Argh....powergamer-heart...has....failure....can´t....stand....the...pain....argllllärks....*beee
eeeeeeep*^^

*chuckles* I see my good deed for the day is done.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly what PirateChef said. I have been playing since 2nd edition, and am used to 5 - 8 karma per run. Looking at the errata, it is possible to get up to 15 karma in a single run. 10 or 11 simply requires multiple objectives, some threat, good role playing, humor or drama, and some smarts/right place right time.

I think its great. Character development is slow enough with the Karma system, why not give more karma per run. Especially if you are using the errata Attribute cost (5 x new level in karma OUCH!)

And the increase in Karma means that a magically themed normal run is the right karma range for your first 1~3 grades. Assuming you GM okays it (since that's require for all Deeds).

From worst Ordeal (in 2nd, where you lost the karma, making it strictly worse then not doing it at all), to the best ordeal in 4A (where the party doesn't even have to be in above average danger for your first few grades). But always still up to the GM.

Ugh I can't believe it used to forfeit the karma, I'd forgotten that. *shudder*

Sure, as long as his right cyber arm is pumped up to 9

Bah, if the x1.5 limit isn't an actual rule it should be.

Ahaaaaa....so there´s a little Powergamer in everyone of us, eh?^^

I know I can dump AGI and just get a cyberarm customized up to 6 with the +3 enhancements... why can't I dump CHA and get a CHA 6 cybermouth? If you can skillsoft a social skill, I don't see why not.

I mean, I do... I just find the idea hilarious, of this awkward ork staring down in surprise at his cybermouth as it spouts out something really smooth, running the Con (Seduction) skillsoft it's running.

Becouse Charisma incorporates so much more than just how you speak

's true. Wishful thinking, really.

This wins.


Anyway, back on the subject of the meditation ordeal. If you have a magical group for initiation, then you could just buy your friends the spell formulae for draining strength, charisma, reaction, and intuition. Then you can get the test thresholds down under 4 fairly reliably (voluntarily forfeit your resistance roll.)

This is really min-maxing and i don´t think my GM would allow this. Yours?^^

Not really. First it costs the price of the spell formulae. Then, the group will likely ask the same from you, so you need to learn at least one of these spells too. So you spend money and don't really save karma, but you learn a spell in the process (not the best one though).

Since I am the GM, if it is by the RAW, yes.

Aaaaah, where do you play? May i join?^^

Lol!

I'll admit, it sets off my 'wonky-meter' but by RAW it's not illegal I have to agree.

It's certainly against the RAI obviously. :shrug:

We were just discussing rigging it with drugs so I guess we have no room to complain

The RAW states "The character must spend time in daily meditation, trying
to consciously bring the physical, mental, and astral aspects of
her being into perfect balance. To achieve this, the character
must succeed in two Extended Tests"

It seems clear to me that if your character is deliberately throwing those aspects OUT of balance, though the use of either drugs or sustained spells, then he will no more succeed than if you try to rebalance your car tires by adding weights to the sidewalls. You may succeed at your tests, but you will fail at your intended purpose.

In short: Drugs & Magic let you successfully meditate, but do not bring your aspects into balance. No discount for you.

Alternately, let it succeed but slap the new Initiate with a Severe Addiction to the spell or drug, and have him unable to gain the benefits of initiation while he is not under the influence. ...yeah, I like that more, I think, it makes a lot of metaphysical sense.

I disagree. I think the drugs, at least, make perfect sense, and aren't unbalanced from a game mechanics point of view. Meditation has been equated to varying degrees of substance use (from incense, which is fairly harmless, to peyote) forever, so it's hardly against the spirit of the Ordeal. As for game mechanics: you're going to have to keep yourself constantly dosed with those drugs, so you need to buy enough to last for 4*grade straight days, and you have to be high on them for up to 4*grade straight days. That's going to be nontrivially expensive and would certainly call for an addiction test or two legitimately without having to wave your GM balls around.

I'd also allow magic as long as the spells/powers were cast and sustained only by the character undergoing the Ordeal (meaning no sustaining foci).

Teach your Familiar that you made one of your earlier ordeals to create and summon attribute changing spells and have him cast and sustain them on you.
Whoever said you had to do that stuff all by your lonely self? O.o

Nothing in the rules, but everything in the spirit of them. Meditation isn't something that anyone can "help" you with aside from teaching you the basics of it. You have to do it yourself.

Well . . the problem here is, that you need what?
Low mental attributes?
Or low physical attributes?
In any case, lowering mental attributes . . i can not think of any single better way to get a head empty . . more or less what meditation is to me.
think of nothing, be calm. think of nothing. no, do NOT think of the stay tuft marshmallow man . . damn it ithought about the marshmallow man . . damn it, i thought something . . i am still doing it . . geez, this is harder than i thought it would be . . hmm, now i am hungry . . the fridge is empty . . < = yeah, pretty much failed at that one ^^

Lowering physical attributes: makes you stay frigging put, makes you stay frigging calm, makes you concentrate and meditate because you can't do anything else right now. *snooooreeeeee* < = ok, you failed again.

I didn't say using spells violated the spirit of the rules. I said someone (or something, in the case of a familiar) using spells on you violated the spirit.

Using spells on yourself is perfectly fine, IMO.

You can do it as a group thingie, so outside help is not even against the spirit of the rules . . you know, concerning meditation and initiation, spirit of the rules is actually a nice enough pun ^^

IMO, "help from a magical group" in this instance means that they help keep the area purified to your tradition, keep the drugs (if using them) flowing, have food and drink ready when you need them, etc. Not doing your ordeal for you

Could be a business-idea. The "karma-fuckers"...."being bored by stupid ordeals, no time to learn spells, need some help? Come to the Karma-Fuckers, we do it for you"....at a price. Yeah.^^

In the world of shadowrun, karma IS a bitch after all . . so why not? ^^

Something to consider is that "real world" meditation aids don't have to worry about actually achieving the metaphysical goods so just because they help relax mundanes when they are "meditating" doesn't mean that they work for a Mage who needs to "MEDITATE" to Initiate. I agree with RedeemerofOgar on this one.

Nevermind.

Agreed, Not sure where this is going anymore...