astral Perception, they may continue to use physical perception normally (including augmented reality, but not virtual reality), & do not suffer the -2 penalty to physical actions.
This metamagic may be taken only by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Insight (Adept, Magician)
Choose a single Magical Active Skill. Increase that skills rating by one-half your Initiate Grade (round up). This is subject to the normal limits on augmented skill maximums.
This metamagic may be taken multiple times; it does not stack. Each time it is taken, choose a new Magical Active Skill.
Weaving (Magician)
Prerequisite: Quickening
Weaving allows an initiate to alter their spells to temporarily sustain themselves. To use Weaving, the initiate must take a Complex Action to adjust one of their active spells to sustain itself. Once done, the caster no longer suffers sustaining penalties for that spell, & can no longer dismiss the spell or (in the case of Area effects) change its location; the spell may be dispelled as normal (see Dispelling Sustained Spells, p.176 SR4). The spell will end after Magic minutes, after which time, the initiate must recast the spell if they wish to retain its effects.
An initiate may have a number of spells sustained in this way at one time equal to one half Initiate Grade (round up).
Astral Shift (Adept, Magician)
Prerequisite:, Dual Perception
Astral shift allows an initiate’s entire being - physical, mental, and spiritual - to enter the astral plane and reemerge into the physical world at a new location.
Shifting to astral space takes a Complex Action and causes (10 – Initiate Grade)S Drain. Returning to physical space takes a Complex Action.
While astrally shifted, an initiate uses all the normal rules for astral projection (p.192, SR4A), except an initiate may maintain their astral shift for up to Magic minutes. After this time, if she has not returned to her physical body, she will die and her astral form will dissipate.
This metamagic may only be taken by characters capable of Astral Projection.
Astral Projection (Adept)
Astral projection grants an initiate the ability to astrally project (p.192, SR4A). While astrally projecting, an initiate uses all the normal rules for astral projection, except the initiate may maintain their astral form for up to Magic minutes. After this time, if the initiate has not returned to her physical body, her astral form will die, leaving her physical body in a permanent coma.
This metamagic may only be taken by characters capable of Astral Perception.
Intensify (Magician)
Intensify allows an initiate to cast spells as an Extended Test with a time interval of Complex Action (Spellcasting) or 12 – Magic Hours (Ritual Spellcasting). The number of rolls made beyond the first cannot exceed the casters Initiate Grade, and for each roll made beyond the first, the Drain of the spell is increased by +1.
If the Magical Link (such as Line of Sight) is broken at any time during the casting, the spell fails & the caster must resist Drain for casting the spell as normal. This metamagic does not allow a caster to exceed Force hits.
Note: These metamagics are, at this time, not fully tested. Dual Perception is fine, and I believe all others are with the possible exception of Intensify (it has quite a few downsides, & is not useful inside combat outside stealth, which is deadly anyways, but has potential to cause problems with "buff" spells or re-aplication of mental manipulations)
As with all material used in a game, I strongly suggest that any character who meets the prerequisites is allowed to take/use the material - in this case, metamagics. That said, one of the requirements for most of these in my game (Dual Perception & Astral Projection being the primary exceptions) is to acquire the metamagic formulae/technique, as they are not 'publicy available'. What, exactly, this entails is ultimately up to the GM, but I use the rules for researching new metamagics in the 'acquiring metamagics outside of initiation' section of Street Magic.
In my game, I am currently playing a magician with Astral Shift; with my absurd Logic & reasonable Arcana, as well as my backstory, is acceptable. Outside of unique circumstances, this particular one I suggest reserving for the Immortal Elves, some dragons (particlularly Greats), and other unique characters that have ties to Earthdawn. Regardless, from what I have been able to tell thus far in play & numbercrunching/theoretical senarios, it is still a reasonably balanced metamagic & should not disrupt a game if made available (it greatly increases the speed of personal travel, but is not equivalent to teleportation, and the character does not need to deal with physical barriers or gravity, but must still deal with astral barriers & drain).
Also on the subject of Astral Shift (along with the Shift & Mist Form powers), we have a rule that a character altering their form may attempt a Magic + Charisma (Object Resistance) test against each object in their possession (they must be carrying/holding/wearing the object, simply touching it is not sufficient). If successful, the object melds with their new form, becoming nonfunctional, but resumes it's normal form & location when the character shifts back.
Because it has not really come up in a significant manner yet, I have not fully flushed out the details of that ruling, but am inclined to add a modified bonus to objects based on their sympathetic connection to the character. I am currently unsure if this rule should also be used for shapeshifting through Sorcery (aka Shapechange or Critter Form spells), but am inclined to say yes.
The reason for the astral penalty is because the initiate is interacting w/ astral shadows, not because he is 'distracted.
IE: I'm using astral perception to aim the astral shadow of the gun in my hand... (and not getting any laser sight or smartgun bonuses).
As far as Muspy's custom metamagics... most of them seem a little overpowered. Especially his astral shift.
Dual perception, weaving don't strike me as too bad. I've put forward for limited astral projection as well in the past.
Intensify is very borderline in my view.
Insight is far too powerful. A lot of these continue the problem of, I'd rather have initiate grades rather than magic rating. And they effectively uncap the skills.
Astral shift is just broken... and 10drain is nowhere near enough to limit it's use. There are nowhere near enough drawbacks on that, for what all effective purposes is a teleport. (astral shortcut).
Some of the ideas I've had for custom metamagics is things such as 'Subtle spellcasting'. Normally the threshhold to notice spellcasting is 6-force. Increase that by initiate grade (or half initiate grade). Grade 4 initiate casting force 5 spell... raise the TN from 1 to 3 (half initiate grade).
IE: I'm using astral perception to aim the astral shadow of the gun in my hand... (and not getting any laser sight or smartgun bonuses).
As far as Muspy's custom metamagics... most of them seem a little overpowered. Especially his astral shift.
Dual perception, weaving don't strike me as too bad. I've put forward for limited astral projection as well in the past.
Intensify is very borderline in my view.
Insight is far too powerful. A lot of these continue the problem of, I'd rather have initiate grades rather than magic rating. And they effectively uncap the skills.
Astral shift is just broken... and 10drain is nowhere near enough to limit it's use. There are nowhere near enough drawbacks on that, for what all effective purposes is a teleport. (astral shortcut).
Some of the ideas I've had for custom metamagics is things such as 'Subtle spellcasting'. Normally the threshhold to notice spellcasting is 6-force. Increase that by initiate grade (or half initiate grade). Grade 4 initiate casting force 5 spell... raise the TN from 1 to 3 (half initiate grade).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
Intensify is very borderline in my view.
And I specifically called it out as not fully tested & possibly open to abuse.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
Insight is far too powerful.
How? Every other skill can be increased through Adept Powers, & many through augmentations.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
A lot of these continue the problem of, I'd rather have initiate grades rather than magic rating.
No more so than many of the existing metamagics. Regardless, I suppose I should have mentioned that while they should work fine with Rules as Written, they were designed to work with my House Rules (that I continually forget not everyone is aware of or has forgotten) of limiting your natural Magic attribute to Essence + Initiate Grade (maximum 7), and Initiate Grade to Magic (maximum 5).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
And they effectively uncap the skills.
And how did you reach that conclusion?
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
Astral shift is just broken... and 10drain is nowhere near enough to limit it's use. There are nowhere near enough drawbacks on that, for what all effective purposes is a teleport. (astral shortcut).
No. It does not allow the use of a Metaplanar Shortcut that spirits have access to. It is quite literally Astral Projection (and nothing more), except with a much shorter duration, significant Drain, & you get to take your physical body with you.
Yes, it allows for rapid movement for short durations. Sub-Orbitals and Semi-Ballistics are still faster. By a lot.
Yes, it allows for bypassing physical security. And makes you deal directly with astral security.
It is an advanced metamagic, requiring Dual Perception to have access to.
It requires you to spend a metamagic on it instead of something else.
It causes significant Drain.
And finally, it is one of the few I have done any real playtesting on thus far (out of theoretical scenarios), and has thus far presented no problems.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM)
Some of the ideas I've had for custom metamagics is things such as 'Subtle spellcasting'. Normally the threshhold to notice spellcasting is 6-force. Increase that by initiate grade (or half initiate grade). Grade 4 initiate casting force 5 spell... raise the TN from 1 to 3 (half initiate grade).
This is one that I have actually had the idea for for quite some time, but never actually wrote out. I suggest increasing the Threshold to notice the initiates magic by Initiate Grade.
Thanks for the list, Muspellsheimr. I have to admit, the Astral Shift scares me a bit, too. Sounds like teleportation to me. But it does spread the Invoke Guardian spirit - Endow Materialization goodness to those traditions that don't have Guardian spirits.
His Astral Shift power is just a variation of a power demonstrated to exist in the Sixth World. Harlequinn used it in either the module named after him or its sequel, Harlequinn's Back. Ehran may have used it as well, but I can't remember properly. Sure, they're immortal elves, but it's canonical proof that such a power exists and is viable in the current state of the manasphere.
Both Ehran and Harlequin used it in the last adventure of Harlequin. Well a variant of it anyway. Harlequin's Back is just one big astral quest and Ehran doesn't make an appearance in it.
You know guys, I think that mages in Shadowrun SHOULD get a teleport spell. Before anyone breaks out the torches and pitchforks hear me out. In Harry Potter (you can all stop rolling your eyes now), there are places you can not teleport into (the Ministry of Magic, Hogwarts, places with an anti-teleport spell up, & warded areas).
If a teleport spell is allowed to mages then the Corp security people would have countermeasures in place to prevent people from popping in or out. This would allow a teleport spell, but not break the game.
If a teleport spell is allowed to mages then the Corp security people would have countermeasures in place to prevent people from popping in or out. This would allow a teleport spell, but not break the game.
I am quite suprised Muspellsheimr would come up with a metamagic technique so completely against the RAW as well as RAI. I find it ironic given your knowledge of the rules.
Hey if it works for you and your concept though, more power to you.
- J.
Hey if it works for you and your concept though, more power to you.
- J.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 31 2010, 09:19 PM)
You know guys, I think that mages in Shadowrun SHOULD get a teleport spell. Before anyone breaks out the torches and pitchforks hear me out. In Harry Potter (you can all stop rolling your eyes now), there are places you can not teleport into (the Ministry of Magic, Hogwarts, places with an anti-teleport spell up, & warded areas).
If a teleport spell is allowed to mages then the Corp security people would have countermeasures in place to prevent people from popping in or out. This would allow a teleport spell, but not break the game.
If a teleport spell is allowed to mages then the Corp security people would have countermeasures in place to prevent people from popping in or out. This would allow a teleport spell, but not break the game.
Because I intend to (eventually) work out a fantasy setting using the Shadowrun 4 core rules setup, I was actually throwing around ideas for a Teleport spell, & the drafts I came up with I do not think would unbalance Shadowrun, but they really do not have any place in the setting from a fluff perspective.
For those interested, I never actually finished a writeup, but the range (Touch, Line of Sight, or Personal) was the target to be teleported, with the location to be teleported to being anywhere you have a link to (typically Line of Sight, but nearly anywhere through Ritual Spellcasting). Object Resistance for objects, & opposed test for living creatures. Wards acted as normal, adding dice to the Resistance test (keep in mind that nothing in the rules actually prevents a test from having a Threshold & being opposed, although it's not actually written out how such a test works. I go with the ruling that you make a test against the Threshold, & any Net Hits are applied to the opposed test [or vice-versa], although another valid ruling would be your test is compared to the Threshold & opposed test separately).
I think the Drain was calculated to (F÷2) + 1 for Touch, (F÷2) + 3 for Line of Sight, & (F÷2) - 1 for Personal. Using this spell, you could also theoretically make an area version, teleporting everything in the spells radius with the normal +2 Drain modifier.
I never did quite get to figuring out what Net Hits actually would do, if anything, nor how teleporting into a warded area would work. For the latter, I would work with the idea of imposing a penalty to the spellcasting test equal to the ward's Force.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:19 PM)
I am quite suprised Muspellsheimr would come up with a metamagic technique so completely against the RAW as well as RAI. I find it ironic given your knowledge of the rules.
Hey if it works for you and your concept though, more power to you.
- J.
Hey if it works for you and your concept though, more power to you.
- J.
I am assuming you are referring to Astral Shift. It is not actually against the Rules as Written for the following reasons:
- It does not "teleport" a character (teleportation being instantaneous travel between two points without crossing the intervening distance). It is not instantaneous, and you do cross the distance, just through non-physical (astral) means.
- It does not actually affect the Physical & Astral simultaneously, it is moving from one to the other. Technicality, as it is close, but good enough (compare to Materialization).
- The restrictions placed on teleportation, affecting multiple planes simultaneously, etc. in Street Magic are limitations placed on Sorcery (Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, & Counterspelling). They do not actually apply to other forms of magic, such as paranormal critter powers, spirits, or metamagic techniques.
I also have, & will continue to, clearly state that in many cases I do not like the Rules as Written, have extensive House Rules in the form of House Errata documents, & have even made these rules publicly available on Dumpshock.
It's against neither the "RAW" or "RAI." (Jesus, I hate those terms so hard.) The rules for magic specifically disallow a very specific type of teleportation effect, and then only for spells. This effect is one that has been proven to exist in the Sixth World and is completely viable. It's not also as imbalanced as people assume. Astral security is a huge concern in the game world already, and there's tons of cheap and effective countermeasures in place for it. Wards, biofiber, patrolling elementals and security mages, etc.
My only concern about it is the way he describes it, not the effect itself. First, I'd change the drain to Physical. You're basically ripping your body from the physical realm; that's going to be more than a little stun damage. I'd then reinforce the idea that any damage they suffer while astral is Physical Damage and that death is permanent. I'd also include an activation time on the effect (say one complete Combat Turn) that requires the magician's full concentration. If anything breaks that concentration, such as being attacked, being restrained, etc., the effect fails. That way magicians couldn't use it for an instant get-out-of-jail-free card. I'd also add a disorientation effect to the end effect for similar reasons. No "surprise! <manaball>" in the middle of a highly secure area.
Being able to do it on a whim and only suffering a bit of stun damage is what's breaking it more than the actual effect.
My only concern about it is the way he describes it, not the effect itself. First, I'd change the drain to Physical. You're basically ripping your body from the physical realm; that's going to be more than a little stun damage. I'd then reinforce the idea that any damage they suffer while astral is Physical Damage and that death is permanent. I'd also include an activation time on the effect (say one complete Combat Turn) that requires the magician's full concentration. If anything breaks that concentration, such as being attacked, being restrained, etc., the effect fails. That way magicians couldn't use it for an instant get-out-of-jail-free card. I'd also add a disorientation effect to the end effect for similar reasons. No "surprise! <manaball>" in the middle of a highly secure area.
Being able to do it on a whim and only suffering a bit of stun damage is what's breaking it more than the actual effect.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 1 2010, 05:37 AM)
I am assuming you are referring to Astral Shift. It is not actually against the Rules as Written for the following reasons:
I also have, & will continue to, clearly state that in many cases I do not like the Rules as Written, have extensive House Rules in the form of House Errata documents, & have even made these rules publicly available on Dumpshock.
- It does not "teleport" a character (teleportation being instantaneous travel between two points without crossing the intervening distance). It is not instantaneous, and you do cross the distance, just through non-physical (astral) means.
- It does not actually affect the Physical & Astral simultaneously, it is moving from one to the other. Technicality, as it is close, but good enough (compare to Materialization).
- The restrictions placed on teleportation, affecting multiple planes simultaneously, etc. in Street Magic are limitations placed on Sorcery (Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, & Counterspelling). They do not actually apply to other forms of magic, such as paranormal critter powers, spirits, or metamagic techniques.
I also have, & will continue to, clearly state that in many cases I do not like the Rules as Written, have extensive House Rules in the form of House Errata documents, & have even made these rules publicly available on Dumpshock.
Does the metamagic allow you to move from one point in physical space to another point in physical space? If the answer is yes, then it does break RAW. It also breaks years of established canonical material and the very spirit of which, numerous books stating the limitations of magic are well documented. Pointing to the metamagic rules as being "somehow fundamentally different" is a strawman argument. Call it Advanced Metamagic, call it an Immortal Elf Magic Trick, whatever, its done. Don't dress it up, don't misrepresent it - we just agree and move on.
Of course Rule #1 always applies, and don't think it detracts from your contributions and ideas (which I personally always value your input on - on that note, I could do with your input in my glasses thread
). I'm just stating it is a controversial ability and typically doesn't fit your typical contributions (particularly the ones where you slap down people for misunderstanding RAW). Out of curiosity, if you wanted it to just work like Materialisation, why not just find a way to make that a Metamagic ability with some restrictions? That would have been a more logical decision decision IMHO.
- J.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:52 PM)
Does the metamagic allow you to move from one point in physical space to another point in physical space? If the answer is yes, then it does break RAW.
Provide a RAW quote to support this.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:52 PM)
It also breaks years of established canonical material and the very spirit of which, numerous books stating the limitations of magic are well documented.
No. As mentioned by Dr. Funkenstein, the ability is actually cannon (although exact details may differ, it is fundamentally the same). It is also supported by similar abilities in Earthdawn (which, like it or not, is cannon Shadowrun history). Finally, I am not particularly familiar with earlier editions, but in 4th, your "limitations of magic" are actually "limitations of sorcery", and, again, do not apply to other magical abilities.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:52 PM)
Pointing to the metamagic rules as being "somehow fundamentally different" is a strawman argument.
Pointing out that metamagic techniques are not included in Sorcery (aka spellcasting), which, like spirits/conjuration & paranormal critter powers, they are not, is not a strawman argument.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:52 PM)
(particularly the ones where you slap down people for misunderstanding RAW).
I don't slap people down for misunderstanding RAW. I correct their misunderstanding, backed up with RAW quotes as necessary. When they persist in insisting their misunderstanding is in fact RAW, I slap them down for claiming a House Rule is Rules as Written.
QUOTE (The Jake @ Mar 31 2010, 10:52 PM)
Out of curiosity, if you wanted it to just work like Materialisation, why not just find a way to make that a Metamagic ability with some restrictions? That would have been a more logical decision decision IMHO.
I don't want it to work jut like Materialization. I simply used that as an example of another cannon, non-Sorcery, ability allows a transition between the astral & physical planes.
Pg 10 Street Magic:
While we’re at it, let’s get a few more things straight about
magic, specifically about what it can’t do. No matter how many
times you see it in simsense or how many friends of friends assure
you that they’ve personally witnessed it, magicians can’t
teleport. Not at all. Not even dragons (unless they aren’t telling
us something … ). They can’t time-travel, either.
pg 159
Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/
Time Continuum.
Spells cannot directly change distance or the
passage of time. Teleportation and time travel
are the holy grails of magical R&D departments
the world over, but no one has been able to unravel
the knotty problem of affecting space or
time with magic. Spells can speed up or slow
down processes, such as healing or chemical reactions,
and allow subjects to move quickly, but
they cannot directly alter time or space.
I guess it depends what one's definition of teleportation is then - because Magicians can't teleport.
While we’re at it, let’s get a few more things straight about
magic, specifically about what it can’t do. No matter how many
times you see it in simsense or how many friends of friends assure
you that they’ve personally witnessed it, magicians can’t
teleport. Not at all. Not even dragons (unless they aren’t telling
us something … ). They can’t time-travel, either.
pg 159
Sorcery Cannot Alter the Fabric of the Space/
Time Continuum.
Spells cannot directly change distance or the
passage of time. Teleportation and time travel
are the holy grails of magical R&D departments
the world over, but no one has been able to unravel
the knotty problem of affecting space or
time with magic. Spells can speed up or slow
down processes, such as healing or chemical reactions,
and allow subjects to move quickly, but
they cannot directly alter time or space.
I guess it depends what one's definition of teleportation is then - because Magicians can't teleport.
And they're not. Teleporting means getting from point A to point B instantly with no travel in between. This is, essentially, a really hardcore version of invisibility.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 1 2010, 12:15 AM)
And they're not. Teleporting means getting from point A to point B instantly. This is, essentially, a really hardcore version of invisibility.
Not necessarily. Teleportation could be traveling through a wormhole (which is instantaneous), or like Star Trek/The Fly which is limited to the speed of light, or like Nightcrawler where you pop into a different dimension then reemerge somewhere else which may or may not be instantaneous.
Whatever semantics you need to try and convince yourself is rendered completely and utterly moot by -- once again -- the simple fact that this effect exists in the game world. Additionally -- also once again -- it is not Sorcery, which is the only place the rule exists (and an in-character book, namely Magic: A Survival Guide for the Mundane, does not qualify as a rule). In fact, nearly every single spirit in the game does it one way or another. But by your logic, that can't be.
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 31 2010, 08:50 PM)
His Astral Shift power is just a variation of a power demonstrated to exist in the Sixth World. Harlequinn used it in either the module named after him or its sequel, Harlequinn's Back. Ehran may have used it as well, but I can't remember properly. Sure, they're immortal elves, but it's canonical proof that such a power exists and is viable in the current state of the manasphere.
It's because in Earthdawn, Harley was a Nethermancer and one of their higher level powers was the ability to shift fully into the Astral and back.
Nethermancers were looked upon much like you'd expect a necromancer to be looked upon in D&D by the general populace.
If Magic doesn't allow teleportation within the SR setting, then how can spirits make use of the metaplanar shortcut to effectively teleport?
The metamagic as described works much like the metaplanar shortcut except the starting point is the plane of origin for humanity (the physical).
For me, the only change I'd make to that metamagic is up the drain and perhaps tie in some sort of check. The reason being the current level of mana in the world not being high enough to easily support more advanced mysticism.
The fluff clearly indicates that magic worked BEFORE the Awakening... it was just difficult to make it do so.
The metamagic as described works much like the metaplanar shortcut except the starting point is the plane of origin for humanity (the physical).
For me, the only change I'd make to that metamagic is up the drain and perhaps tie in some sort of check. The reason being the current level of mana in the world not being high enough to easily support more advanced mysticism.
The fluff clearly indicates that magic worked BEFORE the Awakening... it was just difficult to make it do so.
QUOTE (darthmord @ Apr 1 2010, 10:58 AM)
The metamagic as described works much like the metaplanar shortcut except the starting point is the plane of origin for humanity (the physical).
To clarify: No, it doesn't. The Metaplanar Shortcut involves a Complex Action to enter a metaplane, & another Complex Action to return at any location you have been to before. The metamagic does not allow that - it allows you to travel through Astral Space, functioning like Astral Projection, except you do not leave behind any "shoes", & instead of Manifesting, you return your body to the Physical plane.
The travel is not in any way instantaneous, but can be very fast (5km per Combat Turn 'running', 100m 'walking'), and does not allow you to bypass barriers the way the Metaplanar Shortcut does - to enter a ward, you have to have access to it as normal (created, on the accepted list, Masking, or forcing your way through).
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 1 2010, 01:46 AM)
Additionally -- also once again -- it is not Sorcery, which is the only place the rule exists
The quote from page 10 of Street Magic talks about Magic, not just Sorcery.QUOTE
In fact, nearly every single spirit in the game does it one way or another. But by your logic, that can't be.
This is different from what spirits do. Spirits are not corporeal... all the Materialization power does is project the spiritual entity into the Physical plane. This metamagic takes physical matter, converts it to astral matter, and reconverts it at the end to physical matter.The arguments about the time it takes and so on making it not the same as teleportation, and about precedent among special immortals etc. are worth considering.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 1 2010, 01:35 PM)
The quote from page 10 of Street Magic talks about Magic, not just Sorcery.
The quote from page 10 is also from a fluff section. It contains no actual mechanics or rules for gameplay, and such fluff sections do intentionally contain false data on occasion.
The quote from page 10 has no relevance whatsoever to if something is allowed or not mechanically.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 1 2010, 02:49 PM)
The quote from page 10 is also from a fluff section. It contains no actual mechanics or rules for gameplay, and such fluff sections do intentionally contain false data on occasion.
The existence of Seattle is not mentioned in the mechanics sections, either. Does it therefore not exist?The elements of Newtonian physics are not described in the rules, either. Does that mean they don't apply?
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 1 2010, 02:03 PM)
No. If there are no rules, there are no mechanical effects.
There are no rules for wiping your ass. Wiping your ass has no mechanical effect.
There are no rules for wiping your ass. Wiping your ass has no mechanical effect.
Lack of rules means there is no mechanical effect. Seattle does not exist in the rules of the game (outside Knowledge skills), & so has no mechanical impact on the game (outside Knowledge skills).
The limitations of Sorcery is the mechanical effect of the described limitations of magic. It affects spellcasting. It does not affect other forms of magic.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 1 2010, 01:55 PM)
To clarify: No, it doesn't. The Metaplanar Shortcut involves a Complex Action to enter a metaplane, & another Complex Action to return at any location you have been to before. The metamagic does not allow that - it allows you to travel through Astral Space, functioning like Astral Projection, except you do not leave behind any "shoes", & instead of Manifesting, you return your body to the Physical plane.
The travel is not in any way instantaneous, but can be very fast (5km per Combat Turn 'running', 100m 'walking'), and does not allow you to bypass barriers the way the Metaplanar Shortcut does - to enter a ward, you have to have access to it as normal (created, on the accepted list, Masking, or forcing your way through).
The travel is not in any way instantaneous, but can be very fast (5km per Combat Turn 'running', 100m 'walking'), and does not allow you to bypass barriers the way the Metaplanar Shortcut does - to enter a ward, you have to have access to it as normal (created, on the accepted list, Masking, or forcing your way through).
I get you. I misspoke and was not precise enough. But the basic premise is there. You end up moving rather fast between here and there.
I guess in that vein it has more in common with the Movement Power rather than Metaplanar Shortcut except that it also involves the Astral as well. Doesn't sound broken. I would still lean toward upping the cost slightly. But if it has a pre-req metamagic, then the cost may not be low as originally thought.
The biggest issue with it, from a balance perspective, is giving you the ability to travel through physical walls, but it forces you to deal with astral barriers instead. It's also pretty powerful in a defensive aspect if the opposition doesn't have astral support, but similar "get out" abilities can be obtained through spells &/or spirits, just not quite as effective (but again, doesn't have to deal with astral support).
Just curious, what happens to your mundane gear?
I can see your focuses etc. going with you, but does your SMG and your lined coat?
I don't think its a big deal either way, just not sure what your metamagic is designed to do.
I can see your focuses etc. going with you, but does your SMG and your lined coat?
I don't think its a big deal either way, just not sure what your metamagic is designed to do.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Mar 31 2010, 04:38 PM)
Also on the subject of Astral Shift (along with the Shift & Mist Form powers), we have a rule that a character altering their form may attempt a Magic + Charisma (Object Resistance) test against each object in their possession (they must be carrying/holding/wearing the object, simply touching it is not sufficient). If successful, the object melds with their new form, becoming nonfunctional, but resumes it's normal form & location when the character shifts back.
Because it has not really come up in a significant manner yet, I have not fully flushed out the details of that ruling, but am inclined to add a modified bonus to objects based on their sympathetic connection to the character. I am currently unsure if this rule should also be used for shapeshifting through Sorcery (aka Shapechange or Critter Form spells), but am inclined to say yes.
Because it has not really come up in a significant manner yet, I have not fully flushed out the details of that ruling, but am inclined to add a modified bonus to objects based on their sympathetic connection to the character. I am currently unsure if this rule should also be used for shapeshifting through Sorcery (aka Shapechange or Critter Form spells), but am inclined to say yes.
Woops missed that, thanks.
With all due respect, the technique in earthdawn was ONLY available to very high level entropomancers or something like that. (can't remember their exact name). It was something of their capstone ability too IIRC. Even at that, I'm not sure that merely having 6 ranks in arcana is nearly enough justification for any player character. And even then only after extensive study/combat/interaction with the horrors at the height of the mana cycle IIRC.
And yes, 10s is trivial to someone stated out for it. (increase attribute, centering metamagic, etc... I've soaked 16 physical drain down to 4 from summons gone bad... 10S is definitely in the doable range especially w/ edge).
I don't see it as endowment-materialization for everyone. That still leaves an unconcious body you still need to worry about and can be tracked down.
As far as your other metas... multiple rounds of casting is borderline because that one casting roll goes against a single dice pool to resist it. The only thing which makes it even considerable is you're not casting on prior rounds while waiting for it to go off. But even then, it doesn't matter how much counterspelling you have, after 2 or 3 rounds of casting w/ a reasonable high force...
And increasing magic skills w/o limit is bad. Even the closest analogue is item attunement, and that requires additional karma expenditure. The metamagic is way too cheap compared to spending .5PP on similar combat skills and don't fool yourself that spellcasting/summoning skills aren't at least that valuable. Then lets hit another one of your favorites... multi-casting... split the dice pool... now look another modifier to add after the split from the meta. Even if treated as a skill mod subject to the cap... it's still questionable.
And yes, 10s is trivial to someone stated out for it. (increase attribute, centering metamagic, etc... I've soaked 16 physical drain down to 4 from summons gone bad... 10S is definitely in the doable range especially w/ edge).
I don't see it as endowment-materialization for everyone. That still leaves an unconcious body you still need to worry about and can be tracked down.
As far as your other metas... multiple rounds of casting is borderline because that one casting roll goes against a single dice pool to resist it. The only thing which makes it even considerable is you're not casting on prior rounds while waiting for it to go off. But even then, it doesn't matter how much counterspelling you have, after 2 or 3 rounds of casting w/ a reasonable high force...
And increasing magic skills w/o limit is bad. Even the closest analogue is item attunement, and that requires additional karma expenditure. The metamagic is way too cheap compared to spending .5PP on similar combat skills and don't fool yourself that spellcasting/summoning skills aren't at least that valuable. Then lets hit another one of your favorites... multi-casting... split the dice pool... now look another modifier to add after the split from the meta. Even if treated as a skill mod subject to the cap... it's still questionable.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 1 2010, 10:41 PM)
With all due respect, the technique in earthdawn was ONLY available to very high level entropomancers or something like that. (can't remember their exact name). It was something of their capstone ability too IIRC. Even at that, I'm not sure that merely having 6 ranks in arcana is nearly enough justification for any player character. And even then only after extensive study/combat/interaction with the horrors at the height of the mana cycle IIRC.
Nethermancers. And in a large part the reason why it was high circle was not because it was inherently hard but because while there was a lot of mana all of astral was massively polluted. It was like the entire planet was an aspected background for horrors, even though its a basic function of being a mage basic astral projection wasn't done in Earthdawn, mages couldn't just do it.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 1 2010, 07:41 PM)
And increasing magic skills w/o limit is bad. Even the closest analogue is item attunement, and that requires additional karma expenditure. The metamagic is way too cheap compared to spending .5PP on similar combat skills and don't fool yourself that spellcasting/summoning skills aren't at least that valuable. Then lets hit another one of your favorites... multi-casting... split the dice pool... now look another modifier to add after the split from the meta. Even if treated as a skill mod subject to the cap... it's still questionable.
Which quite literally says you did not actually read it. At all.
Go read the fucking metamagic - *attempt* to comprehend what it actually says - then come back & complain about it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.