Dr Genoa
Jul 28 2006, 02:10 AM
Tell me I am dumb but I thought that power foci increased your effective force level where as spellcasting foci increase the dice pool for certain casting tests.
My example being a Shaman has Magic five with a force 3 power foci thus making his effective magic 8 when the foci is on. That is how it was used in our game and how I believe it is written in the book.
Demerzel
Jul 28 2006, 03:58 AM
Well, the rule for the power focus is:
| QUOTE (Page 192) |
| Possession of a power focus feeds a magician's Magic directly, making her efforts more powerful in all forms of magical ability. A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magician's Magic is included. |
So arguably the new rule is that it only adds dice to any roll that Magic is involved in and does not increase your MAgic attribute. That is probably the correct interpretation, as it prevents someone from taking the Mystic Adept quality and being just as powerful a caster as any regular Magician. So you cannot take a Magic of 3 for spellcasting and two powerpoints of adept abilities, then use a power focus to offset the 2 missing points of Magic.
Personally I'm not sure how I'd rule on this in a game I'm GMing. I understand why the developers would want to require Mystical adepts to limit their Magic rating. A 3 in magic rating makes your max force on a spell 6, and anything over 3 is physical drain. A serious limitation. A mere 12 build points gets you a force 2 power focus and suddenly you can cast with a magic of 5 and that's a pretty big difference!
I'm still struggling with deciding if I prefer the old adding to magic as in SR3- or this new way.
As far as the gender thing goes:
Some RPGs have wierd gendered pronoun policies. It's possible here that FanPro switches genders every use of the gendered pronouns barring the cases where imidiate correlations is necessary for clarity. It's hard to please people in this respect, I remember a time when exclusive use of the male pronouns got TSR in troubble. I think starting with the "Complete Handbook of X" line TSR started switching genders on every book. So for example, the complete handbook on elves was entirely in the female, then the next was entirely int he male. Here I think FanPro probably has a requirement that they alternate frequently.
irdeggman
Jul 28 2006, 10:07 AM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
Well, the rule for the power focus is:
[QUOTE=Page 192] As far as the gender thing goes:
Some RPGs have wierd gendered pronoun policies. It's possible here that FanPro switches genders every use of the gendered pronouns barring the cases where imidiate correlations is necessary for clarity. It's hard to please people in this respect, I remember a time when exclusive use of the male pronouns got TSR in troubble. I think starting with the "Complete Handbook of X" line TSR started switching genders on every book. So for example, the complete handbook on elves was entirely in the female, then the next was entirely int he male. Here I think FanPro probably has a requirement that they alternate frequently. |
I don't have problems with changing gender when talking about different things like under elves making it male and under dwarves making it female.
The point I was making was that this occurred within the same paragraph while talking about the same character. I know that a lot of things can be done with bioware and cyberware but. . . . .
irdeggman
Jul 28 2006, 10:25 AM
| QUOTE (Dr Genoa) |
Tell me I am dumb but I thought that power foci increased your effective force level where as spellcasting foci increase the dice pool for certain casting tests.
My example being a Shaman has Magic five with a force 3 power foci thus making his effective magic 8 when the foci is on. That is how it was used in our game and how I believe it is written in the book. |
No you are not dumb, a lot of times it requires some serious looking (and page turning) to figure out the rules.
I believe that Derezel has this mostly correct (except for the part about limiting mystic adept's magic rating (since neither pp nor power focus affect the "rating" itself - only the dice pools). A force foci adds to the Magic dice pool, this is not an increase in the magic rating (e.g., force of a spell).
I am running a Mystic Adept with a 5 Magic and 2 pp in powers.
I had originally misread the rules on what the pp does to the magic and thought I needed to acquire a Power focus in order to restore the Force of my spells.
This is actually incorrect - the result of the pp is to reduce the number of dice rolled for magic rolls but not to change the magic rating.
The same logic would apply to a power focus - since the text between the two is remarkably similar.
So my mystic adept has a force 2 power focus. What this does is to give me back the 2 dice I "lost" for all tests except counterspelling tests (to counter an active casting only).
Your Shaman has a max force of 5 for spells and can roll 8 dice from his magic rating and his power focus - but still can only have 5 "successes" since the number of successes is limited by the force of the spell.
Demerzel
Jul 28 2006, 03:22 PM
Yea, that's actually a decent change to mystical adepts. My previous understanding was probably a hold over from SR3- where adepts had to use a lwoer magic number.
One thing is that the actual spell cap is 2x Magic not Magic. You just face physical drain for overcasting.
Which got me thinking, is it ever advantageous to overcast? Heal spell works on physical drain, but stun is unhealable.
If I'm magic 5, cast a (F/2)+2 [some manipulation for example] spell at force 7, I resist 5p drain. Assume I soak 3 down to 2 physical, then throw a force 3 heal spell, get three successes and use one to lower my time to make permanent. Then wham, I'm only taking heal drain from a force 3, so 1+ heal drain modifier... (Which I don't have off the top of my head). And in the end I'm only taking like 2S or 3S and I'm fine.
However if the original was at force 5 I soak 4S and maybe 4 hits on that test is way harder than the 3 I assumed.. Hummn... You'd have to have a pretty messed up character concept to choose a deal where the caster chooses to take physical damage a lot... Some mental issue like a cutter...
irdeggman
Jul 28 2006, 03:44 PM
But you'd lose precious actions by casting heal on yourself - plus any potential dice pool modifiers for being stunned from the spells previously cast would affect the spellcasting check for the heal spell.
I try not to use the overcasting bit. Physical damage, just seems to be a risky thing to willingly take on a routine basis. Now for those times when you absolutely have to deal it out that is what I envision overcasting is about.
Demerzel
Jul 28 2006, 04:14 PM
Yea, but in those cases where the actions don't matter is where overcasting in the current rules is oddly attractive. Which is those cases where you don't absolutely have to deal it out, and can take those extra actions.
ThreeGee
Jul 28 2006, 06:33 PM
In the right situation, overcasting a Stunball can be a melee breaker in SR4, the sammies then just have to mop up while the mage Heals himself.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Jul 28 2006, 06:54 PM
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Which got me thinking, is it ever advantageous to overcast? Heal spell works on physical drain, but stun is unhealable. |
Sure it can be advantageous to overcast, even without healing
Ex: overcasting stunbolt at say, force 10 (drain f/2-1 = 4) will almost certainly (barring extremes of luck) drop any one opponent, assuming no counterspelling.
And while you may take a box or two of physical damage, consider if your opponent was an orc or troll with an assault rifle, that should be much preferred to him getting 2 or 3 more initiative passes to throw burst fire your way, so you're much better off.
Demerzel
Jul 28 2006, 08:21 PM
I mean froma pure drain perspective. PErhaps adding 1 to the force to make it physical means you're better off purely in the drain sense...
Mr. Unpronounceable
Jul 28 2006, 09:10 PM
In that case, maybe if you're a dwarf/orc/troll and have those free body points / additional physical damage boxes.
Demerzel
Jul 28 2006, 10:07 PM
So here's an example of someone taking physical drain on purpose just because he can. I know this is a little silly, but that's my point.
Mr Mage has:
Wil 5
Log 4
Mag 5
Spellcasting 5
He starts out with no damage at all.
Casts a spell with drain (F/2) + 2
If at force 5, it’s 4s, he has 9 dice to resist drain and succeeds on 1/3 of them so he takes 1s. In one hour of complete rest he’s back at zero damage.
If at force 6, it’s 5p, same 3 hits on drain resistance so he bleeds a little and takes 2p. So he casts heal (2p no modifiers) at force 3. 9 dice gets 3 successes on average. He spends 2 of the hits to heal the 2 boxes and the other hit to reduce the time of sustaining by 1 turn to make permanent. I don’t recall off the top of my head drain on Heal, but I’m sure it’s at worst (F/2) + 2, so that’s 3s drain, and he averages 3 hits on drain resistance, so no prob. (On average) So after a few (3 or 4?) combat turns he’s back at zero boxes.
So which was better from start to finish, 1 hour or less than 15 seconds?
fool
Jul 29 2006, 09:31 PM
a couple of small points.
1 in another thread people were talking about making a house rule that you scouldn't use heal on drain damage for just this reason.
2 1/3 successes may be average, but bad luck happens, that's why we use dice.
3 in sr3 your magic rating made a difference as to things like the area of the spell, so adding directly to m rating was a big boost. Now, it's less so in sr4 so only adding dice makes it more consistent with other foci
4 saying it takes alot of page turning to figure out these rules is an uinderstatement. I figure I'll finally uinderstand the matrix rules about when sr5 is out.
Demerzel
Jul 29 2006, 11:00 PM
I'm less inclined to house rule that drain physicial is unhealable for this possible exploit. But I think anyone who purposefully does that to themselves repeatadely would have to be a little on the messed up side and I'd probably impose something pretty harsh on him.
I think that's probably one of the keys to the rules, no matter how exploitable they are it'll come down to the GM's ability to mitigate exploits. And that is why MMORPGs have so many flaws, it's impossible to invent a ruleset that's perfectly lacking in exploitability, and a MMORPG can't have GMs watching and making decisions like a real GM does in a table top RPG.
I think a lot of the mechanics issues are better left and the GM can work with them, than trying to burden the ruleset with a serious addition of unexploitability code. After all this is not a game run by a machine, the unexploitability code is "final GM approval".
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